Dancer Archive
Thread: Inspirations and Bots: Time Investment
Ihareo wrote:
We all read what Panthu said about why the last coorospondant quit. We all read where it was stated that the only DEV who was on board with us about the AFKers ALSO wanted to get rid of entertainers all together along with recursive macros.
As for the "promise" of getting rid of recursive macros, that was Tyrant and yes he's gone. It's not the only option though, it never was the only option. It was just the one the boss man liked and now he's moved on. 
I know Esh is on the ball! I'll keep my Glowie nose clean for a while.
Panthu wrote:
Ihareo wrote:
We all read what Panthu said about why the last coorospondant quit. We all read where it was stated that the only DEV who was on board with us about the AFKers ALSO wanted to get rid of entertainers all together along with recursive macros.
Whoa!! Ok, that's why Corrs and Glowies aren't supposed to talk like I do anymore, lol. I always have though, go back and look, I said almost the same exact things about Devs on Ents a year ago.
The AFK thing is a tricky subject. There are not any Devs who love Bots. I never meant to imply that. Look, the Devs do not share a Hive Mind... it's a little silly to think they would.
If the Devs wanted us gone, we would be. There is no reason that this game has to have Ents. We are here because someone thought it would be a cool idea to have Social profs and we are allowed to stay because Devs do like us. They just don't all agree on how to handle us and our development isn't as straight forward as say, Combat Development for that reason.
*le sigh* I guess I do talk too much. I just want this community to get into a position where we can start saying "yes" to Devs and stop feeling so slighted. If I'm not helping that along though, I'll just go zip it for a while.
i don't care how many devs love us, or how much of a beloved pet project we are. i still think this is a bad move.
Jessalyn_Bohicat wrote:
i still don't see how making our buffs in completely passive and out of our control in any way benefits our profession or playstyle. please enlighten me!
i don't care how many devs love us, or how much of a beloved pet project we are. i still think this is a bad move.
It's what they do.
It's ok if you don't understand the benefit right awa to having a boost in XP gain and stuff, it's kinda hard to grasp concidering it's all theoretical right now.
But let me put it this way. When I told my husband about the new buffs he was shocked and is concidering coming back to SWG.
Everyone who also playes WoW will know how big a boost somthihg like this is.
And concider, it hasn't been pushed to live yet, so there's still plenty of time to tweak it.
Ihareo wrote:
Jessalyn_Bohicat wrote:
i still don't see how making our buffs in completely passive and out of our control in any way benefits our profession or playstyle. please enlighten me!
i don't care how many devs love us, or how much of a beloved pet project we are. i still think this is a bad move.
It's what they do.
It's ok if you don't understand the benefit right awa to having a boost in XP gain and stuff, it's kinda hard to grasp concidering it's all theoretical right now.
But let me put it this way. When I told my husband about the new buffs he was shocked and is concidering coming back to SWG.
Everyone who also playes WoW will know how big a boost somthihg like this is.
And concider, it hasn't been pushed to live yet, so there's still plenty of time to tweak it.
I LOVE LOVE LOVE these buffs. I think they are one of the best ideas they've ever come up with. But, how do they benefit ME as an ENTERTAINER?
Drygo wrote:
Ihareo wrote:
What I am saying is that ranting on and on and on and on and on about how we can't possibly let anything go through that may possibly help the AFKers, even if it helps us too, is hurting us immensly.
I guess this is sort of the crux of the issue for me. I would agree, that if something helped us, even if it kinda helped the bots too, it would be ok. The problem I see is that this doesn't help us. I haven't been convinced that any kind of functionality will help us if there are bots around. It's the same problems, and more years of being pissed off and resentful. I don't want to be pissed off and resentful. But, if things are given to us without giving us some control, then I don't want them because that only means more bitterness and more resentfulness on my part. I know that about myself and that isn't going to change. I just don't see how giving us any mechanical function will help us in the slightest when we are always going to lose to buffbots. It's just frustrating and simply not worth it.
(Yeah, yeah, I know, before some of you start up, some of you can compete with buffbots. I already know that. Maybe I have to face the fact that I'm a sucky beyond sucky entertainer. I mean, I must be, right? I can't compete with the buffbots.)
Then work with esharra and put to gether some feedback on how it can be improved. It's just that simple.
Positive feedback > Negative rection
Drygo wrote:
Ihareo wrote:
Jessalyn_Bohicat wrote:
i still don't see how making our buffs in completely passive and out of our control in any way benefits our profession or playstyle. please enlighten me!
i don't care how many devs love us, or how much of a beloved pet project we are. i still think this is a bad move.
It's what they do.
It's ok if you don't understand the benefit right awa to having a boost in XP gain and stuff, it's kinda hard to grasp concidering it's all theoretical right now.
But let me put it this way. When I told my husband about the new buffs he was shocked and is concidering coming back to SWG.
Everyone who also playes WoW will know how big a boost somthihg like this is.
And concider, it hasn't been pushed to live yet, so there's still plenty of time to tweak it.
I LOVE LOVE LOVE these buffs. I think they are one of the best ideas they've ever come up with. But, how do they benefit ME as an ENTERTAINER?
Same way as mind buffs benefitted you before.
Also, this is only speculation, but I wouldn't be surprised if we gained the benefit of our insp buffs the same way as we currently benefit from healing while we dance.
Ihareo wrote:
Drygo wrote:
Ihareo wrote:
What I am saying is that ranting on and on and on and on and on about how we can't possibly let anything go through that may possibly help the AFKers, even if it helps us too, is hurting us immensly.
I guess this is sort of the crux of the issue for me. I would agree, that if something helped us, even if it kinda helped the bots too, it would be ok. The problem I see is that this doesn't help us. I haven't been convinced that any kind of functionality will help us if there are bots around. It's the same problems, and more years of being pissed off and resentful. I don't want to be pissed off and resentful. But, if things are given to us without giving us some control, then I don't want them because that only means more bitterness and more resentfulness on my part. I know that about myself and that isn't going to change. I just don't see how giving us any mechanical function will help us in the slightest when we are always going to lose to buffbots. It's just frustrating and simply not worth it.
(Yeah, yeah, I know, before some of you start up, some of you can compete with buffbots. I already know that. Maybe I have to face the fact that I'm a sucky beyond sucky entertainer. I mean, I must be, right? I can't compete with the buffbots.)
Then work with esharra and put to gether some feedback on how it can be improved. It's just that simple.
Positive feedback > Negative rection
I agree with you. 
I *think* I've been one of the more constructive, non inflammatory people giving feedback on the in development thread. I'm definitely trying to push for the things that we need, and I'm doing my best to encourage people to post there and to post there positively.
It's just that, should this go through without any changes and without giving us control, and with complete passivity, and with afk'ers still around, then I think there's no point in us having the buffs. I am certainly not saying that's what I want or prefer. I mean, I want and prefer a full profession with benefits to me and the game and interdependency with our skill points in tact. However, if the devs cannot provide that for us, if they cannot simply make these new buffs un-afk'able, then I don't want them. They are of no use to me.
Panthu wrote:
If the Devs wanted us gone, we would be. There is no reason that this game has to have Ents. We are here because someone thought it would be a cool idea to have Social profs and we are allowed to stay because Devs do like us.
Ugh, maybe I'm just cranky from spending 2 hours at the doctor's office today, but I don't pay $15 a month just to be "allowed to stay" in the game as long as I keep my mouth shut and accept whatever the devs decide to throw our way. 
The development team*chose* to include the Entertainer classes as full professions. It's even listed on the box *before* Jedi (which were supposed to be very, very, very rare according to the original design). As such, I expect to be treated as well as any other profession, with bug fixes and content additions and our issues being addressed in a timely manner.
While I am all for being courteous and reasonable when phrasing our requests, I am not going to feel *grateful* just because the devs don't kick us out on our well-toned hineys. We are paying for a service, and what we have received so far is sub-par.
I liken our treatment to the following scenario:
You go to a restaurant and pay in advance for the set-course dinner, which includes soup, an entree of chicken cordon bleu, and a dessert of chocolate mousse cake.
There are too many chefs in the kitchen, and they all have different ideas and get in each other's way.
The soup comes, but it's cold, and runny. You send it back.
You're still waiting for your soup replacement when the waiter says there will be a delay with your entree. He brings your dessert to keep you occupied. The dessert is *really* good.
The soup arrives. It's the right texture and kind of lukewarm, but you start on it anyway.
Then the waiter brings your entree. It's chicken, but there's no cordon bleu about it - just plain chicken. Also, it's burned to a crisp. You send it back.
The dessert was excellent, the soup was tolerable, but you're still hungry. The waiter brings you another mousse cake, this time with whipped cream and a cherry. It tastes delicious, but the inside of the cake isn't completely baked, so it's inedible.
Your replacement entree arrives. It's chicken cordon bleu this time, but it's still kind of burned around the edges. "Oh well," you think. "I'm hungry and it doesn't look *too* bad..."
Then the guy at the next table grabs your plate. He eats your entree. Stunned, you look at the waiter, but he only shrugs. "This *is* a restaurant, and people can eat what they like," he says.
You are just getting up to leave after this shocking treatment when a double helping of chocolate mousse cake arrives, with whipped cream and cherry, and it's properly cooked and tastes very very good.
The waiter brings you a fillet of sole. "The chefs decided on something different," he says. You didn't order this, and it smells fishy and undercooked, so you send it back. The waiter brings you a well-well-done beefsteak instead. You didn't order that either, and you don't even eat red meat, let alone anything well-done. You send it back.
At this point you're almost ready to eat that first burned, plain chicken entree - you're *that* hungry and frustrated. Do you wait to get your food, or cut your losses and find another restaurant?
Heh, now I *am* hungry. Pass the cookies. And a big group hug for Pan and all the Corrs and Glowies. We know you're working hard, and we love you . But I think for someof us, this kind of second-class treatment by the devs just won't cut it anymore.
Ihareo wrote:
Drygo wrote:
Ihareo wrote:
Jessalyn_Bohicat wrote:
i still don't see how making our buffs in completely passive and out of our control in any way benefits our profession or playstyle. please enlighten me!
i don't care how many devs love us, or how much of a beloved pet project we are. i still think this is a bad move.
It's what they do.
It's ok if you don't understand the benefit right awa to having a boost in XP gain and stuff, it's kinda hard to grasp concidering it's all theoretical right now.
But let me put it this way. When I told my husband about the new buffs he was shocked and is concidering coming back to SWG.
Everyone who also playes WoW will know how big a boost somthihg like this is.
And concider, it hasn't been pushed to live yet, so there's still plenty of time to tweak it.
I LOVE LOVE LOVE these buffs. I think they are one of the best ideas they've ever come up with. But, how do they benefit ME as an ENTERTAINER?
Same way as mind buffs benefitted you before.
Also, this is only speculation, but I wouldn't be surprised if we gained the benefit of our insp buffs the same way as we currently benefit from healing while we dance.
Same way as mind buffs did before? Hehe, they didn't. I couldn't buff myself, and I made no money from them because of buffbots. I don't see that changing if the inspiration buffs can be performed by buffbots. I am still SOL with no form of interdependency with the game world.
And, even *if* we are able to apply them to ourselves, I don't see the point. I mean, technically we don't them too because there will be buffbots around every corner for us to get them from. It's a benefit that I don't need to have because it will already be provided for me.
Therefore, while not what I want most of all, if this goes in as stated in the docs, I would much rather have no functionality, our skill points reduced to zero and an NPC for me to get my inspiration buffs.
Drygo wrote:
Same way as mind buffs did before? Hehe, they didn't. I couldn't buff myself, and I made no money from them because of buffbots. I don't see that changing if the inspiration buffs can be performed by buffbots. I am still SOL with no form of interdependency with the game world.
And, even *if* we are able to apply them to ourselves, I don't see the point. I mean, technically we don't them too because there will be buffbots around every corner for us to get them from. It's a benefit that I don't need to have because it will already be provided for me.
Therefore, while not what I want most of all, if this goes in as stated in the docs, I would much rather have no functionality, our skill points reduced to zero and an NPC for me to get my inspiration buffs.
i think the new buff is GREAT i love what it does and how it will benefit all. i am not trying to be argumentative or negative.
the issue i have is this: currently, you msut locate a master dancer or musician, ask to be in their group or to /set perf on you, and they generally quote a fee. you msut intereact with the entertainer to get a buff, even minimally. even the buffbots required interaction on the part of the buffer and the buffee.
now, you can have anyone standin around a cantina with their thumb up their a$$ playing a base song/dance with no flos and no grouping and no ANYthing. and you can wander in and jsut watch them, and gain a buff from that. you dont need to interact, theres not any way for the performer to even know if theyre giving a buff or not.
it is becoming passive and out of our hands, completely out of our control. this is bad!
comparison: they make doctor buffs passive. if you walk up to the doc, target them and type /handshake you are instantly granted their buff, with completely ZERO acion or reaction on either side of the trasaction.
why is the badness of this so hard to comprehend?
Jessalyn_Bohicat wrote:
you misunderstand me.
i think the new buff is GREAT i love what it does and how it will benefit all. i am not trying to be argumentative or negative.
the issue i have is this: currently, you msut locate a master dancer or musician, ask to be in their group or to /set perf on you, and they generally quote a fee. you msut intereact with the entertainer to get a buff, even minimally. even the buffbots required interaction on the part of the buffer and the buffee.
now, you can have anyone standin around a cantina with their thumb up their a$$ playing a base song/dance with no flos and no grouping and no ANYthing. and you can wander in and jsut watch them, and gain a buff from that. you dont need to interact, theres not any way for the performer to even know if theyre giving a buff or not.
it is becoming passive and out of our hands, completely out of our control. this is bad!
comparison: they make doctor buffs passive. if you walk up to the doc, target them and type /handshake you are instantly granted their buff, with completely ZERO acion or reaction on either side of the trasaction.
why is the badness of this so hard to comprehend?
I understand that part. What I say to you is keep up a positive outlook and be helpfull and productive with your ideas on how it can be improved.
Just for the record, I dont like the idea of passive buffs either. The idea makes me feel takenadvantage of. However, given the coice of passive inso buffs and no insp buffs I'll choose the passive ones.