Dancer Archive
Thread: Pro/Anti AFK/Bot/Macro All Purpose Sticky
Xyrdre wrote:
Been watching this thread for a long time now, and I haven't seen any new discussion or debate in a very long time. Nitpicking over the semantics of post after post is not constructive in any way. I continue to debate the usefulness of this thread at this point.
I will listen to the viewpoints of the participants on this question: Is there any reason to continue to have this thread open and active, or is it a horse 50 times beat dead?
I agree, keep this thread up please. I am not one for trolling everythread onthe Dancerboard and raising a flame war with opinions I dont agree with on every thread/post on this subject. This thread keeps all the opinions (mostly the PRO)about this subject fairly contained. I do notice alot of ANTI posts on this board other than this thread, but I dont post there, nor do I want to. This is a good place to argue about the subject without it spilling all over the Dancer boards. I know the devs/mods check this thread, and as long as there are no personal attacks (sexual and racial refrences) and uncontrolable flaming it should stay until something is done about it.
Eaca wrote:
Heh, its funny, we have a phrixus on my server, he's a jerk too
As for the rest of you why do you continue to feed this creep? Obviously he's the type that will do anything for "teh win" regardless of how he hurts others. He doesn't care about us, he doesn't care about this game. Once he "beats" this game (i.e. ruins it), he'll just move on to the next one and try to ruin that one too. Just stop replying to him, you're not going to reason with him, because anything that doesn't make phrixus better is "teh suk"
Heh, its funny, we have ATK Entertainers on my server,they are jerks too
Message Edited by akothas on 12-13-2004 12:48 AM
akothas wrote:
Eaca wrote:
Heh, its funny, we have a phrixus on my server, he's a jerk too
As for the rest of you why do you continue to feed this creep? Obviously he's the type that will do anything for "teh win" regardless of how he hurts others. He doesn't care about us, he doesn't care about this game. Once he "beats" this game (i.e. ruins it), he'll just move on to the next one and try to ruin that one too. Just stop replying to him, you're not going to reason with him, because anything that doesn't make phrixus better is "teh suk"
Heh, its funny, we have ATK Entertainers on my server,they are jerks too
As for the rest of you why do you continue to feed this creeps? Obviouslythey arethe type that will do anything for "teh win" regardless of howthey hurts others.They don't care about us,they don't care about this game. Oncethey get"their way" in this game (i.e. ruins it), they'll just move on to the next one and try to ruin that one too. Just stop replying to them, you're not going to reason with them, because anything that doesn't makeATK Entertainersbetter is "teh suk"
Message Edited by akothas on 12-13-2004 12:48 AM
One word, Troll.
He could have shortened this to "I know you are, but what am I" and said the same thing.
Isleh wrote:
akothas wrote:
Eaca wrote:
Heh, its funny, we have a phrixus on my server, he's a jerk too
As for the rest of you why do you continue to feed this creep? Obviously he's the type that will do anything for "teh win" regardless of how he hurts others. He doesn't care about us, he doesn't care about this game. Once he "beats" this game (i.e. ruins it), he'll just move on to the next one and try to ruin that one too. Just stop replying to him, you're not going to reason with him, because anything that doesn't make phrixus better is "teh suk"
Heh, its funny, we have ATK Entertainers on my server,they are jerks too
As for the rest of you why do you continue to feed this creeps? Obviouslythey arethe type that will do anything for "teh win" regardless of howthey hurts others.They don't care about us,they don't care about this game. Oncethey get"their way" in this game (i.e. ruins it), they'll just move on to the next one and try to ruin that one too. Just stop replying to them, you're not going to reason with them, because anything that doesn't makeATK Entertainersbetter is "teh suk"
Message Edited by akothas on 12-13-2004 12:48 AM
One word, Troll.
He could have shortened this to "I know you are, but what am I" and said the same thing.
Actually I was trying to point out how hollow this point is, and you didnt get that either. Trying to single out a single person in a disscussion that effects us all not only makes you look bad (as far as arguement sake goes), but makes your point moot as well.
All I did was reply to an ignorant not very thought out comment withthe same ignorance.Someone comes here, try to take a cheap shot attack with nothing real to say. I pretty much said the same thing as them, as you can agree. I think I made it clear who the troll is.
Message Edited by akothas on 12-13-2004 09:43 PM
akothas wrote:
Isleh wrote:
akothas wrote:
Eaca wrote:
Heh, its funny, we have a phrixus on my server, he's a jerk too
As for the rest of you why do you continue to feed this creep? Obviously he's the type that will do anything for "teh win" regardless of how he hurts others. He doesn't care about us, he doesn't care about this game. Once he "beats" this game (i.e. ruins it), he'll just move on to the next one and try to ruin that one too. Just stop replying to him, you're not going to reason with him, because anything that doesn't make phrixus better is "teh suk"
Heh, its funny, we have ATK Entertainers on my server,they are jerks too
As for the rest of you why do you continue to feed this creeps? Obviouslythey arethe type that will do anything for "teh win" regardless of howthey hurts others.They don't care about us,they don't care about this game. Oncethey get"their way" in this game (i.e. ruins it), they'll just move on to the next one and try to ruin that one too. Just stop replying to them, you're not going to reason with them, because anything that doesn't makeATK Entertainersbetter is "teh suk"
Message Edited by akothas on 12-13-2004 12:48 AM
One word, Troll.
He could have shortened this to "I know you are, but what am I" and said the same thing.
Actually I was trying to point out how hollow this point is, and you didnt get that either. Trying to single out a single person in a disscussion that effects us all not only makes you look bad (as far as arguement sake goes), but makes your point moot as well.
All I did was reply to an ignorant not very thought out comment withthe same ignorance.Someone comes here, try to take a cheap shot attack with nothing real to say. I pretty much said the same thing as them, as you can agree. I think I made it clear who the troll is.
Message Edited by akothas on 12-13-2004 09:43 PM
I did get it. Going back, I thought I made some good points in my other posts about buffbots being the equivalent of unlimited production of a product/service at no cost and destroys the economics of the profession. I kept it level and the tone neutral. No reply from you ( I brought it up again just before my Troll post as a reminder ). My post that fuels the flame war? You were on it like a rabid wolf.
Your reply is a very poor way of making a point and explaining your views. You said it yourself, to your point of view, you replied to ignorance with more ignorance. They may see it as you twisting as distorting their point of view on the other hand. At best, the point is made but it leaves the person you're replying to guessing as to your motive of the post (as it did for me). More often than not, it just fuels the flame war.
But regardless of how valid the point, if the tone of the post is such that it fuels the flame war and done intentionally...
Take a step back and look at the tone and wording of your posts.
How do you expect Eaca to react?
About the post I replied to, the person had what I consider made an attack aganist me. Their comment had no value in the arguement, it was simply "how bad I am"
Eaca wrote:
"Heh, its funny, we have a phrixus on my server, he's a jerk too"
"He doesn't care about us, he doesn't care about this game.
Who is this person to say I am something that I really am not just because we have a difference of opinion. If I didnt care about the game, I wouldnt care to stress my opinion in the first place. I am not going to say I am innocent of poking a stick at this person and their comments, I just replied to their comments with pretty much the same exact words as they had posted to me. If this person had never posted such a statement, I wouldnt have replied andnone of this would have happened. Do you see that? I am not going to come here and make some wild statement like this without making a logical point. (unless its done to me
)
To the other subject about crafters/dancers.
A person can start out as a novice entertainer. Lets say that entertainer decides to master the dancer profession. First thing they do is get some decent clothing, BE clothing for that matter. Lets say it cost them 30K for the clothing they need. From there that person hits the cantina. No other in game resource is needed to aquire the "Master Dancer" title (except money for training.) So the total cost of mastering the dancer profession is +/- 100k credits. Once master, there is truely nothing else needed, and to make credits all you must to is /setp or /join.
Now lets say the next person starts out as novice Artisan. They decide to master Architect Profession. First thing they do is hit the market, buy a tool, and the approx 400k in resources to get novice Architect. From this point on they have already spentmore thanwhole dancer profession, and they are only novice. It is going to take approx 600k ore and 300k steel to get their master tag, with already equals millions of credits at 3-6 CPU for grinding material. Once master, if you want to compete, you really have to search or buy the best of the best materials just to make a profit.
The point is, mastering dancer and musician is basically free, except to the cash needed to train. For most entertainers its even easier to find someone else to train you, so most of that cost is negated. You are able to give away stuff for free (like dancer and musician buffs) if it takes noting to aquire it. Crafting professions cannot aquire stuff for free, it is always going to cost them something weather its harvys, power, straight out purchase, trade, etc. I can garentee if it costed me5 million+ (because its 2 professions ) to get my dancer/musician buffbot to master, buffs wouldnt be free, and noone would "give" them away.
This is pretty much how the entertainment and artisan professions dont compare.
akothas wrote:*double postMessage Edited by akothas on 12-14-2004 08:36 AM
It's so typical of a buffbot to double post! You're such scum with your double posting, don't you care how us forum readers feel? Besides, your double post isn't worth crap compared to a real post, but still the forum software allows it, it's just crap and I'm sick of it.
Yes, I'm being silly
.
Aleyo wrote:
akothas wrote:
*double post
Message Edited by akothas on 12-14-2004 08:36 AM
It's so typical of a buffbot to double post! You're such scum with your double posting, don't you care how us forum readers feel? Besides, your double post isn't worth crap compared to a real post, but still the forum software allows it, it's just crap and I'm sick of it.
Yes, I'm being silly
LOL!
About your artisan comparison; To get artisan the cost is low, unless you choose to purchase your "grind" materials and bypass the collection of your own resources to speed up the process. It is in fact completely possible to do this without spending a single credit. By doing your artisan profession in steps and selling extra resources and crafted items it is more than possible to not only make a profit while training up your skill but become quite wealthy by entertainer standards.
One other point, dance and music enhancement skill items are just about the most expensive items on any server. In fact the only things that seem to sell for more are the night sister biceps.
Reachwind wrote:
akothas: to become a master dancer or musician the cost isn't very high. However to become a master with added bonuses the costs are well and above what is possible for an entertainer to make through entertaining.
About your artisan comparison; To get artisan the cost is low, unless you choose to purchase your "grind" materials and bypass the collection of your own resources to speed up the process. It is in fact completely possible to do this without spending a single credit. By doing your artisan profession in steps and selling extra resources and crafted items it is more than possible to not only make a profit while training up your skill but become quite wealthy by entertainer standards.
One other point, dance and music enhancement skill items are just about the most expensive items on any server. In fact the only things that seem to sell for more are the night sister biceps.
akothas wrote:
About the post I replied to, the person had what I consider made an attack aganist me. Their comment had no value in the arguement, it was simply "how bad I am"
Eaca wrote:
"Heh, its funny, we have a phrixus on my server, he's a jerk too"
"He doesn't care about us, he doesn't care about this game.
Who is this person to say I am something that I really am not just because we have a difference of opinion. If I didnt care about the game, I wouldnt care to stress my opinion in the first place. I am not going to say I am innocent of poking a stick at this person and their comments, I just replied to their comments with pretty much the same exact words as they had posted to me. If this person had never posted such a statement, I wouldnt have replied andnone of this would have happened. Do you see that? I am not going to come here and make some wild statement like this without making a logical point. (unless its done to me
To the other subject about crafters/dancers.
A person can start out as a novice entertainer. Lets say that entertainer decides to master the dancer profession. First thing they do is get some decent clothing, BE clothing for that matter. Lets say it cost them 30K for the clothing they need. From there that person hits the cantina. No other in game resource is needed to aquire the "Master Dancer" title (except money for training.) So the total cost of mastering the dancer profession is +/- 100k credits. Once master, there is truely nothing else needed, and to make credits all you must to is /setp or /join.
Now lets say the next person starts out as novice Artisan. They decide to master Architect Profession. First thing they do is hit the market, buy a tool, and the approx 400k in resources to get novice Architect. From this point on they have already spentmore thanwhole dancer profession, and they are only novice. It is going to take approx 600k ore and 300k steel to get their master tag, with already equals millions of credits at 3-6 CPU for grinding material. Once master, if you want to compete, you really have to search or buy the best of the best materials just to make a profit.
The point is, mastering dancer and musician is basically free, except to the cash needed to train. For most entertainers its even easier to find someone else to train you, so most of that cost is negated. You are able to give away stuff for free (like dancer and musician buffs) if it takes noting to aquire it. Crafting professions cannot aquire stuff for free, it is always going to cost them something weather its harvys, power, straight out purchase, trade, etc. I can garentee if it costed me5 million+ (because its 2 professions ) to get my dancer/musician buffbot to master, buffs wouldnt be free, and noone would "give" them away.
This is pretty much how the entertainment and artisan professions dont compare.
Regarding Resources:
But as you pointed out, and I agree with, is that the ultimate resource is real life time. All the materials and steps you mentioned to get from novice Artisan to master Architect are to make the artisan invest real life time.
Mastering dancer and musician is basically free, in game. But look how long SOE tries to make it take to do. SOE wanted to enforce the investment of real life time. SOE tried to do so without requiring in game resources.
After all, whatever profession, they should all take about the same amount of time to master. Someone willing to play a 46hr marathon over the weekend should progress just as far as someone wanting to play only 2hrs a night for 23 days.
That brings me to the Macro system:
It's a necessary evil because for the most part, it's master of nothing for the crafting professions and grinding out a profession is boring. Macros do help. I mastered Droid Eng. with them. But even with macros, I had to do it ATK (it was actually faster trimming out some of the macros after a while). The macro system reduces the investment of real life time.
This is where the breakdown begins. SOE wants people to invest real life ATK time into building our characters. It makes the player feel like we've accomplished something worthwhile and the game worth playing. If that wasn't the case, we would have all started out as masters in our chosen profession. The macro system bypasses the real life ATK time for dancers and musicians.
Back to the Ultimate Resource, Real life time:
Crafting professions, despite the macro system, still have to invest real ATK life time. Resources shift, taking up harvesters, finding a good resource spots by surveying, placing harvesters, Maintaining harvesters, Creating schematics to run in a factory, loading materials into factories, etc. all take up real ATK life time. In the end, it is the real life ATK time that the good Crafter invests in finding and collecting good resources that beats out the crafter who just grabs the finds whatever resources are available with minimal effort. The macro system has no effect on them and actually helps them. It is how it should be. the amount of effort a player puts in ATK will give them a reward proportional to their effort.
Dancer/Musician professions, because of the macro system, do not have to invest real ATK life time. The macro system has actually helps them (I've seen 2 entertainers cerograph a duet using macros). But the amount of effort a player puts in ATK has little or no reward proportional to their effort. In fact, buffbots reap most of the benefits because they simply build up a bigger client base just by being 23/7 and people are creatures of habit. The term 'Bass ackwards' comes to my mind when it comes to reward proportional to the effort.
Now we get to play style and the reason why I made the artisan comparison:
What if Artisans who prefer to play on Naboo get to bypass all the hassle of gathering resources. While Artisans who prefer to play on Corellia and other planets do not?
From what I gather, your answer would be to simply move to Naboo. It is just a matter of play style after all. Am I correct?
My answer on the other hand is that there is a fundamental flaw in the system that contradicts the design and it needs to be addressed.