Dancer Archive
Thread: Pro/Anti AFK/Bot/Macro All Purpose Sticky
Malinko_Oknilam
Thu Dec 09, 2004 5:40 pm
#573
I am against AFK dancers, but Im for BuffBots. I am used to be a hardcore PvPer and when I'm on the go and need quick acessible service I turn to a buffbot. .. but of course thats not to say I dont ask some ATK dancers first =)
akothas
Thu Dec 09, 2004 6:13 pm
#574
Shi'ann,I want to start by complementingyou on how you are one of the most level headed ATK supporters on this board. I have read several of your posts, and if I had the slightest feeling I was doing something wrong, well you would easily convert me.
DanceRulez wrote:
Isleh, as much as I wish it were not so, I would have to point out that in fact AFK macroing using the in-game macro system is currently very much not against SOE policy right now. In fact, those that represent SOE, namely the CSRs, actively protect those using AFK macros (and those using players using AFK macros), and can actually punish you for "griefing" a bot should you try to interact with it in a way that was not "intended" (which reminds me, I need to set up my character to AFK camp stormies for loot and FP in Mos Espa, and if any Imperial player comes along and tries to attack me while I'm TEF'ed it's clearly griefing since I didn't intend to PvP - err - Pv Macro). Apparently babysitting bots is a more worthwhile policy, than, say, one where you can use AFK macros, but you can't complain about what happens to your character unless you are there to control it. However some other companies have a very different policy toward this issue, and I would refer you to the Gypsy website (main page) to see something Javier posted. As far as those correspondents, they have nothing to fear from SOE as to whether they use bots or not. The only good news in this is that SOE's policy will change, though it will be a while, and they seem to mean for us to either put up with it or take a break in the meantime.
To Akothas, I would agree with Isleh wholeheartedly that just because you can do something, that doesn't mean you should. We're not at all trying to argue that we couldn't if we really wanted to. Sure, I could leave my computer on all the time and set my character up as another entertainer bot, but I would never do that because I know that doing so damages the profession, and it negatively affects those people who actually want to play that profession and detracts from their play experience. I respect my character, my profession and the others trying to play it, and I don't care how many credits I could earn being AFK, or how many combat players I could buff. I guess that's just the difference between us. While offering some of your buffbot gains to others may be a generous gesture, if you really wanted to help out live entertainers, you would cease running your bot, try to talk others into stopping theirs, encourage your customers to use live entertainers rather than other bots, and not help others to set up their own bots. However the more of your posts I read, the more I realize that you are perfectly happy to continue what you're doing for as long as you can, unwilling or unable to see the problems that it causes, and willing and eager to help others in doing the same thing that you are. Therefore I don't really expect that anything I might say here would make any difference to you, or I might refer you to Javier's website as well to see what another company thinks of AFK "play", remind you that SOE is heading in this direction as well, and hope that it might make you think twice on how you view the AFK "play style" and your bot. But don't worry. I know better.
To my point, you are correct. We simply have a different view on the subject. I dont feel AFK buffbots hurt the community, I feel they help them. Not only that, I think they help SOE with a higher subscription rate. If somehow SOE could set up players to sell transport tickets to get more subscription rates, they would.
The reason you see so many buffbots is simple - the professon is not fun for most people. It is nothing but /flourish. Most of the combat people (like myself) enjoy the mechanics (buffs) the profession has but think the profession in itself is boring. Most of usthat use a buffbot log in every day to focus on PVP or crafting dont even like the social concept of the entertainment profession. Why sit there and talk to an ATK entertainer about mindless rabble (as an example) when you can get a buff and at the same time talking to your PVP friends and be planningyour nextattack?
If ATK entertainers cannot make a living, well all I can say is I am sorry to hear it. Squad leader alone isnt going to make you very many credits either, unless you are doing something outstanding. To me it falls under the same catigory that not everyone that PVP's can PVP good with a jedi. Not every weaponsmith has access to the resources to make uber weapons. Entertainer in my view is more of a social class, because the class itself as far as"things to do" is completely hollow. If you are an ATK entertainer, and you log in every day and are able to chat with people, well then you are doing your job.
JenTara
Thu Dec 09, 2004 8:37 pm
#575
I can, yes. I don't want to? No, because I am not doing something I feel is abusive. My first character in SWG was a dancer, so I've always sided with the dancers, sure. Currently, my most powerful character is a Master Teras Kasi / and somewhat low in the Novice Dancer tree... So, as a Teras Kasi Master, I can see somewhat the benefits of buff bots, but as much as I might NEED a buff, I will not join a "buff bot" group... if the person doing the buffing is not ATK, I can do without a buff. I WILL do without a buff. As for the three correspondents, that's great... but does the Dancer Correspondent? Don't mean to be rude to the hard working players that are our correspondents, but they are, in the end, just players elevated to a voluntary position to help better facilitate relations with developers, not people we should assume are always right in all things... The fact that three of the correspondents use buff bots doesn't make it right... In the end, this whole thread is a matter of opinion, some of us hate buff bots... some are buff bots... We all need to work with our Correspondent and the developers to come to some sort of a compromise, or this issue will always be here, never ending the argument.
akothas wrote:
You act like you cannot do the same thing. Just because you dont want to dosent mean you cannot. I am not doing anything special, as you probably already know how easy it is to write a macro.
And like I said, most of the people do not hate it. I play several characters, and have randomly asked players what they think, and they dont mind at all. As a matter of fact, there are three (yes, three) correspondentsthat use him on a regular basis, as well as a vast majority that enter the cantina.
I am not saying your opinion dosent count, but it dosent matter in my world whatsoever.
LyteFoot
Thu Dec 09, 2004 9:05 pm
#576
akothas wrote:No, as a matter of fact I do not see a pattern.
Its called a sense of ethics and fair play. Doing anything to gain an advantage just because you can is a completely self centered point of view. Justifying that view by convincing yourself no one is getting hurt when the evidence clearly shows that people who want to actually play this "boring" playstyle are hurt is hiding your head in the sand. Thinking that your PvP style of play is more important and justifies you using these loopholes even when it damages another persons selected playstyle is not only self centered but unethical. You have clearly decided that your chosen playstyle is the most important. You have also decided that you must win at all costs from clone camping (a really cheap tactic in any game and generally prevented through some game mechanic in other games) to buff bots. This attitude is definitely one where fair play is of less importance than winning. Not stellar attributes but you have certainly justified it to yourself, I hope you carry these attitudes into real life where you get to live with the consequences.Message Edited by LyteFoot on 12-09-2004 10:06 PM
kirah_ashlin
Thu Dec 09, 2004 9:34 pm
#577
Okay, obviously I missed something - WHO is claiming that the 3 entertainer corrs use buffbots? And what is their proof?
akothas
Thu Dec 09, 2004 9:35 pm
#578
LyteFoot wrote:
akothas wrote:
No, as a matter of fact I do not see a pattern.
Its called a sense of ethics and fair play. Its a game, its called competition. I dont know how many times it has to be explained, but macros are fair game for all of us. The developers endorse it. Doing anything to gain an advantage just because you can is a completely self centered point of view. I dont to it to to just gain an advantage. He is there for all to buff, imperial, rebel, neutral. He dosent even need payment for the mechanics. He is considered a public service, and all profits are from donations. Justifying that view by convincing yourself no one is getting hurt when the evidence clearly shows that people who want to actually play this "boring" playstyle are hurt is hiding your head in the sand.The mechanics are boring. /flourish. You make your own playstyle and content as an entertainer by being social. Thinking that your PvP style of play is more important and justifies you using these loopholes even when it damages another persons selected playstyle is not only self centered but unethical. My playstyle is as important to me as what yours is to you. I personally dont care who you socialize with. Go be social, ATK entertainer. Its really that simple. You have clearly decided that your chosen playstyle is the most important. As, you have yours. You have also decided that you must win at all costs from clone camping (a really cheap tactic in any game and generally prevented through some game mechanic in other games) to buff bots. Clone camping? Sorry, I do have more class than this. If you dont believe me, go to Tempest boards and see how people feel about me. This attitude is definitely one where fair play is of less importance than winning. Ibelieve in fair play. If this is regarding the macro issue, and I assume it is, you have the exact same ability as I do to make a macro. Completely fair, its just a matter of how you use it.Not stellar attributes but you have certainly justified it to yourself, I hope you carry these attitudes into real life where you get to live with the consequences. As I have. I amgetting older, and doing quite well thank you.
Message Edited by LyteFoot on 12-09-2004 10:06 PM
And your "sound bit" was proving a different point as to how buffbots are not compared to exploits and griefing.
You are an ATKentertainer. How I see it,your primary job is being social. If you dont like someone (a buffbot) just /addignore them (yet another game feature) and you never have to worry about them again. The people that want to socialize with you will, and the people that dont, well you probably dont want to socialize with them anyway.
Message Edited by akothas on 12-09-2004 08:37 PM
Aleyo
Thu Dec 09, 2004 11:24 pm
#579
kirah_ashlin wrote:Okay, obviously I missed something - WHO is claiming that the 3 entertainer corrs use buffbots? And what is their proof?
Not 3 entertainer corrs, 3 corrs, including the infamous one who's in Phrixus' guild. And not buffbots, but Phrixus' buffbot, meaning the corrs from Tempest (at least 3 of which are new corrs - not sure if I know of a 4th from Tempest).
kirah_ashlin
Fri Dec 10, 2004 4:57 am
#580
Ah, well we can't exactly expect every corr out there to care about our concerns with buffbots. As far as I'm concerned the only corrs who matter are ours. What other corrs do have no bearing on our game play, style or abilities.
Aleyo wrote:
Not 3 entertainer corrs, 3 corrs, including the infamous one who's in Phrixus' guild. And not buffbots, but Phrixus' buffbot, meaning the corrs from Tempest (at least 3 of which are new corrs - not sure if I know of a 4th from Tempest).
kirah_ashlin wrote:
Okay, obviously I missed something - WHO is claiming that the 3 entertainer corrs use buffbots? And what is their proof?
Drygo
Fri Dec 10, 2004 6:14 am
#581
akothas wrote:
You are an ATKentertainer. How I see it,your primary job is being social.
Meh...
Sometimes I wonder if I am an anomoly and I picked the wrong profession because of it. I never wanted to entertain to be social. The way I figure it, you can do any profession and be social. But, many entertainers agree with you that entertaining is supposed to be primarily social. Perhaps the developers even thought all an entertainer would ever want to do is dance around and chat and that's all.
I picked up dancing not to chat, but because it looked like it would be new, fun, and interesting. I actually enjoy the act of dancing and the performance aspect of it. And, that's why I picked it up. It was never my intention to just sit on my duff behind the computer screen and chat all day as my primary profession. No offense to those who do, but it's not my thing. I just want to enjoy the game mechanical aspects of my profession (the flourishes, and the performances, and the healing, and the buffing.) And, I wanted a valid way to make money with it. When the devs gave us buffing, I think they realized that the healing part wasn't cutting it for the entertainer community because relying on tips didn't seem to work for most people. And, I believe that they wanted to give us a tangible way to set a price and take part in the economy and the interdepency of the game, and that's what I wanted to do. Unfortunately, the buffbots take away that opportunity from me.
You may believe that the primary role for an entertainer is being social. Many of my fellow entertainers believe the same thing. I don't. In fact, it's probably the lowest thing on my list of things that a dancer can do that I feel is part of my role. There are other things I want to do as a dancer that I feel is more my role. And, I feel that I should be able to use those abilities as a guaranteed way of making some credits, just like a combat player has a clear role where he or she can make some money. And, the buffbots take away this part of the game for me. And, I don't think that was intended by the devs, no matter how good of a macro system they have, and no matter how much they support their macro system. There's no way that you're going to convince me that the combination of the macro system and buffing is being used as intended by the developers. They wanted us to have something to be part of the economy and the interdependency. And, people such as yourself take away our only sure fire way of being part of the game in this respect.
kirah_ashlin
Fri Dec 10, 2004 6:46 am
#582
akothas wrote:
You are an ATKentertainer. How I see it,your primary job is being social.
I chose to be an entertainer in this gamebecause I could be social. I don't recall seeing a job description or signing a contract stating that it was my primary JOB. If a Master Commando wanted to spend all his online time in a cantina instead of frying NPCsno one would question him about not doing his job the way they "see it". For a fellow player to tell me what my job is supposed to be in this game is demeaning and inconsiderabe - not to mention that it shows a lack of understanding of our profession.
Look, it seems youcame here withyour mind set that buffbots cannot hurt live entertainers and continue to even after the proof that has been shown you by entertainers. That or, worse yet, you just don't care that they hurt our gameplay as long as you get use out of them. Apparently we aren't going to change your mind and you certainly aren't going to change ours. Let's just accept this and find a way to make things work once the buffbots are history in this game (if only SOE would take a page from Blizzard's book).
Petronela
Fri Dec 10, 2004 7:41 am
#583
Phrixus,
I used to dance on your server when a RL friend at work asked me to make a character on her server.
So I know how deep in to PvP you guys are, I would even say yours is about the best-organized PvP server.
But when two guildies were trying to “guilt-trip and brow-beat” me in to BoTing for the guild I ran away back to Shadowfire.
The reason I mention that is because I do remember you.
I buffed you few times and you were always very courteous and nice to me, good tipper too. I don’t ever remember you being rude or nasty to any of the entertainers.
Therefore seeing you are also a BoT pimp makes it even more sad, because I know you are not one of those obnoxious uber-l33t-jerks.
You just don’t see the issue from our side and I think regardless of who says what here it won’t change.
I know some of your suggestions are well meant, but honestly unless you level ATK entertainer from the bottom up without a combat main for support there is no way you will completely understand.
You say only people who do not wish to chat go to your BoT, well I beg to differ.
And this will really amuse you.
I danced next to your Bot while back, ATK of course. Actually quite a few people waiting in line for your BoT would chat with me, some even tried to flirt with me but many of them would refuse my offer to buff them and rather wait for "their turn" with your BoT. When I asked why, I was told because they knew you and you are “cool”.
So I take it, in mentality of some, using a friend’s BoT even if ATK entertainer is available is equal to gaining “brownie points” with the BoT’s owner.
So how exactly does their pro-BoT excuse of BoTs being more time efficient fit in here?
You say if the BoT is bothersome put it on ignore.
Well I do that, but it really doesn’t solve the problem, it’s basically like putting a paper bag over someone’s head just because they're too ugly.
Your example of your dancer friend in her own cantina is nice, and as successful as she may be at running her own business, it is not everyone’s style. I don’t like to be lonely in mostly empty cantina. I want to dance with a group, bandflo, chat, teach newbies, meet new people. All that without having to spend 15 minutes after each login putting all the spammers on my ignore list just so I can actually see the conversation.
But you see, even if I have the AFKers on ignore it doesn’t help, because each customer who walks in, is immediately drowned in sea of AFK barking and their mood automatically turns sour and I can’t blame them.
Please, do not misunderstand my post, it’s not meant as a flame or attack. Just my personal observation of how I see things from my end.
Deli'ah
I used to dance on your server when a RL friend at work asked me to make a character on her server.
So I know how deep in to PvP you guys are, I would even say yours is about the best-organized PvP server.
But when two guildies were trying to “guilt-trip and brow-beat” me in to BoTing for the guild I ran away back to Shadowfire.
The reason I mention that is because I do remember you.
I buffed you few times and you were always very courteous and nice to me, good tipper too. I don’t ever remember you being rude or nasty to any of the entertainers.
Therefore seeing you are also a BoT pimp makes it even more sad, because I know you are not one of those obnoxious uber-l33t-jerks.
You just don’t see the issue from our side and I think regardless of who says what here it won’t change.
I know some of your suggestions are well meant, but honestly unless you level ATK entertainer from the bottom up without a combat main for support there is no way you will completely understand.
You say only people who do not wish to chat go to your BoT, well I beg to differ.
And this will really amuse you.
I danced next to your Bot while back, ATK of course. Actually quite a few people waiting in line for your BoT would chat with me, some even tried to flirt with me but many of them would refuse my offer to buff them and rather wait for "their turn" with your BoT. When I asked why, I was told because they knew you and you are “cool”.
So I take it, in mentality of some, using a friend’s BoT even if ATK entertainer is available is equal to gaining “brownie points” with the BoT’s owner.
So how exactly does their pro-BoT excuse of BoTs being more time efficient fit in here?
You say if the BoT is bothersome put it on ignore.
Well I do that, but it really doesn’t solve the problem, it’s basically like putting a paper bag over someone’s head just because they're too ugly.
Your example of your dancer friend in her own cantina is nice, and as successful as she may be at running her own business, it is not everyone’s style. I don’t like to be lonely in mostly empty cantina. I want to dance with a group, bandflo, chat, teach newbies, meet new people. All that without having to spend 15 minutes after each login putting all the spammers on my ignore list just so I can actually see the conversation.
But you see, even if I have the AFKers on ignore it doesn’t help, because each customer who walks in, is immediately drowned in sea of AFK barking and their mood automatically turns sour and I can’t blame them.
Please, do not misunderstand my post, it’s not meant as a flame or attack. Just my personal observation of how I see things from my end.
Deli'ah
Shaizann
Fri Dec 10, 2004 2:23 pm
#584
I'm just so very tired of the whole fight. 
Phrixus, it's really not helpful for you to tell me what my 'job' is. It is quite inconsiderate of you to proport what I should do with every moment of my game time. I like to play tune and buff folks, and I also like to go outside of the cantina here and again and do other things. I've never quite understood why alot of the combat folk insist that we absolutely have to be there for them twenty-four hours a day. Many folks have listed during the length of this discourse how it is possible to fight without buffs and what have you, or to work the issue of raising stats sufficiently with food/drink. It is an unfortuante consequence of MMO gaming that folks feel the need to be the 'best' no matter who they hurt. It is a community after all and they would do well to remember it. Over the couse of four years of EverQuest I saw many player on player griefing in the name of being the 'best'. This sitiuation with bots is part of the same general issue with MMO gaming. I became an entertainer because that is a *huge* part of the reason I bought SWG in the first place. However, I like to do other things as well. So, I ask you not to proport that my only place is in the cantina and that I should do nothing else. I accept that part of what I do is to buff and heal folks as an entertainer, and that is fine by me. I enjoy doing it, but it's not the sole reason I play by a long shot.
Really though, I'm at a loss for what else can be said at this point. I would go so far to say that this thread has had nearly every point of view possible on the topic presented at one time or another. If the developers of this game would finally take the action they're going to take and deal with this issue one way or another I'd be happy at this point. A resolution...any resolution...would be better than agonizing over thisissue month in and month out. They need to do something or not, but adesign choice and implementation needs to be made. I am tired...and spent...