Dancer Archive

While it is true you can do alot without entertainer buffs with food. I try and use them as often as I can cause I enjoy talking to my entertainer friends.

And they are not bad at all the buffs I mean. I mean they give you like 1000 more mind and 600 or something more focus and will power for 2h 7 sec without having to eat food that much. If non at all sometimes.

I just tried to make a little statement to super pvp d00d with the big ego and the big mouth who cries when there is no live entertainers arround and excuses him self to go use a buff bot so that you guys wont ruin his game experience

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akothas wrote:

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DanceRulez wrote:
Once the ability to bot is removed, I doubt as many will actually cancel as many people seem so quick to think. I bet most will continue to keep the accounts for lots if nothing else, and then probably find something else to do with the character to have an alternate profession or support for their main. Of course if it causes someone to quit from the game altogether, then I would say that the game is better off for it because such a person is probably interested only in a limited (or solo) gaming experience and has little or no desire to contribute toward a community experience for other players which is kinda the point of a multi-player online game.

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Would I cancel my buffbot account if AFK macros were removed? You are correct, I probably wouldnt simply because I make enough money to keep paying for him without worrying about it. Some people do not have that option though, if it dosent benifit them enough in game they will cancel.

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I didn't try to argue that there wouldn't be some people who would quit over the change to remove AFK macroing. Certainly there would be a fanatical few who would quit just due to the change itself, and likely a few others who have become so dependent on AFK macroing directly or indirectly that they may drop out gradually once the change has been made because they just can't adapt to the game anymore. As far as financial reasons, sure there might again be a few who may be pressured to save money rather than keep the extra account open, but based on the cost of buying an extra key, paying the extra monthly service, and keeping a computer running 24/7 for a bot, I'd say that your average bot owner is not hurting financially to begin with and likely set it up for more reasons than just mind buffs and heals, though you would know more about this than I. Take away the ability to let it run autonomously, and most would probably just find something else to do with it since they have it anyway.

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The only difference would be is that the rest of the community that uses him would no longer have that option avaliable, and that would upset alot of people that have nothing to do with buffbots other than getting buffs.

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We're not exactly talking about "innocent bystanders" here. The bot users are not the victims. They're as much a part of the problem as the bot owners - probably moreso. Now you can make all the arguments you want about the benefits of having bots, but that's not the point. The point is that at the heart of it there has to be a design decision as to whether game mechanics will be provided at reliable times and locations by static facilities or NPC's, or whether they will be provided by players who have limitations in play time, and can wander freely through the game world. (There can be some overlap such as the ability of med centers or cantinas to heal over time, but these built-in mechanics have been purposely set to be far inferior to player provided mechanics. Vendors do not really count here, because they do not create items, but merely serve as a convenient repository for item exchange. They are also limited to stock onhand which is highly variable, and you may often still need to seek a live crafter or gatherer to get the exact type of item you may want.) Once you create an automaton that dispenses the same game mechanics as a live player, you've just created an NPC and negated the entire purpose of having the player provided mechanics.

As an example, there are no speeder repair technicians in the game. Why? Because the devs intended to deliver this mechanic via static garages in both player and NPC cities and which are available 24/7 in reliable locations to drive up, self-service, and drive off. Otherwise perhaps Artisans would have a Vehicle Repair skill to fix speeders instead. To have both would clearly be redundant, yet that is essentially the state that the entertainer profession is in now.

This returns us to that basic design decision that I mentioned before: if mind buffs and mind/bf healing are to be part of the game, are those mechanics going to be distributed via NPC or facility means, or via players - namely entertainers. Given the current state of the game we entertainers were beginning to feel that due to both the devs' and CSRs' indifference and unwillingness to take any sort of stand against the rising buffbots, that perhaps they were reconsidering our entire place and existence in the game - they were letting us be replaced by virtual NPCs (which seems redundant to say). The next logical step along this line is to remove the entertainer professions (Dancer and Musician at least) altogether. (If you want to worry about hurting other people's playing experience, what would you think about removing it entirely?)

Fortunately SOETyrant did take the time to come in here and reassure us that they do intend for entertainers to continue to be part of the game, and that removing the ability to AFK macro is a priority issue that they intend to address as soon as possible. That alone will not "fix" the entertainer professions, and using this change to eliminate buffbots and AFK zombies is somewhat like using an elephant gun to kill a rat, but the truth is the looping macro problem goes far beyond entertainer bots and zombies whether other players see it or not. The other solution to our problem is a revamp to better define our purpose in the game and hopefully add more content to support our playstyle, and I think that will be addressed in some of the upcoming combat and GCW revamps and in the profession revamp that SOETyrant promised is in the works (though it will be a while).

As far as taking away an option for others, I would say it was an option they were never meant to have.

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It would hurt other peoples gaming expierence that depend on the system that is in place as of now. Im not saying they couldnt get over it, but it is a major change.

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Of course it's a big change, and of course it will affect how many people play and of course it will take some getting used to for some, even many. It would be foolish to argue otherwise. However you seem to be suggesting that the system that is in place now is adequate. I doubt you would agree that it is, and I doubt that many others would agree either. It's the nature of this game that its state can change at any time, and at this particular point in time I'm fairly certain that most people would agree that it needs some significant changes. That's why the devs are focusing most of their development efforts right now on revamping major systems and professions.

At the same time, not all changes will be popular or will be perceived by some or even most of the players as "good" changes. The devs have to make their decisions based on what is best for the game overall and what is possible to do in the time frame and with the resources they have available. The vendor changes of a little while back would be an example of a change the devs felt was necessary for the game overall, even if many of the players preferred the previous system and the change may have added inconvenience to their play experience.

Imagine this hypothetical situation for a moment. Suppose that when the game went live, there was some test command from beta that would summon a skill frog to a player's current location and allow access to any skill or most any item or resource in the game and that due to some oversight it was accidentally left active with all it's supporting code. Maybe on a whim some player from beta discovered that it was still working, and word soon spread that this command was available in the live game. Assume further that the devs are so busy working on so many other critical bugs and even a game expansion, that they don't have time to do anything about this skill frog command for several months. In the meantime, many of the players are getting used to the ability to have free access to items and resources and skills at any time, and it's not considered an exploit because it's a dev created command available to anyone who wants to use it. Then the devs finally get some time in their schedule to work on the skill frog command. Should they not remove it because it would hurt the playstyle of those people who have become used to playing with this feature, or remove it in the best interests of the game even though many people will complain about this system that they've come to depend on? Now I know my example is kinda made up, but it has a definite parallel with the current AFK macro issue.

Also I notice that you seem to be focusing only on this one issue of AFK macros and the effect its removal might have. You seem to be ignoring the larger issue that there are, in fact, several changes coming both in the near term and far term that will likely have significant impact on how combat is done, the effectiveness of armor and weapons, the effectiveness of buffs, who delivers which healing and how and where it's done. At this point I doubt even the devs know how it will all end up working once all the relevant changes have been made much less any of us. It therefore seems fruitless to spend too much time worrying about where people are going to get their mind buffs and heal from once buffbots are disabled. It's at most a short term problem between the time that AFK macros are removed and the time that the HAM revamp and buffing system changes are implemented - assuming that the macro change is even finished first. The 'critical' mind buff of today may become a mere convenience later or possibly even something totally different.

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It would slightly hurt the owners of bots and greatly effect the community that uses them, and only benifit a small minority that wants only ATK playing in SWG.

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Ok, now I definitely have to call you on this one. "Small minority", huh? So you have numbers on this, or you have personally interviewed the vast majority of the player base to back up this statement as fact? I don't think so. You can't just throw out an assertion like this. Now I freely admit I don't know one way or the other what the majority of the player base would support, but I know the truth is that there is going to be more of a spectrum of support for AFK play from those who strongly support the ability to AFK macro to those who think it should not be allowed at all. In most cases the majority lie somewhere between the two extremes, meaning that many players may utilize AFK macros to some extent directly or indirectly, but also that many players likely have an attitude of "If it's there, I'll use it. If not, I won't.". This is not a case of a minority imposing their will on the majority as you seem to be implying. While those who support ATK-only likely are a minority, so are those who think that AFK macros are an important or even critical part of the game. I think the majority will follow along with whatever decision is made. Though each has different long-term consequences.

I can't help but to compare this game to EQ when it comes to the argument about AFK macros. I played EQ for about two years, and only got up to about level 40 or so out of a max of 65 or whatever it is now. In all that time I never managed to max out my character. I also thought the loot/money and leveling systems in that game were rather stingy and frustrating at times, but overall I still had fun with it. There was little in the way of macros available in EQ, and certainly nothing that would allow you to AFK in the game, but lots of people enjoyed playing it, and it certainly never seemed to hurting for subscribers. When I started playing SWG I started with dancer, and within three or four months I had mastered it, and I also mastered tailor within a month or two. I managed to max out my character within the first six months of playing. Thanks to the mission terminals, money was also fairly easy to come by. It didn't take me long to realize that I could earn thousands of credits by running delivery missions between far-flung points if I wanted to, and I could use that to increase my savings if tips were a bit low.

Compared to a game like EQ, SWG is much faster to level through, and it's much easier to earn money if you want to. I don't buy the argument from people who say that they need the ability to AFK macro to level their character because it really doesn't take that long in comparison. I tend to think that this type of person is either too lazy or too impatient to put the limited effort that it does take to build a character. Some of these same people claim that they have only a very limited amount of time to play so they don't have to time to waste leveling, but then I question what their expectations are from the game. How are they going to make friends, contribute to a guild, or contribute to the game in any real way if their time is so limited? If all they want to do is try to solo their way through the game, then why even bother joining a multiplayer game? If they're really that intent on trying to play, then maybe they should consider trying to purchase someone else's developed character. I'm sure those aren't too hard to find.

Then some people claim they need AFK macros to grind their way through "boring professions". To this I have two thoughts. First is that if they find the grind boring then perhaps that is a profession they shouldn't be doing in the first place. There are probably other players who do enjoy it so leave it to them and do something else. My other thought is that there is a valid problem here, and that is that for at least some of the professions, there is not sufficient content or opportunity for players in the novice levels. This must be addressed via fundamental changes to the profession so that players of all levels can concentrate more on enjoying playing the level they're on, and worry less about "grinding" to get to the next higher level. Either way AFK macros are merely a crutch and not a solution to the problem.

In any case, the only reason that AFK macroing is an issue at all is that the devs decided to give it a try in the first place. If it had never been introduced into the game, I doubt very much that many people would be demanding that it be added to the game. I think they would instead be pushing for the solution to the core problems of the game rather than desperately trying to cling to an easily exploitable crutch built into the game mechanics.

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Fact is there are two sides to this issue, and the Devs realize this. They are torn between taking macros out to please people that endorse ATK gaming and keeping them to please the community that runs/use them. I will say they are going to do whatever makes them the most money, because that is what business is all about. I dont know the "behind the scenes" of SWG, but if they are considering taking them out, somehow there must be profit in it. Perhaps they havent yet because they see there are making a profit in keeping them ... your guess is as good as mine.

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On this you are correct. SOETyrant did say that there is a difference of opinions among the devs on this issue, but regardless, the decision has been made to remove the ability to AFK macro for the health of the game. It seems to have taken them some time to come to this decision as for quite a while they had no intention of removing the looping macro. I get the feeling it was probably because they didn't want to back out of a decision they had already made - perhaps with some degree of contention. Eventually something did seem to change their minds and fairly quickly a few months ago (perhaps due to a change in the leadership of the dev team). I don't know what it was that caused the change, though I'd love to know what *really* went on behind the scenes. As to why they haven't done so already, I'd say it's because the decision to remove them is a fairly recent one and they already had a lot of large and high priority issues on the table that they had to work on first so it probably breaks down to scheduling. I doubt it has to do directly with profits. For the most part, gradual changes like this have little or no direct effect on profits. Expansions might, but otherwise profits are going to depend more on whether people are continuing to enjoy the game, what kind of reviews the game gets, and word of mouth. These are slow variables and changes in profit will probably only be noticed in larger time frames.

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psycocat wrote:

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Bridgebuilder wrote:

Either we like or dislike afk macros, one thing remains a fact, they contribute to the community in general.

<deleted to shorten this post >

AFK entertainers can just as easily go to out of the way places to grind. The additional experience is not so great to warrant constant absence in a group. Entertainers, like in any business, compete with each other for business. The pressence of AFK entertainers in the open draws business away from those who are not.

However AFK entertainers, purely AFK entertainers can help groups as is meantioned here. This is differenciated by buffbots. Buffbots do not want to help the entertainer community. They are in fact detrimental to it. Buffbots do not want and refuse to join entertainer groups and report those who invite them to one. They harm the entertainer economy by under cutting buff prices to such a degree that the buff is of no worth. This comes from them not being there to ensure that they are paid. Because they are constantly absent the AFK buffbot teaches the general public that entertainers are no more than robotic vending machines that give free stuff. There are many here on this board that have shared their stories of how they were treated as a robot, or worse, a slave.

<deleted to shorten this post >

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P.S. Yes I edited all the typos from the previous post. Some of them made it extremely hard to read and leave the reader thinking the poster is not very intelligent.

Message Edited by psycocat on 12-02-2004 10:07 PM

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Buffbots DO NOT get paid.

It is treated like a free service. How do I know? I did it! For a while, before the Jedi Revamp, there were 13+ Jedi in Mafia on Gorath. They were all on the BH terminals. They were kind of trapped in our city not being able to go to far just in case a group of 20 came to kill them. They begged me to dance AFK while I was at work so they could grind out the millions of XP they needed. I did it in a remote cantina our city The 5 Points or sometimes in the guild hall to help them out.

My Thanks?

I hardly ever and often never got tipped. My guild was using me to run Monkk and Janta missions that paided 25-30k per mission and I would only see 1 or 2 tips of 2-3k. Some expected me and some demanded that I drop whatever I was doing and travel back to the 5 Points to give them a mind buff. I was treated like a robot because I let myself become a robot. This not only had a negative effect on my game play, this attitude of theirs extended the guild's Doctor as well. I quit Dancer and she gave up most of doctor. I became a Driod Engineer and hated it. I missed being a Dancer So I went back to it ATK this time. (She has moved on and has become a doctor again)

Guess What?

I enjoy being a ATK Dancer. I have friends who come to see me dance and if I haven't seen them in a while, they fill me in and tell me what they have been up to. Sometimes we RP out the meeting, sometimes we just BS in tells. I play at player events with the Kreetles and I look forward to doing so.

Harassment goes to the state of the mind?

Well, here is my statement to SOE. Buffbots are affecting game play negatively. In Addition to the SPAM that is associated with most Buffbots and against the Policies of SOE, It has been my personal experiance that Buffbots not only devalue the entertainer professions but OTHER service professions as well. As such, ANY buffbot I see will get reported.

Don't think /report will have an effect?

Wrong. 2 nights ago someone was spamming an emote bad. Every 3 seconds bad. Out of frustration, I did /report and /addignore and forgot about them. A few minutes later I got a email, my customer service ticket created with the /report had been answered. In short, "We apologize. We have addressed the issue. Due to privacy issues, we cannot discuss our action.". Guess who was missing from the cantina?

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Isleh wrote:

Buffbots DO NOT get paid.

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psycocat wrote:

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Isleh wrote:

Buffbots DO NOT get paid.

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More proof of what I said...Buffbots hurt the entertainer community by not being around to collect tips and the community thinks it is ok to not pay them.

An end to buffbots needs to come around.

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I run a buffbot in Coronet, and I have no problem getting paid. Ive made about 30 million credits in the last 2 months.

Sometimes I get a wild hair, and join the entertainer group. I know they dont get paid as well as I do, becauseI am there 23/7 and alot of peopleget their buffs from me. They are quite suprised when I:

/splitCreditsWithGroup 1000000 (a2-3 times or so, giving 100-150k per person in a 20 person group)

To this day I have given away about 10 million credits to other Entertainers. I have given my macro out about 50 times now, and alot of theEntertainersare using themacro I gave them to run their own bot and steal my customers!!11!1! ... but I dont care at all. Most of my customers respect me and most of the other entertainers respect me, and I show respect back. Not everyone is happy with my playstyle (mostly the PRO-ATK hysterical macro H473R5) but you cannot make everyone happy. When they change the system, I will adapt, just like I always have. Point is, just treat others how you want to be treated, and all will be good. I have had no problems with my buffbot to this day. (other than flames here on the Entertainer boards.)

By running your bot you have already shown a large measure of disrespect by default.

Letting your computer run an application macro while you are off doing something else is not a play style. Good grief people I really don't give a rip anymore that you want to take advantage of every loophole and exploit there is but quit trying to claim it's playing. You aren't there, you aren't enjoying time in the game, you aren't playing. Your computer can't create a playstyle but its the only friggin thing using the game.

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akothas wrote:

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psycocat wrote:

P.S. Yes I edited all the typos from the previous post. Some of them made it extremely hard to read and leave the reader thinking the poster is not very intelligent.

Message Edited by psycocat on 12-02-2004 10:07 PM

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Thought Id point this out before you think someone is not intelligent because of their spelling and grammer.

I cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdgnieg THE PAOMNNEHAL PWEOR OF THE HMUAN MNID. Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it woutht porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Amzanig, huh?

So much for all the spelling tests we ever had...

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akothas wrote:

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psycocat wrote:

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Isleh wrote:

Buffbots DO NOT get paid.

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More proof of what I said...Buffbots hurt the entertainer community by not being around to collect tips and the community thinks it is ok to not pay them.

An end to buffbots needs to come around.

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I run a buffbot in Coronet, and I have no problem getting paid. Ive made about 30 million credits in the last 2 months.

Sometimes I get a wild hair, and join the entertainer group. I know they dont get paid as well as I do, becauseI am there 23/7 and alot of peopleget their buffs from me. They are quite suprised when I:

/splitCreditsWithGroup 1000000 (a2-3 times or so, giving 100-150k per person in a 20 person group)

To this day I have given away about 10 million credits to other Entertainers. I have given my macro out about 50 times now, and alot of theEntertainersare using themacro I gave them to run their own bot and steal my customers!!11!1! ... but I dont care at all. Most of my customers respect me and most of the other entertainers respect me, and I show respect back. Not everyone is happy with my playstyle (mostly the PRO-ATK hysterical macro H473R5) but you cannot make everyone happy. When they change the system, I will adapt, just like I always have. Point is, just treat others how you want to be treated, and all will be good. I have had no problems with my buffbot to this day. (other than flames here on the Entertainer boards.)

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Meanwhile, every other Master Muscian/Dancer ATK in the Cantaina, has made NOTHING from buffs except for what you dole out to them. Oh, thank you soooo much for admitting it.

As a buffbot owner, you admit it, you acknowledge it and then you wonder why people hate it?

Get a clue

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Isleh wrote:

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akothas wrote:

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psycocat wrote:

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Isleh wrote:

Buffbots DO NOT get paid.

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More proof of what I said...Buffbots hurt the entertainer community by not being around to collect tips and the community thinks it is ok to not pay them.

An end to buffbots needs to come around.

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I run a buffbot in Coronet, and I have no problem getting paid. Ive made about 30 million credits in the last 2 months.

Sometimes I get a wild hair, and join the entertainer group. I know they dont get paid as well as I do, becauseI am there 23/7 and alot of peopleget their buffs from me. They are quite suprised when I:

/splitCreditsWithGroup 1000000 (a2-3 times or so, giving 100-150k per person in a 20 person group)

To this day I have given away about 10 million credits to other Entertainers. I have given my macro out about 50 times now, and alot of theEntertainersare using themacro I gave them to run their own bot and steal my customers!!11!1! ... but I dont care at all. Most of my customers respect me and most of the other entertainers respect me, and I show respect back. Not everyone is happy with my playstyle (mostly the PRO-ATK hysterical macro H473R5) but you cannot make everyone happy. When they change the system, I will adapt, just like I always have. Point is, just treat others how you want to be treated, and all will be good. I have had no problems with my buffbot to this day. (other than flames here on the Entertainer boards.)

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Meanwhile, every other Master Muscian/Dancer ATK in the Cantaina, has made NOTHING from buffs except for what you dole out to them. Oh, thank you soooo much for admitting it.

As a buffbot owner, you admit it, you acknowledge it and then you wonder why people hate it?

Get a clue

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You act like you cannot do the same thing. Just because you dont want to dosent mean you cannot. I am not doing anything special, as you probably already know how easy it is to write a macro.

And like I said, most of the people do not hate it. I play several characters, and have randomly asked players what they think, and they dont mind at all. As a matter of fact, there are three (yes, three) correspondentsthat use him on a regular basis, as well as a vast majority that enter the cantina.

I am not saying your opinion dosent count, but it dosent matter in my world whatsoever.

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akothas wrote:

You act like you cannot do the same thing. Just because you dont want to dosent mean you cannot. I am not doing anything special, as you probably already know how easy it is to write a macro.

And like I said, most of the people do not hate it. I play several characters, and have randomly asked players what they think, and they dont mind at all. As a matter of fact, there are three (yes, three) correspondentsthat use him on a regular basis, as well as a vast majority that enter the cantina.

I am not saying your opinion dosent count, but it dosent matter in my world whatsoever.

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akothas wrote:

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Isleh wrote:

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akothas wrote:

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psycocat wrote:

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Isleh wrote:

Buffbots DO NOT get paid.

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More proof of what I said...Buffbots hurt the entertainer community by not being around to collect tips and the community thinks it is ok to not pay them.

An end to buffbots needs to come around.

---

I run a buffbot in Coronet, and I have no problem getting paid. Ive made about 30 million credits in the last 2 months.

Sometimes I get a wild hair, and join the entertainer group. I know they dont get paid as well as I do, becauseI am there 23/7 and alot of peopleget their buffs from me. They are quite suprised when I:

/splitCreditsWithGroup 1000000 (a2-3 times or so, giving 100-150k per person in a 20 person group)

To this day I have given away about 10 million credits to other Entertainers. I have given my macro out about 50 times now, and alot of theEntertainersare using themacro I gave them to run their own bot and steal my customers!!11!1! ... but I dont care at all. Most of my customers respect me and most of the other entertainers respect me, and I show respect back. Not everyone is happy with my playstyle (mostly the PRO-ATK hysterical macro H473R5) but you cannot make everyone happy. When they change the system, I will adapt, just like I always have. Point is, just treat others how you want to be treated, and all will be good. I have had no problems with my buffbot to this day. (other than flames here on the Entertainer boards.)

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Meanwhile, every other Master Muscian/Dancer ATK in the Cantaina, has made NOTHING from buffs except for what you dole out to them. Oh, thank you soooo much for admitting it.

As a buffbot owner, you admit it, you acknowledge it and then you wonder why people hate it?

Get a clue

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You act like you cannot do the same thing. Just because you dont want to dosent mean you cannot. I am not doing anything special, as you probably already know how easy it is to write a macro.

And like I said, most of the people do not hate it. I play several characters, and have randomly asked players what they think, and they dont mind at all. As a matter of fact, there are three (yes, three) correspondentsthat use him on a regular basis, as well as a vast majority that enter the cantina.

I am not saying your opinion dosent count, but it dosent matter in my world whatsoever.

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