Dancer Archive
Thread: Pro/Anti AFK/Bot/Macro All Purpose Sticky
Isleh wrote: On a fundamental level, it destroys the economics of the profession. The value of the service is determined by how much resources go into that service as well as the demand. The limiting resource for entertainer buffs is player time. Buffbots remove that limiting resource since the player is no longer involved. Instead, limiting resource has moved outside the game to a computer capable of running a dedicated buffbot. This is unfair since MANY players do not have the means to dedicate an entire computer to play a single game 23/7.
akothas wrote: Just as a weaponsmith with good resources has a negative effect on a weaponsmith with bad resources, because the weaponsmith with bad resources cannot sell his goods because the market is flooded with good weapons. Its intentional because its called competition.
The limiting resources for any class is real life time and resources. I am sure there are people out there that have the ability to run 10 accounts at once, but I am not whining about them. If you can get a better real life job, and buy another computer to dedicate to SWG, get a broadband connection, and pay another $15 a month, then you can do what anyone else does. Oops, did I say the word whine?
Edited because I had to write this up twice. First time I submitted, I was told there was a HTML error and it was completely deleted. The line with the strike through is cut-and-paste garbage that I missed.
Message Edited by Isleh on 12-12-2004 10:48 AM
Maisland wrote:
akothas wrote:
Buffbots dont "teach" other people to disrespect other people. That like blaming the gun manufacturer for teaching people to be hate filled andkill other people. Most police and gun owners I know are not like this, and most criminals I know are.People who are rude to you are just that: rude. No matter what class you play you are going to associate with people like this simply because its their nature, and not a result of a specific in game mechanic.
You can place blame wherever you feel like it, but know by pointing your finger at buffbots is not going to solve your social problems in game. There are simply rude hate filled people out there, and as long as they pay their $15 a month and keep within the "community standatds" (which dosent you require you to be nice) you are just going to have to deal with people like this.
When someone "asks" for a buff by using /invite without saying a word to you, it is because they learned to do that by using buff-bots.
And when I log on I get tells "rebels in coro" and "rebels in theed". When other groups of imperials see me ungrouped, the invite me automatically assuming I am ready for PVP. I am sorry, but it really dosent upset me, even though I know they want my help. You do know if you dont want to join their group you dont have to.. right?
When someone becomes accustomed to /slapping, /spitting etc their local buff-bot and then does the same to a live entertainer, it is because buff-bots allow it (and they have no choice but to allow it because they aren't actually there to complain).
I am sure I have people slapping and spitting on me all day long, but I wouldnt know. I put rude people like that on /addignore, and I never hear from them again.
When someone tells an entertainer that their playstyle is invalid and that they should get a "real proffession" if they want to make any money, it is the fault of the buff-bot.
No, it is not the fault of the buffbot, it is the fault of SOE and the person telling you your profession is invalid. I have people tell me my profession (jedi) is invalid because "its not in the timeline ...etc". The entertainer profession has shallow mechanics at best. It was their (SOE) idea to have a "social" class. Buffbots use the mechanics of the profession, and that is all. There are still many things you can do to make money while still being a master dancer/musician/entertainer.
When someone says that all entertainers should just run buff-bots themselves, it is the fault of those already running buff-bots. (I have read your posts here. You are guilty of this yourself.)
I dont know why someone would say ALL entertainers should run bots. There is a social aspect to the profession, but I dont want much to do with it. If you are in the profession for credits by buffing, making standard in game macro is the way to go. If not, chat with who you want to, when you want to, how you want to. Noone is stopping you.
When people talk about you as if you are not present, it is because they are accustomed to the fact that with buff-bots, there IS no one present.
Is that really hard to correct? all you have to do is say "im here". If you take that as "something rude" then I dont know how you get by in life without being offended everyday.
When people don't know that they can be buffed without being grouped, it is because they learned how to get buffed by using buff-bots.
Here is you chance! be social! teach a noob!Truth is, I didnt know you could /setp UNTIL I made a buffbot
Yes, there are rude, hate-filled people out there, but having buff-bots available encourages this kind of behavior. As for your gun comparison, I would say that the macros themselves, and not the buff-bots, are what hold the greatest similarity to guns. I do not blame the macros for the buff-bots anymore than I blame the gun manufacturers for criminals who use guns.
Macros and buffbots are all in the same. You cannot have one without the other. People treating you bad has nothing to do with either.We all have the ability to do it, and the only reason you do not macro/buffbot is because of choice alone, not because you are force notto and not because I have an advantage. Bots do nothing "game breaking" in a sence if forcing people to treat you rude. If you nikpick everything thing in life you can find a bad aspect about anything. Its seening the cup half empty. Think of it in a way that the rude people you dont want to talk to get buffs over there at the bot... or ... you would just rather they didnt get them at all? Because you dont like them?
P.S. I know people who are NOT NORMALLY RUDE, that treat entertainers like dirt because they learned to do so by using buff-bots... and yes, I CAN blame buff-bots for the increased disrespect that entertainers get. All I have to do is to compare my own instructions on how to treat entertainers with the experience that Lilo had recently.
Buffbots dont teach anyone anything. They buff, and nothing more. They dont tell people to be rude to entertainers. Its the player'schoice alone. Perhaps they dont want anything to do with you whatsoever, and they dont want to have to talk to you to get what they want. They like their playstyle and not yours. Is that really bad, or just something you personally dont like? If youconsider buffbotsNPC's, then I BLAME THE TICKET COLLECTOR FOR ALL THE DISRESPECT I GET!!!.
My introduction to entertainers was provided by a RL friend (who talked me into playing SWG in the first place). My first character was a combat type. I was complertely unfamiliar with the entertainer professions. My friend took me to a cantina, showed me an entertainer who was performing and told me how to use them to get rid of my mind wounds and battle fatigue. My friend then told me how much I should tip the entertainer for this service and told me that entertainers damaged themselves in order to heal me.
My first introduction to entertainer was "wow, why am I not healing" .. after searching a boards for a while, I learned entertainers heal BF. I went and picked up novice entertainer, went to the cantina (there were already people there) and starting tooting my horn. Having the ability to completely heal myself was my first step to success.
As a contrast, take a look at Lilo's post on the Musician forum. This is REALLY a sad state of affairs!
Message Edited by Maisland on 12-11-2004 10:53 AM
Maisland wrote:
As a contrast, take a look at Lilo's post on the Musician forum. This is REALLY a sad state of affairs!
Message Edited by Maisland on 12-11-2004 10:53 AM
akothas wrote:
Buffbots dont send hate tells, they dont ask you to join their group, they dont get in your way whatsoever with an /addignore command. If everyentertainer was ATK buffing, then you would complain because other people would be taking "your" money, customers, enjoyment, whatever and in turn there would be alot more hate tells between players. Grief is going to be generated no matter what, there are just those kind of players out there. Someone that does not interact with you whatsoever (including a bot) IS NOT causing you grief, no matter how you want to look at it.
If you think bots "hurt the community" you couldnt be more wrong. Most of the community use them and accept them! I believe alot of entertainers are hyper sensative to the subject simply because they dont have the means to compete (an extra computer, account, whatever). A buffbot (or macros for any class)can use the game mechanics far better than any human.Any human can use the in game macro system. You get what I am saying? YOU DO NOT DO IT BECAUSE YOU DONT LIKE IT. Simple as that. Macro's do NOT provide any social aspect to the game whatsoever. Your arguement has the same relevance as "destroy the assembly like because it takes my job".I am here forprogression and competition. Make your own bot if you want to compete on the mechanic aspect. I dont hear any other profession that cries about bots as much as entertainers, yet every dayIsee some combat AFKer macro killingspawns. Neither bother me at all.
You can be whatever you want in the community. Bots dont think, and they dont force people to think any way. Its allon the head ofthe player you are talking to. If you blame the bot then you just arent facting the facts that people in general dont want to have to associate with an ATK player. Forcing them to do so really isnt going to make it better, probably worse. Being a known menber of the community means you have to make a name for yourself. Just because a combatant picks up a rifle and shoots stuff they arent going to make a name for themselves.Making a name in your "community" requires person to people communication. A buffbot does not do this.A buffbot is not going to break your name or make your name or make you more or less popular or make people want to talk to you more/less.
Also, just so you know, not everyone here wants to "stop to smell the roses". It should be possable but not a requirementjust because some people want it that way. Some (alot) of people are here purely to compete weather its crafting, pvping, looting or entertaining.Most games are about player vs whatever ... competition. Not every class is going to be as good as another when it comes to making credits either ... Its called balance. Simply put, a commandoneeds alot more than just XP to truely master his profession. They need armor, weapons, buffs, etc to be able to play an equal amount of time in game as effective in their profession as an entertainer is in theirs. An entertainer needs almost nothing to get to master, and once there needs nothing more.
I find it entertaining I can log in with my jedi, walk into our cantina, and see 4 of my guildies getting a mind buff from my bot. Its more entertaining when I get my buff easily as well, so I can jump right on to do what I want to do. To me that is entertaining. I know what I am doing (as a person, not a buffbot) is having a positive effect on my guild and community, simply because they tell me so. Every entertainer has the same ability todo the same things for their guild and community.I dont want to sit here and try to tell you what is entertaining or not, because I can see its quite different.
/sigh
There atre none so blind as those who WILL NOT see.
I saw another MMOG that I loved (Asheron's Call) destroyed by unattended macroing. When it started, I thought that the macroers were lame (I was proud of the fact that all of my characters earned all of their xp with me ATK), but I didn't think that they could possibly do me any harm because I NEVER INTERACTED with them. I was wrong.
Eventually, the problems caused by unattended macroingbecame so bad that the devs made it a bannable offense. It was too late by then to eliminate all of the damage. I see the same thing happening here in SWG.
As one who runs a buff-bot, you are part of the problem. The devs here at SWG have stated that looping macros (and thus unattended macroing) WILL be eliminated. If they can see that this is a problem, why can't you?
My guess is that you plan on "winning" the game and will then move on to the next big shiny new game... leaving the damage you caused behind when you go.
Well, I'm out of this thread. I'm tired of people who refuse to see.
Justify it all you want. The fact is you are just selfish.
Reachwind wrote:
akothas; if you and your guild truly were using a buff bot to fill the gaps when live entertainers were not available this wouldn't even be an issue. The fact is you use a bot in place of and in the face of those who willing choose and in fact get enjoyment from that particular facet of the game.
Justify it all you want. The fact is you are just selfish.
Actually, I use my bot in the city of my own cantina now, and people come there to get buffs. If macros were never in place, and they actually banned people for 3rd party programs and such, then it wouldnt even be an issue.Howeverthis isnotthat game, and just because people dont want to play the game you want to play dosent make them bad. I am sorry you did not get the game you want, but most of us have.
Message Edited by akothas on 12-12-2004 05:25 PM
akothas wrote:
Reachwind wrote: akothas; if you and your guild truly were using a buff bot to fill the gaps when live entertainers were not available this wouldn't even be an issue. The fact is you use a bot in place of and in the face of those who willing choose and in fact get enjoyment from that particular facet of the game. Justify it all you want. The fact is you are just selfish.
Actually, I use my bot in the city of my own cantina now, and people come there to get buffs. If macros were never in place, and they actually banned people for 3rd party programs and such, then it wouldnt even be an issue.Howeverthis isnotthat game, and just because people dont want to play the game you want to play dosent make them bad. I am sorry you did not get the game you want, but most of us have.
Message Edited by akothas on 12-12-2004 05:25 PM
Translation:
"Yes, I realize that bots hurt you - and - No, I don't care."
I think you are the one playing the wrong game. Maybe you should try this one.
Oh, and we mustn't forget, "If the rules were enforced, this wouldn't be an issue."
Message Edited by Tiphaine on 12-12-2004 09:12 PM
Tiphaine wrote:
Translation:
"Yes, I realize that bots hurt you - and - No, I don't care."
You dont realize most people likebuffbots - and you dont care.
I think you are the one playing the wrong game. Maybe you should try this one.
You dont want to play the game the way it was made -with macros -I feel I am in a good game, how about you?
Oh, and we mustn't forget, "If the rules were enforced, this wouldn't be an issue."
Dont forget, the rules most of us like are in place now, and we arent complaining.
Message Edited by Tiphaine on 12-12-2004 09:12 PM
Shaizann wrote:
akothas wrote:
I still crack a smile when I walk into a cantina and see a group of entertainers doing /bandflourish. Its nothing special to me personally, but seeing people having fun makes me happy.
Why, then, if you like to see folks happy do you continue to run your bot? After all the stuff we've talked about over nearly thirty pages worth of thread? I know you think this is some sort of debate alone for debates sake as you've stated as such. However, this is our entire playstyle you're going out of your way to threaten. This is the part that I don't understand (well one of a few parts) even after you've seen how much grief we get from bots and the generation of players raised by bots you still tell us we're the folks that are wrong. Would it kill you to try to look at it from our perspective for a moment? Would it kill you to accept the fact that there are militant organized bots that have actively griefed live entertainers?
No matter how benevolent you think you are by running your bot it will hurt the game in the long run. I belive bots hurt the sense of community since they're NPCs that train combat types that the entertainer professions are marginalized vending machines by the example they set. We are part of the community of SWG no matter what you think of us. I do not appreciate being thought of as an NPC much less told I'm "useless" by the GCW correspondant.
Yes, the system SOE set up for our profession is not well thought out. It works in an environment where people are willing to stop and smell the roses for a bit, but that type of environment does not last long in MMOs in my expereince. Folks loose any care for a sense of immersion in search of the perfectly optimized 'uber' character with an "I Win" buttton on their weapons. Thats the sort of pervasive attitude that makes bots attractive for some combat folk I think. It's easy and convienent and they don't have to think about someone else's feelings or care. It's the sort of attitude that hurts communities in the long run, I think.
Bottome line is I want to be able to play in a cantina where everyone present is playing/dancing and enjoying it. The combat folk are ok with a few minutes rest to get healed wihtout the concern that they might not be acitng 'leet' for a few moments. The bots (and afk in general) detract from that atmosphere though they do not prevent it. I want to be able to put on shows (well I already do this) on as big a scale as possible to be entertaining. I want to be able to make a decent living for my character as an Entertainer. Just as combat types do when they run missions.
At the end of the day as I mentioned a couple posts ago, I'm just plain tired of all this crap. I never understood why people put together elaborate scripts to automate their characters in MUDs or this latter day form of it in MMOs. The game is meant to be played and enjoyed actively. If you find part of it is tedious and boring to the point that you would write a program to afk it, then that part of the game should be revamped in a manner that makes it fun. After all that is the point of entertainment. ( as in entertainment from SWG...not the entertainer professions)
Message Edited by Shaizann on 12-11-2004 07:33 PM
Message Edited by Shaizann on 12-11-2004 07:34 PM
Buffbots dont send hate tells, they dont ask you to join their group, they dont get in your way whatsoever with an /addignore command. If everyentertainer was ATK buffing, then you would complain because other people would be taking "your" money, customers, enjoyment, whatever and in turn there would be alot more hate tells between players. Grief is going to be generated no matter what, there are just those kind of players out there. Someone that does not interact with you whatsoever (including a bot) IS NOT causing you grief, no matter how you want to look at it.
If you think bots "hurt the community" you couldnt be more wrong. Most of the community use them and accept them! I believe alot of entertainers are hyper sensative to the subject simply because they dont have the means to compete (an extra computer, account, whatever). A buffbot (or macros for any class)can use the game mechanics far better than any human.Any human can use the in game macro system. You get what I am saying? YOU DO NOT DO IT BECAUSE YOU DONT LIKE IT. Simple as that. Macro's do NOT provide any social aspect to the game whatsoever. Your arguement has the same relevance as "destroy the assembly like because it takes my job".I am here forprogression and competition. Make your own bot if you want to compete on the mechanic aspect. I dont hear any other profession that cries about bots as much as entertainers, yet every dayIsee some combat AFKer macro killingspawns. Neither bother me at all.
You can be whatever you want in the community. Bots dont think, and they dont force people to think any way. Its allon the head ofthe player you are talking to. If you blame the bot then you just arent facting the facts that people in general dont want to have to associate with an ATK player. Forcing them to do so really isnt going to make it better, probably worse. Being a known menber of the community means you have to make a name for yourself. Just because a combatant picks up a rifle and shoots stuff they arent going to make a name for themselves.Making a name in your "community" requires person to people communication. A buffbot does not do this.A buffbot is not going to break your name or make your name or make you more or less popular or make people want to talk to you more/less.
Also, just so you know, not everyone here wants to "stop to smell the roses". It should be possable but not a requirementjust because some people want it that way. Some (alot) of people are here purely to compete weather its crafting, pvping, looting or entertaining.Most games are about player vs whatever ... competition. Not every class is going to be as good as another when it comes to making credits either ... Its called balance. Simply put, a commandoneeds alot more than just XP to truely master his profession. They need armor, weapons, buffs, etc to be able to play an equal amount of time in game as effective in their profession as an entertainer is in theirs. An entertainer needs almost nothing to get to master, and once there needs nothing more.
I find it entertaining I can log in with my jedi, walk into our cantina, and see 4 of my guildies getting a mind buff from my bot. Its more entertaining when I get my buff easily as well, so I can jump right on to do what I want to do. To me that is entertaining. I know what I am doing (as a person, not a buffbot) is having a positive effect on my guild and community, simply because they tell me so. Every entertainer has the same ability todo the same things for their guild and community.I dont want to sit here and try to tell you what is entertaining or not, because I can see its quite different.
Xyrdre wrote:
Been watching this thread for a long time now, and I haven't seen any new discussion or debate in a very long time. Nitpicking over the semantics of post after post is not constructive in any way. I continue to debate the usefulness of this thread at this point.
I will listen to the viewpoints of the participants on this question: Is there any reason to continue to have this thread open and active, or is it a horse 50 times beat dead?
If we get rid of this thread, this topic will come up over and over in multiple threads. Personally, I don't have a problem with that. I'm pretty much against censorship or "hiding" topics in posts and forcing people to only post in one particular thread.
But, my point is that it's a topic of discussion that will continue to surface over and over until either it's fixed or the game goes out of business. I don't want to see a point where those of us who want to discuss this topic are being locked and shut down because multiple threads keep popping up. With this thread, it appears to be contained. And, while I would personally rather a free for all with minimal moderation, having this thread seems to be a happy medium for those who want to continue discussing it and those who wish it would just go away.