Dancer Archive
Thread: 30 Minutes in the Theed Cantina
Drygo
Mon Aug 23, 2004 3:36 pm
#53
No...I thought about the male/female thing too. But, in a way, that's kind of irrelevant in that that is never anything that anybody can change as far as tipping goes. The idea of trying to push for male dancers getting more credits seems a bit ridiculous. 
I mean, if I was *only* doing it for the money, I could have been female, but I'd rather play male. And, I'll be honest, I seem to have acquired a *small* following of female patrons, and I'm not sure how comfortable that makes me. LOL I do think women get tipped more, but whatever, it's not a valid fight worth fighting, IMO.
I mean, if I was *only* doing it for the money, I could have been female, but I'd rather play male. And, I'll be honest, I seem to have acquired a *small* following of female patrons, and I'm not sure how comfortable that makes me. LOL I do think women get tipped more, but whatever, it's not a valid fight worth fighting, IMO.Also, one thing I want to bring up is that not everybody has the same reasons for becoming an entertainer. Obviously, Irina has done a very good job of making a living entertaining by actively socializing with the crowd. That's one method of entertaining, and I'm glad that works for her.
On the other hand, I never really wanted to do that very much. Sure I talk to people and stuff. But, it's not something I try to be uber active about, it's just not my style. The main reason I picked up entertaining is because I thought performing would be fun. And for me, personally, performing doesn't mean talking to people. It means choosing dances, songs, music, instruments, flourishes, and effects to create an interesting performance. I think that's also why I like the Cantina Crawls, because of the in sync dancing and matching outfits. It's also why one of my favorite things to do as an entertainer is to be part of troupe and put on shows. And, when I was part of a troupe, I made fairly decent money doing it. So, while some people may be able to make 100K+ per night by chatting with people, I pretty much will put on a show with people once a week or so and make my "entertaining" money that way. It's also why I don't really care too much if I get tipped nightly in Cantinas just by dancing or playing music. It's very difficult to get everyone in the Cantinas to actually perform, you very much get lost in a crowd, and IMO one person doing their thing is not nearly as interesting as 4+ people putting on a show.
So, I don't choose to engage the patron in conversation, and don't expect to get tips. But, I do expect payment and tips by performing in a band, and I always get them. It's just not as lucrative as the uber (female) socializers. 
On a day to day basis, however, what I would like to be able to make an income with is selling services, ie buffs, not by conversation. Unfortunately, at the moment, that is not an option for me. And, I think it's important that it be an option not only for myself but for others who would like to have that method of making money as well.
So, basically, you know...great if you're able to make lots of tips through conversation. But, all I'm asking is that people not look down on others for "whining" about being unable to make money through buffs if that is there particular method of trying to make money. It's part of our repertoire, and we should be able to use it. Right now, we can't.
kirah_ashlin
Mon Aug 23, 2004 4:41 pm
#54
Two things - 1) Did you happen to see my post a couple replies below the one you are quoting where I discussed a recent experience in the Coronet cantina? 2) Please reread what you quoted. I did not say I spent ALL of my time in my cantina. The reason for that is because I don't. Just last night Roho and I were in Moenia, of all places, surprising several players there with our presence. We go to Theed, Coronet . . . and yes, Tatooine, mostly. We also go to player city cantinas run by other entertainer friends and even pop into the wilderness outposts once in a while (as discouraging as that can be . . .).
Ariven wrote:
kirah_ashlin wrote:
I have to say I find it hard to believe you can't find live entertainers on one of the largest entertainer servers there is. Bria is famous for our entertainers. I don't know when you play the game, but there is generally a good number of entertainers (masters to leveling) around much of the time. I understand that the search function is not exactly working according to plan (like that's a surprise . . . ) but we do have an entertainer chat channel where you can usually find someone ATK. Just type /chat join Bria.ent (someone will correct me if I got that wrong, I'm sure
You can add myself, Kirahfaye, to your list. I'm sure Roho (master musician) wouldn't mind if I offered to add him to your list, as well. We are usually on Naboo and our cantina is Bishops' Sanctuary in Veritas.
You'll find that about the only time I refuse to buff someone is when I politely explain that I cannot buff an overt member of the opposing faction.
I dont find it hard to believe when you take into account this comment you made "We are usually on Naboo and our cantina is Bishops' Sanctuary in Veritas"
Most of us are going to hit the big two, and rarely go hunting into random player cantinas... we get our buffs in coro or theed and go looking for an entertainer in one of those cities.
In fact on Sunday I spent 20 minutes idling in the theed cantina waiting for someone to say anything in spatial to indicate that they were anything but a zombie so I could ensure a live person got the specific healing XP..
Drygo
Mon Aug 23, 2004 6:39 pm
#55
Tiaga posted over on the Entertainer forum an experiment that he performed a couple nights ago. I decided to perform my own experiment tonight.
Precursor to the tale: Our resident Kettemoor Coronet buffbot, Shalina, is apparently on vacation. Someone on the Kettemoor forums posted a thread called, "I Miss Shalina," and was complaining about the lack of entertainers, which is what prompted me to do this experiment. I think if you'll read below it addresses, and validates many points I've already made in this thread, including the supposed lack of entertainers, as well as not charging for mind buffs. Read on.
"
Instead of getting angry when I saw the title of this post, I decided to do an experiment of my own and post the results.
Tonight, I spent 2 hours in Coronet. Shalina, of course, was not there. However, there was a musician buffbot. Predictably, due to the musician buffbot there were no live Master Musicians. There were, however, 3 live Master Dancers buffing becauseword must have caught on, and they knew they could be useful and earn some money while Shalina was gone. I was one of them.
In those 2 hours I received 10 requests for buffs. I consider that to be fair, considering there were 2 other live masters there competing for business. One was female and rather aggressive, so she got the majority of the business. This is fine, of course. It's healthy competition, unlike with buffbots. I have tried several times to go while Shalina was there, and on more than one occasion did not recieve even one request in the course of 3 hours.
I normally ask for a payment of 5k when I buff. However, tonight, as part of my experiment, I didn't ask for anything. Of those 10 people I buffed, 6 of them paid me nothing, 3 of them paid me less than 5k, and one paid me my standard price of 5k. I contribute part of this to people expecting buffs to be free and not realizing the value of my time when I could have been out doing other things. My original intent tonight was to go faction farming, but I decided to do this experiment instead. So, for 2 hours I was paid about 15k, instead of making about 100K+ worth of credits I could have made if I had done rebel missions instead.
Four out of the ten people I buffed were surprised when I told them it took me 3.5 minutes to buff. They expected it to take 5 minutes. Having never used Shalina, I don't know this for a fact, but I suspect Shalina's macro tells people to watch or listen for 5 minutes? Anyone can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. Also, four out of the ten were timing themselves. Whereas, as a live buffer, I feel that is my job to do in order to provide better, worry free service. One person refused to stop watching until his five minutes were up, that he was timing. More conditioning by buffbots.
I only submit these numbers for your consideration. It's up to you to draw your own conclusions."
Isabow
Mon Aug 23, 2004 8:14 pm
#56
Ok, consider this (buffbot) theory:
Production live buff factory gets automated (buffbot)= layoffs (out of work dancers)
automation brings in new customers because it's more efficient= management is very happy (the buffbot owner)
new customers getting what they need when they need it = who cares about the dancers? (refer to above point about happy management)
Now, if I were the type of person who saw the above loophole in the system, you can bet ur sweet Aunt Martha's baked bean recipe that I would do anything and everything I could think of to exploit it. Logically speaking, that's all this buffbot system is - a loophole in the logic of SOE development. (hold it! Did I use 'logic' and 'SOE' in the same sentence? oops! *blushes*) Isn't it our jobs as customers of SOE to find all their loopholes and exploit them? Isn't that what makes them make more loopholes for us?
Now, to countermand this particular dancing/buff exploit, what you have to do is get out there and figure out a way to make money utilizing the Master Dancer skills you've worked hard for. How do you do that, you say? The simpliest way to enhance automation (not destroy - automation will never go away) is to personalize it. Talk to the customers (I don't tolerate rudeness but I'm personally not rude when faced with it. The fine art of (verbal) war is used.) Make your customers feel special and, well, dare I say it? Appreciated. I'm not saying fall in love with them but liking their time and conversation is a start. Spend time with them - even if it's only for a couple of min. And, no, I don't beg for tips. Never have. Never will. And I make a pretty decent living. And it's a complete turn-off for me to be confronted in a cantina with "Tip your dancers! They have families to feed, too, you know!" or the ever popular "Tip me! I'm worth it!" And as a Master Dancer, I'm never afk for more than the time it takes to get a cup of coffee or go on a bio-break. It's not professional and it ruins the customer experience.
So what's with the brainstorming instead of the complaining? Isn't there ANYTHING that you can do with that Master Dancer skill you've just worked days or weeks to get? Isn't there a loophole in the system that YOU CAN FIND to help out your other Master Dancers? I've thought of one and it's in the production stages now with a guild that I'm considering. It's a pretty damn good idea, too and I'm happy to have the support of my European friends to bring it to life. Once it's in full production, I'll post another thread on it and explain it all. The travelling band idea is awesome! The troupe travel is awesome! The Cantina Crawls are awesome! The private parties are awesome! Is there anything else about being a Master Dancer that's awesome?
And now that Drygo and I have had a chat on another thread about buffs, I can appreciate the fine art of charging for your valuable service. I'll use that formula, Drygo, for the 3 min 10 sec buff. And could you point me to a vendor that has that awesome drink so we can party together?
Toshee
Esharra
Mon Aug 23, 2004 9:42 pm
#57
Well..I'm completely drained..sucked dry of all spare energy. All of our in-game efforts have been focused toward encouraging atk play and live entertainer buffing since May. Today I logged on to find that a player was spamming the entertainer channel we started a couple of months ago with "boycott live entertainers" every15 seconds or so. Yes..I reported the spammer, as did Til. I haven't received a CSR response but Til received an e-mail saying something to the effect that the spammer would not be removed or quieted because it would conflict with his "right to free speech".
I feel like we've been trying to hold back a river with our bare hands. So we're returning to our quiet little Tatooine town. We'll be buffing in the cantina there (we don't own the cantina..the owner can't be in game right now but does keep the maintenance up & I'm on admin just to make sure all is well). And when the developers have decided how they will address the problem of unattended gameplay in their game, we'll still be around and we'll still be buffing.
After all those months hunting for that hermit after launch, I've ignored him all summer. So I'll be busting out the vk and Til is going to dust off his rifle and we're going to finish all the combat quests we've been wanting to do before we both drop our weapons for good andmaster musician. I'm 6 badges short of number 75 and that's been a goal for a while now too.
I arrived in Kraytia shortly after dark tonight (Til's new semester started tonight, he'll come home tomorrow). Quiet..peaceful..no spam..no buffbots. It was good to be home. So what have I learned over summer vacation? When we put our minds to it, we can do a lot of things but there is little we can do aboutthe human condition'snatural gravitation toward greed and laziness. One of my personal heros (JaronLanier)once quoted what he said was an Indian proverb (although I think he made it up), "You can't awaken a man who is pretending to be asleep".
PoetDancer
Mon Aug 23, 2004 10:58 pm
#58
Whatdo we actually "sell?" That's a very good question. In order to answer that, we have to look at the situation we are in and honestly say to ourselves if what we can do for a character's statistics is really a sellable product. Honestly. How much is a mere "/" command worth? Obviously, the "/" command in the form of an /invite or a /setperform is valuable to somebody, otherwise there wouldn't be so many people running around wanting them, basing their entire game enjoyment on them, and purchasing accounts just to issue them.
But is it something that you sell? I don't think you can. How much does a "/" command cost? Nothing. Your time? How can it when you do not even need to be at the keys to issue them? It doesn't even cost the move of a finger these days.
However, your time is valuable. And its valuable only insofar as you use it to the fullest. I think Euclase is making a valid point about the professions as they exist now. You may disagree with her all you want, but as she says, she is making a pretty good living doing what she does. She can play this profession today. I can play this profession today. And the only way we are able to do so is that we don't go in to a cantina and expect to sell buffs and BF healing.
And I don't care how many "/" commands you give or how many BF ticks go down because of you. The truth is that nobody owes you anything in there. Some say they should, but for what? Simply because you have a right to it? What did you do to earn it? Type in a preprogrammed macro? Do a "/" command? Invest time in this thing? Why this thing and not something else? If the thing you get paid for is so easy for your computer to do for you, then why should your presence behind the keys make it more valuable?
These are questions our detractors and many on these boards use to justify why these professions are broken. And if you think that we should sell "/" commands, then its no wonder you believe they are broken. But if they are broken so badly, then why is it that performers like Euclase and I are coming out of the cantina with credits? Why is it I can go in to Briha's cantina and come away with credits if she can give away "/" commands better than I? All they need is her, but if all they need is her, why is it I am paid anything at all?
Its because your ability to give out a large amount of effective "/" commands is totally unrelated to your ability to come out of the cantina with credits. The two have nothing to do with one another. But you do have to do something. You have to put on a show. And if in the process of putting on a show you get a request for a buff, simply give it and concentrate on the show. If someone requests a buff and you are buffing someone else, simply respond quicly and keep putting on a show. Because if you are putting on a show, the patrons really don't care about the time. They are watching you too much to care.
But your show has to consist of more than "Doyou want a +5% buff for 3k?" And that means you have to think up jokes. Think of responding to answers. Think of things that will get your audience truly enamored with your cantina performance that they'll tip you regardless of whether you give them a "/" command or not. Sometimes you have to draw them out of their shells, but you have all the time in the world to try. After all, they have nothing better to do then sit and observe the world around them for 3.5 minutes or so.
I never made the rules. These are HARD professions and they require a ton of skill. The problem I see for many dancers is that the skills they believe are important are the skills that are so unimportant in truth. The skills will always be your effort to breathe life into the atmosphere of those grey drab walls to everyone, equally, regardless if they get a "/" command from you or not. I kid you not when I tell you that the best performers do not need to even be /watched at all to walk away from the cantinas with credits. But you need to be polished and prepared. You need to work like a real improvisational actor, knowing that the best improvisational performers rehearse and refine long before they understand their craft and can make a living from it.
And I'm not saying its easy. Its hard work. But you can get better at it. There are techniques that are sure fire tip getters. But you also have to be patient. A big tipper might not give you anything on his first encounter. Maybe not even his second. But on your third encounter, BOOM! 50K.
The absolute best thing about these professions is that you can go pretty much anywhere there are players, perform, and walk away with credits for doing crazy, funny, and entertaining things. The worst part about it is you have no guarantee you'll do that. A lot are looking for that guarantee here. And I'm telling you your biggest guarantor of success is your cantina conduct and show. If you can perfect that, you'll walk away from even a buffbot's cantina with credits.
Want to learn how, Drygo? Stick around. I'll share with you all some performance tips to get tips.
IrinaStarsinger
Tue Aug 24, 2004 12:46 am
#60
Draygo.. if Describing peoples BEHAVIOR is insulting... then so be it. I didn'y call anyone names. I didnt single anyone out except to say that i thought Your attitude was counterproductive. If you have a different attitude in-game fine. Then it doesnt apply.
The fact remains that I DID accurately describe a LOT of the attitudes and behavior of a LOT of he people in our profession. And if people are insulted by it... Well gee, its THEIR behavior.
And i still have to totally disagree with you on the economics. The fact that we are in a Game world does not alter basic Human Behavior. People will STILL buy a service from where they perceive the best value for their money. FACT. Not supposition. Simple economics and its always BEEN a FACT. You can Deny if you choose to but it doesnt make it any LESS of a fact for your denying it.
Yes the buffbots create an artificial market place that tends to drive down prices. Supply determines price. If the supply is plentiful the price declines. Buffbots make the supply very high. But keep in mind, rarity in and of itself does not ALWAYS push the price up. If the PERCEIVED value of the service itself is not high enough to make people seek it out then the price will NOT mirror supply. Right now people perceive that minds buffs are readily available and they buy them. If the buffbots disappear and we dont fill the gap by being available then its JUST as likely that people will stop Buying mindbuffs and simply get by with food and drugs and the like.
And true other profession SET prices.. BUT.... if someone else sets a lower price for the same quality service, guess who gets the business? Cailet is a Master Doctor. She hates setting around for long periods of time buffing. So she sets HER price at 9k for top quality buffs and with 4 other doctors setting there spamming SHE gets all the business. In a short period of time she can use up her buffs and go home. The other Doctors DO set prices... anywhere from 10k to 15k and They sit there idle while Cailet takes all their business away.
The BUYER determines Value. Period.
The BUYER determines Price. Period.
No matter WHAT price you set. The Buyer is only going to buy YOUR service or product if he/she perceives it of being of MORE Value to them than what someone else offers and of more Value than they money you ask. The existance of buffbots doesnt change that. Game mechanics dont change that.
I DONT make tips by buffing. I havent Buffed anyone in so long I'm not even sure if I remember how to. I earn my tips by entertaining and offerring Value that my customers can't get from buffbots.
Its human behavior that counts.
Drygo
Tue Aug 24, 2004 12:58 am
#61
IrinaStarsinger wrote:
Draygo.. if Describing peoples BEHAVIOR is insulting... then so be it. I didn'y call anyone names. I didnt single anyone out except to say that i thought Your attitude was counterproductive. If you have a different attitude in-game fine. Then it doesnt apply.
First, please, my name is Drygo...there's no a. You keep putting in an a.
I apologize if I took what you said the wrong way. However, you responded to my post, and I thought you were talking about me. And, generally, when you do post these views you never make any qualifiers. Your "tone" is such that we are all like that. However, I will try to cut through that and assume that when you say this type of thing you aren't talking about me.
The fact remains that I DID accurately describe a LOT of the attitudes and behavior of a LOT of he people in our profession. And if people are insulted by it... Well gee, its THEIR behavior.
And i still have to totally disagree with you on the economics. The fact that we are in a Game world does not alter basic Human Behavior. People will STILL buy a service from where they perceive the best value for their money. FACT. Not supposition. Simple economics and its always BEEN a FACT. You can Deny if you choose to but it doesnt make it any LESS of a fact for your denying it.
Yes the buffbots create an artificial market place that tends to drive down prices. Supply determines price. If the supply is plentiful the price declines. Buffbots make the supply very high. But keep in mind, rarity in and of itself does not ALWAYS push the price up. If the PERCEIVED value of the service itself is not high enough to make people seek it out then the price will NOT mirror supply. Right now people perceive that minds buffs are readily available and they buy them. If the buffbots disappear and we dont fill the gap by being available then its JUST as likely that people will stop Buying mindbuffs and simply get by with food and drugs and the like.
And true other profession SET prices.. BUT.... if someone else sets a lower price for the same quality service, guess who gets the business? Cailet is a Master Doctor. She hates setting around for long periods of time buffing. So she sets HER price at 9k for top quality buffs and with 4 other doctors setting there spamming SHE gets all the business. In a short period of time she can use up her buffs and go home. The other Doctors DO set prices... anywhere from 10k to 15k and They sit there idle while Cailet takes all their business away.
The BUYER determines Value. Period.
The BUYER determines Price. Period.
No matter WHAT price you set. The Buyer is only going to buy YOUR service or product if he/she perceives it of being of MORE Value to them than what someone else offers and of more Value than they money you ask. The existance of buffbots doesnt change that. Game mechanics dont change that.
I DONT make tips by buffing. I havent Buffed anyone in so long I'm not even sure if I remember how to. I earn my tips by entertaining and offerring Value that my customers can't get from buffbots.
Its human behavior that counts.
Ok. Let's see if I can explain this. Everything you say about the economics is true. Supply and demand, value, buyer determining value, etc. All true. However, as you also say the buffbots create an artificial marketplace. I am fighting to *remove* that artificial market place so that the game can be played the way it was meant to be played. So that live dancers and musicians can again become economically viable, and that the competition that takes place in game can be healthy, true competition. Competition based on who's the better buffer and entertainer. Not competition that creates a monopoly for buffbots. You have to remove the buffbots from the equation in order to make the game work the way it's supposed to work, and to allow the real entertainers to get into the market. I am trying to make real entertainers just as viable economically as every single other profession. The other professions don't have to deal with this artificial marketplace. Or, at the very least, when the hologrind is over, they won't have to. Entertainers, however, will still have to deal with this until buffbots aren't as good as a live player. The game mechanics need to be changed so that people who want to actually play as entertainers can play entertainers and survive economically.
picklesSW
Tue Aug 24, 2004 4:19 am
#62
Why do discussions over buffbots, which most people agree are a plague, often end up tailspinning into "Yeah, buttbots suck, but so do you if you can't compete with em". You shouldn't have to compete with em, right? Isn't that the point of the thread?
For me, it ain't about whether I can compete or not. I don't care how much money I make dancing. The ability to progress a character while AFK in any online game is inherently damaging to the game world, the playing environment, and the sense of accomplishment and pride in reaching your goals.
For me, it ain't about whether I can compete or not. I don't care how much money I make dancing. The ability to progress a character while AFK in any online game is inherently damaging to the game world, the playing environment, and the sense of accomplishment and pride in reaching your goals.
Esharra
Tue Aug 24, 2004 4:55 am
#63
That's my big concern too, Javy. The credits is the least of my worries for myself (I have millions & give a lot away). I am concerned that there be a means for entertainers to gain income via entertaining. This is important to the long term viability of our professions. Theeconomic concern is just one game balance dynamic (perhaps the most obvious to us) effected by unattended play. Player demographicsdrive design decisions regarding changes to and content forour professions.
picklesSW wrote:
Why do discussions over buffbots, which most people agree are a plague, often end up tailspinning into "Yeah, buttbots suck, but so do you if you can't compete with em". You shouldn't have to compete with em, right? Isn't that the point of the thread?
For me, it ain't about whether I can compete or not. I don't care how much money I make dancing. The ability to progress a character while AFK in any online game is inherently damaging to the game world, the playing environment, and the sense of accomplishment and pride in reaching your goals.
Drygo
Tue Aug 24, 2004 4:59 am
#64
PoetDancer wrote:
Want to learn how, Drygo? Stick around. I'll share with you all some performance tips to get tips.
Panthu, I'm warning you, you may very well have to report this thread today. It's taking all in my power not to be nasty right now.
Message Edited by Drygo on 08-24-2004 05:00 AM
Anjh
Tue Aug 24, 2004 5:16 am
#65
/hug drygo
you seem to me to be a very open-minded, approachable, friendly person drygo... i'm pretty sure you've been as creative as any of us about how to make a living