CUEmu - Thread Posts

akothas

Tue Dec 14, 2004 3:53 pm

Isleh wrote:

Regarding Resources:

But as you pointed out, and I agree with, is that the ultimate resource is real life time. All the materials and steps you mentioned to get from novice Artisan to master Architect are to make the artisan invest real life time.

Mastering dancer and musician is basically free, in game. But look how long SOE tries to make it take to do. SOE wanted to enforce the investment of real life time. SOE tried to do so without requiring in game resources.

After all, whatever profession, they should all take about the same amount of time to master. Someone willing to play a 46hr marathon over the weekend should progress just as far as someone wanting to play only 2hrs a night for 23 days.

That brings me to the Macro system:

It's a necessary evil because for the most part, it's master of nothing for the crafting professions and grinding out a profession is boring. Macros do help. I mastered Droid Eng. with them. But even with macros, I had to do it ATK (it was actually faster trimming out some of the macros after a while). The macro system reduces the investment of real life time.

This is where the breakdown begins. SOE wants people to invest real life ATK time into building our characters. It makes the player feel like we've accomplished something worthwhile and the game worth playing. If that wasn't the case, we would have all started out as masters in our chosen profession. The macro system bypasses the real life ATK time for dancers and musicians.

Back to the Ultimate Resource, Real life time:

Crafting professions, despite the macro system, still have to invest real ATK life time. Resources shift, taking up harvesters, finding a good resource spots by surveying, placing harvesters, Maintaining harvesters, Creating schematics to run in a factory, loading materials into factories, etc. all take up real ATK life time. In the end, it is the real life ATK time that the good Crafter invests in finding and collecting good resources that beats out the crafter who just grabs the finds whatever resources are available with minimal effort. The macro system has no effect on them and actually helps them. It is how it should be. the amount of effort a player puts in ATK will give them a reward proportional to their effort.

Dancer/Musician professions, because of the macro system, do not have to invest real ATK life time. The macro system has actually helps them (I've seen 2 entertainers cerograph a duet using macros). But the amount of effort a player puts in ATK has little or no reward proportional to their effort. In fact, buffbots reap most of the benefits because they simply build up a bigger client base just by being 23/7 and people are creatures of habit. The term 'Bass ackwards' comes to my mind when it comes to reward proportional to the effort.

Now we get to play style and the reason why I made the artisan comparison:

What if Artisans who prefer to play on Naboo get to bypass all the hassle of gathering resources. While Artisans who prefer to play on Corellia and other planets do not?

From what I gather, your answer would be to simply move to Naboo. It is just a matter of play style after all. Am I correct?

My answer on the other hand is that there is a fundamental flaw in the system that contradicts the design and it needs to be addressed.

I will concur, most of the statements you made are just and true. Most of the other professions require ATK at some point to be able to progress and eventually master. Even at masteralmost all professions still require you to be ATK to use your skills.

Entertainer profession do not require this, except logging, training, and hitting the macro button. Perhaps thats what developers intended though, to make a profession that can have an impact on other professions with very little mechanical effort involved. Perhaps they thought most people that play entertainers will have one of two objectives: 1.To be Social (a live game chat) and 2.To Heal andBuff. If being social was not their primary objective, then buffbotswouldnt be an issue. Most of the buffbots you see have their own social click, and runpurely for their secondary objective.

I dont know if I am hitting the buttons, but from what I get of your thinking, you are looking for something totally different than what the game has to offer at this point. Simply "remove" the primary objective. People can still socialize with whom they want to. From what I can gather, you seem to be looking for an Entertainer profession that has the factors of the crafting and combat professions in a way. An entertainer that has to invoke in game resources of some kind as well as time. An entertainer that has to be subject to in game mechanics of some kind to be able to progress, and once master must still be subject to various mechanics to be able to perform at their peak level.An entertainer class that dosent care about macros because its far more deep than whatit offers now.

If they made an Entertainer class that devoted to the mechanics as the other professions are, then macros wouldnt be a problem. So, Ill go as far as saying macros are not really your problem now, it is the way the Developers have made the /flourish professions.

_________________________________________________
Phrixus -- Eraok -- Rimar
Elder Jedi -- Elder BH -- NGE Structures
rN Phrixus - The Dark Lord of Tempest Nr
_________________________________________________
g.~~[{{{{{{{{{ m~~gXX~~q}}}F~~\~~gggggggggggggggggg~~)
.Dark Saber Duelist.

Reachwind

Tue Dec 14, 2004 5:39 pm

#626

akothas: If the developers had intended for entertainer to be played 100% AFK they would not have removed experience from band flourishes just prior to launch (the way AFK skill gain was done). Also they wouldn't have made repeated comments that the macro system is NOT working as intended.

akothas

Tue Dec 14, 2004 6:11 pm

#627

Reachwind wrote:
akothas: If the developers had intended for entertainer to be played 100% AFK they would not have removed experience from band flourishes just prior to launch (the way AFK skill gain was done). Also they wouldn't have made repeated comments that the macro system is NOT working as intended.

I dont think they actually intended entertainers to be played afk, but they knew the possability was there for sure. Also, with as many buffbots that are about, we know for a fact they endorse this kind of play at this time.

As for the macro system, it is working as intended. They even had a friday feature on it. Some developers may not like the "afk" play aspect, but most dont mind and turn a blind eye to it. Weather you personally like it or not, alot of players in alot of different classes play AFK in one way or another. Perhaps if they come up with a way to fix the entertainer profession and not make it a /flourish class there would be no need for afk macros so much, kind of like doctor. Doctors can buff AFK, but still require ATK play to get the resources needed for buffs. Entertainers can be played totally AFK. I personally dont have a problem with it as you may well know, but I do see it upsets alot of people. I would certainly endorse an idea that required more ATK play while not completely taking away the ability to AFK buff.

Message Edited by akothas on 12-14-2004 05:14 PM

_________________________________________________
Phrixus -- Eraok -- Rimar
Elder Jedi -- Elder BH -- NGE Structures
rN Phrixus - The Dark Lord of Tempest Nr
_________________________________________________
g.~~[{{{{{{{{{ m~~gXX~~q}}}F~~\~~gggggggggggggggggg~~)
.Dark Saber Duelist.

Isleh

Thu Dec 16, 2004 2:01 am

#628

akothas wrote:

I will concur, most of the statements you made are just and true. Most of the other professions require ATK at some point to be able to progress and eventually master. Even at masteralmost all professions still require you to be ATK to use your skills.

Entertainer profession do not require this, except logging, training, and hitting the macro button. Perhaps thats what developers intended though, to make a profession that can have an impact on other professions with very little mechanical effort involved. Perhaps they thought most people that play entertainers will have one of two objectives: 1.To be Social (a live game chat) and 2.To Heal andBuff. If being social was not their primary objective, then buffbotswouldnt be an issue. Most of the buffbots you see have their own social click, and runpurely for their secondary objective.

I dont know if I am hitting the buttons, but from what I get of your thinking, you are looking for something totally different than what the game has to offer at this point. Simply "remove" the primary objective. People can still socialize with whom they want to. From what I can gather, you seem to be looking for an Entertainer profession that has the factors of the crafting and combat professions in a way. An entertainer that has to invoke in game resources of some kind as well as time. An entertainer that has to be subject to in game mechanics of some kind to be able to progress, and once master must still be subject to various mechanics to be able to perform at their peak level.An entertainer class that dosent care about macros because its far more deep than whatit offers now.

If they made an Entertainer class that devoted to the mechanics as the other professions are, then macros wouldnt be a problem. So, Ill go as far as saying macros are not really your problem now, it is the way the Developers have made the /flourish professions.

RE: objective # 1 - being social
Well, you don't have to be ANY profession to be social. Surrender your starting profession and walk around with 250 unspent skill points and talk to people. You don't need to create a profession for that.

RE: objective # 2 - To Heal andBuff
Why create a2 moreprofession when there is already 3 healing ( CM, Doc, Medic) and 1 Buffing ( Doc) profession already?

Most people who play MMORPGs want some degree of social contact, otherwise, why play a game where you can interact with others? From what I understand, the Entertainer professions were intended to draw people together. And they DOthat. But if the developers just wanted Entertainer professionslog, train, and hit the macro button, why develop content for the profession?

The profession is there for the players who choose that profession to be entertained and enjoyed. Don't forget that SOE is Sony Online Entertainment.I don't think that they intend to provide and to be known as to provide the ultimate AFK experience. Acomputer cannot be Entertained.A design goal of creating a profession that can have an impact on other professions with very little mechanical effort involved? In other words creating a profession with very little Entertainment value? The simple answer to that is, No. A Waste of development time and resources thatwould generate very little return on the investment. The frogs in test center would be just as effective.

"An entertainer class that dosent care about macros because its far more deep than whatit offers now."

If a compromise can be reached where both sides of this argument can walk away satisfied and have all their needs & wants addressed? Why not.

JenTara

Fri Dec 17, 2004 3:59 am

#629

Isleh wrote:

Xyrdre wrote:

Been watching this thread for a long time now, and I haven't seen any new discussion or debate in a very long time. Nitpicking over the semantics of post after post is not constructive in any way. I continue to debate the usefulness of this thread at this point.

I will listen to the viewpoints of the participants on this question: Is there any reason to continue to have this thread open and active, or is it a horse 50 times beat dead?

I have tried..... I took a step away and cooled off. I brought up the point that Buffbots are the is the same as an crafing profession finding a way to mass produce items at no cost.... point was lost.

I see your point, and I sorta agree... although I'd clarify your post a little better and say doctors finding a way to make their buff meds at no cost... since that's what we are talking about here, that dancers don't need anything but their time to do a buff, so buffbots work so well because they never have to craft their supplies or anything like that, as doctors do... but dancers need money too, especially those of us that are social people as the profession was originally created for... it was to be social while getting mind heals... otherwise they could have just had doctors do it all, and it would be a lot quicker, but they wanted to give us a chance to be social with the dancers in the cantina which is a fun part of the design of the game... and I know that I at least own like 10 different outfits on my dancer character, and I've ordered about four more, and if the tailor wasn't quitting the game, I'd buy em, but as it stands, why should I? I have to grind my ass off with missions and fighting in space to afford any new outfits... all ten of my outfits cost me way more than I have EVER received as a dancer... EVER... how pathetic is that?

Jen'tara Rhee - Force-sensitive Twi'lek - Elder Teras Kasi/ Elder Pikewoman / Jedi / Imperial Pilot (Imperial Inquisition)- Intrepid

Racquel Babylon - Force-sensitive Human - Teras Kasi Elder / Elder Dancer / Master Entertainer / Alliance Pilot (Vortex) - Bria

Teavai Ynai - Force-sensitive Zabrak - Elder Bounty Hunter / Elder Creature Handler / Bounty Hunter / Freelance Pilot (Smuggler's Alliance) - Kettemoor

-

psycocat

Mon Dec 20, 2004 8:46 pm

#630

/sing Trolling,trolling, everyone loves ta go trolling!

Shala-renn Xibotepotl. MCH/MFencer/Dancer. Bria.
Zigie. Musician. Ahazi.
Yhissh. (Slave Trader) Businessman/BH/Rifle. Bria. [Alt]

"Time for our own benchmark. The entertainment we offer."
-Rabenschwinge

JenTara

Tue Dec 21, 2004 5:37 am

#631

Isleh wrote:

It comes down to this

SOE changes the Entertainer profession to require in game resources. Entertainer buffbots can stay.

SOE does not change the Entertainer profession and only requires real life time. Entertainer buffbots have to go.

It all depends onwhatSOE decides to alter. The design vision of the profession or the mechanics of the macro system ( or the entertainer buff system ).

One problem. SOE doesn't see buffbots as a problem. Until we can get them to see them as a abuse of the system that harms the profession, they will never do anything. My dancer on Bria owns about 400k in outfits, all of which have been purchased by running missions and fighting in space and selling the loot... I am 100% serious when I say I'd be surprised if I've ever gotten 10k total in tips... I am not a master dancer yet, so I don't really do buffs, but I know being a master dancer isn't gonna make the money start rollin' in cause nobody is gonna be paying me for buffs when they can go to a certain ~~starport~~ cantina and get FREE buffs 24/7 from a certain buffbot that is ALWAYS there (not going to tell anyone who or where... that would be really damn stupid to "support" him/her like that)

Message Edited by JenTara on 12-21-2004 06:38 AM

Jen'tara Rhee - Force-sensitive Twi'lek - Elder Teras Kasi/ Elder Pikewoman / Jedi / Imperial Pilot (Imperial Inquisition)- Intrepid

Racquel Babylon - Force-sensitive Human - Teras Kasi Elder / Elder Dancer / Master Entertainer / Alliance Pilot (Vortex) - Bria

Teavai Ynai - Force-sensitive Zabrak - Elder Bounty Hunter / Elder Creature Handler / Bounty Hunter / Freelance Pilot (Smuggler's Alliance) - Kettemoor

-

aimee

Tue Dec 21, 2004 11:02 am

#632

I have a master dancer on 2 different servers, you will never find me afk in a public cantina buff-botting. If I'm public buffing I will be live. I personally don't agree with public buff-bots afk & dressed badly (hehe) making cash, it's a lame way to make a buck and ruins alive performer's chance at making money not to mention the very annoying afk spam that comes from most of these. On one of my servers I run my dancer afk buffing free for guildies in a private cantina to help my guild not to make moneyand not taking away from other live entertainers in a busy cantina.Most entertainers that are strictly entertainers have a hard time starting out in the way of cash. I make good tips on my live buffer after reaching master dancer and mastermusician, but I'd NEVERleave her afk buffing taking thataway from others who aremaybe just starting out or who are live. Just my opinion.

Aimee Isakk, TKM | Swordswoman (temp re-instated)
Dark Forces <DF>
Hewisha, Master Tailor | ID | Merchant (cancelled)
Dark Forces <DF>
Tysita, Master Doctor | Master Dancer (cancelled)
Dark Forces <DF>

and yes.. I still <3 Mordrid

rayill

Wed Dec 29, 2004 9:18 am

#633

I think that this thread can still be useful, although it may not be as useful now as it originally was. Obviously, most people are going to be unwilling to read this thread from start to finish, especially now that it is reaching 30 pages. I think that many of the things posted have been insightful from both sides of the fence. Although I am strongly anti-AFK and have gotten into arguments with people over that issue, this post has been useful for some of them to voice their opinions. I am a strong proponent of open debate, even if I am against the issue that they propose is somehow useful. Debate allows for sometimes very strong valid points to be made, and a few important issues have been highlighted in this post.

I would recommend not sololy limiting discussion to this post since most people will not bother to even read it if we were to limit it here, causing a rehash of old issues. People typically feel that they don't have the time, and what they have to say is important enough to ignore the 30 page post, regardless if the issue or topic has been addressed countless times. Just look at how often people ask the same questions that stickied posts reference. People don't bother to look at anything or search for anything. They merely just post what they want to say. Now, yes, I generalize "people" with that statement, but there are a great deal of those who just post.

I think this post is still useful, so it should remain open and unlocked. That's just my opinion since some people may still actually take the time to read it and attempt to post something new to add to this discussion. As long as the issue remains open, I don't think we should do anything to remove this from the boards.

Rayill Yi'tun

Master Dancer

- I support ATK people and playstyles

Isleh

Thu Dec 30, 2004 10:26 am

#634

JenTara wrote:

Isleh wrote:

It comes down to this

SOE changes the Entertainer profession to require in game resources. Entertainer buffbots can stay.

SOE does not change the Entertainer profession and only requires real life time. Entertainer buffbots have to go.

It all depends onwhatSOE decides to alter. The design vision of the profession or the mechanics of the macro system ( or the entertainer buff system ).

One problem. SOE doesn't see buffbots as a problem. Until we can get them to see them as a abuse of the system that harms the profession, they will never do anything. My dancer on Bria owns about 400k in outfits, all of which have been purchased by running missions and fighting in space and selling the loot... I am 100% serious when I say I'd be surprised if I've ever gotten 10k total in tips... I am not a master dancer yet, so I don't really do buffs, but I know being a master dancer isn't gonna make the money start rollin' in cause nobody is gonna be paying me for buffs when they can go to a certain ~~starport~~ cantina and get FREE buffs 24/7 from a certain buffbot that is ALWAYS there (not going to tell anyone who or where... that would be really damn stupid to "support" him/her like that)

Message Edited by JenTara on 12-21-2004 06:38 AM

I have seen the same thing on Gorath, Buffbots shouting out that they are offering Free buffs. The only conclusion I can come to is that the owner of the buffbot wants to destroy the profession. If the entartainer profession is removed from the game, that frees up the account that this power gamer has to use.

I will wait until after the combat revamp... From what I've read, there are plans to change how buffs, spice and food work. The changes may make buffbots obsolete... only SOE knows and they are not talking. How well that works will tell me if SOE is capable of making SWG good.

gera

Thu Dec 30, 2004 5:33 pm

#635

I don't think thread will help any kind as long as dancer community is ready to lynch any one that can tell AFK does not kill proffession...

Armor removed from Jedi so they can be kited 'as designed' - Blixtev

Isleh

Sat Jan 01, 2005 1:04 am

#636

gera wrote:

I don't think thread will help any kind as long as dancer community is ready to lynch any one that can tell AFK does not kill proffession...

Read back some Gera and about the resource issues. How the macro system bypasses player time invested in the game and how only player time is used to govern the entertainer professions.

Regarding the ability to find Entertainers to buff? There are 130+ player cities on Gorath. Other servers are probably close to that number as well. Most, if not all, probably have cantinas ( and med centers ).Throw in the NPC cities and there is the reason.

Even with register location working.Faced with that, what player wouldn't just go to a cantina where they know a buffbot is 23/7? The reasons are very simple to understand why a buffbot is so attractive. All you have to do is look at some of the questions the player maybe asking themselves when looking for a buff.

Sure, there isanother entertainer registered in some city. Is there a Master Dancer AND a Master Muscian there?

Are they both ATK?

Why bother to look for an hour when I only have 2 hours to play?

I'm grinding lairs for credits and I'm short on them. The buffbot I go to offers Free buffs.

SyxxPac20

Mon Jan 03, 2005 3:32 am

#637

First, I apologize in advance if I am restating comments or suggestions posted by others, I only read the first page before I decided to reply. For anyone that says 100% afk entertaining is wrong than argue that round the clock buff bots are necessary are being somewhat hypocritical.

Why?

Because mind buffs are not necessary to play this game. No buffs are necessary to play this game. We all just have this idea that the only way to get xp is to wear 80% composite, buy +2500 doctor buffs and get 100%+ entertainer buffs. And if that weren't enough, we expect to have these when we want them, where we want them. And when those that provide the service say that they have a problem with this, we tell them that the majority rules, if they don't like it then it's too bad for them?

So then an alternate solution is for the devs to develop a way for us to have buffbots, either pc's with a penalty, or npc's. And the entire time we still don't address the issue of the general player base treating our entertainers as if there is an actual human being behind the character. It just totally blows the mind of the average player that there might actually be a player atk of that little dancing twi'lek.

AFK entertaining and buffbots DO hurt the entertainer professions.No matter how you spin it, afk ents and buffbots are the expected norm these days, and as such, any ent that tries to be anything else is treated with scorn and disrespect. And the simple fact is this scorn and disrespect carries over to other professions. I've been a dancer and I quit because I was tired of the expectation that I be on call from the moment I log on to the moment I log off. I was atk while I leveled and it wasn't a fun grind unless there were other atk ents online too. Now I have a master id/master tailor, and I still have people that expect me to drop a tailoring client and rush to the nearest salon to give them a stat migration. No please, no thank you, I'm shocked if there's a tip offered. Then I get angry tells when I tell them no, I'm busy. And that expectation that everything is done NOW that is killing a lot of the crafters I know. Hey all you combat only types out there, I have news for you. You are not the only player in this game, and if that's how youchoose to approach game play, then maybe you would be happier in KOTOR or HALO.

So how do we address the problem of afk entertainers and buffbots? Well, maybe we should approach this problem like we approached the one-hour ID grind and the vendor poaching. The solutions were proposed, and debated, and finally released. There were folks that insisted the majority of players wanted things kept status quo (I mean having your own vendor without investing any skill points was just so convenient) and they insisted there would be a mass exodus of people leaving the game. After the fixes were released, the majority of players simply adapted to the change and continued to play the game. I submit this as proof that while afk entertaining and buffing is convenient to the majority of players, the majority does or will sympathize to the entertainers plight and support any changes that make these professions more enjoyable.

Should the devs install npc entertainers? I don't think so. Let's start by taking recursive macros out of the game and adding a time limit to macros (say 15 minutes, plenty of time to do some laundry, make dinner or gab on the phone). This will be an inconvenience, but an entertainerwill still be able to use macroswhile they do other things like socialize. How about making it impossible to entertain while the afk flag is up, as in the all actions stop as the flag goes up and cannot be resumed til the flag is down. Or maybe giving entertainers some kind of interface (please, not a huge one like the ID's got) that they have to work from in order to flourish and/or buff with NO line commands. And finally, how about SOE starts enforcing that no third party software part of the ToS. While they are at it, maybe they could finish adding more flourishes, I'd love to see more variety in the exotic dances.

Dancer Archive

Thread: Pro/Anti AFK/Bot/Macro All Purpose Sticky