Dancer Archive

I'd do it, but it'd be more like /tip Sinda 3.14 so that I could better show off my edumackashun.

Drat! There goes my evil plan to drive Sinda insane! Rats!



- J

Another note about "accepting" tips besides the possible griefing problem: you can use /tip to do a bank transfer to someone who is not even online. I think this is a useful and important feature, and of course, the offline person couldn't accept the transfer.

The fact that making it harder to do missions AFK means that missions could have larger payouts was pretty obvious to me. The easiest solution (in my mind) is to use an auto-AFK-like timeout for both missions and handling the "AFK dancer xp" problem. If you use that solution on one, you can use it on the other.


One comment about cutting off healing for AFKness as well... Someone suggested that being able to leave yourself AFK to help PA members was something that shouldn't be prevented (i.e. don't make healing stop.) I have to say that I completely disagree. While being able to help PA folks heal is nice and all, you still shouldn't be able to do it AFK, any more than an AFK doctor can heal his PA mates while away. In order to do anything at all (dancing, fighting, resource collecting, crafting, whatever), you should be actively playing the game.

The last MMORPG I played (A Tale in the Desert) had precisely two offenses that the people running the game would ban you for (other people were banned for egregious behavior using the in-game legal system). Those offenses were: using the free trial period play time on an extra account to mule, and not actually being at the keyboard while playing. You could macro all you wanted, but if you were ever visited by someone who tried to interact with you while you were not flagged AFK and you didn't respond, they could tell a CSR type about it. And if the CSR type came and you were unresponsive for more than a few minutes, you could be banned. (And: while /afk, you couldn't do *anything*. You had to sit down, and you couldn't touch any equipment.)

It might be partially because of that experience that I feel this way, but--I don't believe there's any justification for *ever* "actively" participating in a multi-player game while away from your keyboard--not even when "it's not going to bother anybody."

Digression: Imho, the afk flag should come on after a small fixed period of time, and you shouldn't be able to do anything to stop it. You should be able to manually apply the flag sooner if you want, but I can't think of single legitimate reason why you should be able to pretend you're at the keyboard when you aren't.

As for stopping missions being completed while AFK:

I'd like to see automatic disconnection after a certain amount of time AFK, but that sounds to drastic to happen. It also doesn't stop those AFK-ers who are not at their PC but are near it enough to poke the mouse every once in a while. (e.g. people who use an entertainer on their second PC, or who AFKM while watching a film etc).

I'm also in favour of the 'clicking-to-accept-payment' idea. [Plus I love idea of clicking to accept tips (the no-griefing version). I already have the word 'tip' highlighted in a really bright colour and I do my best to watch out so that I can thank people -- but I know that I *still* miss some].

Again, it's pretty easy to break from playing your main char or look up from that engrossing TV program for 10 seconds just to click in a box once in a while. But it will at least reduce AFKing somewhat and that's a good start.

The other ideas, such as dance-offs and having to perform certain flourishes would probably go a very long way to stopping AFK-missioning (erm, someone please come up with a phrase for it ) but I imagine they'd take a lot of work and perhaps we might have to wait a bit longer for those.

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Esharra wrote:

Assuming that what motivates entertainers to AFK macro is gaining experience points, how are the devs rationalizing that increasing mission payouts will encourage the macroers to use missions? (I understand they've not stated that this will happen but it does seem implied by Ravenmist'spost above)

I'm all in favor of raising mission payouts. I think it would be great encouragement for legitimateplayers to stay in our profession. Far too many potentially great entertainers have left our profession for a more profitableone.AFK macroing is motivated by the opportunity to increase the character's skill level without participation from the player.

In my experience, those who choose to macro their character's development have seemingly little concern for how they are dressed or what the game might offer them outside of the cantina. I've seen more than a few macro their way to master without changing clothes, if wearing any at all.I'm not convinced that increased mission payouts willencourage them to log outtheir characters when they are at work or class.

I think it has been well established that you can earn a lot more incredits from tipswhile presentthan you can while AFK. If we wantthose who would choose torun macroes rather than playto stay at the keyboard then we need to find a way to dangle a carrot that offers what they are motivated by..experience points..and decrease their ability to obtain their goalwhen the lights are on but there's no one home.

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Not a very good assumption. Its true that Dancers currently mostly use afk macros for exp gaining purposes but its been shown time and time again that people will use them whenever there is a benefit to be gained from doing so. The devs want to try and decrease macroing around the board and we're working on things to do this. One of the concerns about raising current mission pay as the system currently stands is that it would just lend itself to a player taking a mission and just going afk for 15 minutes to collect the reward. Money for nothin so to speak. They don't want this and I think our community as a whole doesnt want to encourage AFKness of any kind. (with the exception of going afk for 5 minutes or so to use restroom, get a drink, smoke, whatever)

There are several ideas and ways being discussed as to how to encourage people away from AFKing or making it harder on them.. taking away exp among many many things is being discussed. The goal is to try and do things in a creative way that lendsitself to the RP environment rather then changes tothe current macro system and exp system itself, but in the end that may be necessary. In the mean time the object is to not make things any easier or enticing for them while giving more bonuses to those that stay at their keyboards.

The goal of this this topic (changingmissions and increasing pay)specifically tho is to keep the missions from adding to the problem, this isn't meant to be a way to fix the problem as it stands now. Changes to the healing and mind buffs etc. being discussed will do much more in the way of fixing the problem.

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Ravenmist wrote:

Not a very good assumption. Its true that Dancers currently mostly use afk macros for exp gaining purposes but its been shown time and time again that people will use them whenever there is a benefit to be gained from doing so.

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I believe some AFKers are after tips too. Probably not as much, but I believe it happens.

People do tip AFKers. I was in Mos Entha once and was dancing with a musician. I wanted to help her xp, so when I took a shower, I went AFK. I was responsible and put up my little flag. I also told the musician what I was doing.

So I returned 15 minutes later and scrolled through my Spatial chat. People walked in and tipped me a total of 1500 credits. I was a bit offended because there was an actual musician at the keyboard. So I tipped her the money. I never checked to see if they tipped her too, but even if they did, I figure she earned it all. I was just there dancing (I guess they saw me as helpful because they could /watch and /listen).

So, with that knowledge (as well as other anecdotes given on these boards), you can make tips while AFK. And hey, you can make 20k credits an hour with destroy missions, but you can also make a few thousand while you sleep. So, that can be a lure for some AFKers.

OOC:

Ravenmist, I like your idea about having people auto-afk after a certain period of time (if they take no other action besides the macro running) and then not receiving experience while AFK. I think this would seriously cut down on the number of afk macroers who are doing it to gain experience. The others aren't as much of a problem.

People *will* find ways to work around this, but there will be far fewer who do and it would probably require third party programs which may be deemed against the TOS (this would be similar to other MMORPGs out there).

~Player of Nare Ese
Master Dancer, Kettemoor

"One of the concerns about raising current mission pay as the system currently stands is that it would just lend itself to a player taking a mission and just going afk for 15 minutes to collect the reward."

Then make mission pay relate to the length of time you need to spend doing the mission, and have the minimum mission lengthbe20 minutes (with graded pay based on skill so you get100 credits pay for a newbie, 200 for a Master), maximum 100 minutes (with 500 creds for a newbie and 1000 credits pay for a Master Dancer), and have it so thatno keyboard input automaticallygenerates a logout and a cancelled missionafter 10 minutes. That way no one will be able to take any mission without being there in person at least most of the time.

It's also important to get us moving around the galaxy, so high-pay missions should send us further afield. A 100 credit mission can be in the local hotel or casino, while a 1000 credit mission needs to be set on another planet in an out-of-the-way place. No missions should be set in a local cantina, because it's basically a hand-out - people dance in the local cantina anyway - why should they get paid for it.

The important thing with this idea is to automaticallyCANCEL the mission, so that the entertainer can't just pick it up again if he went AFK and forgot to come back in time. If we make it so that it's more trouble than it's worth to AFK (i.e. if they have to set an alarm in orderto get back in the game every 9 minutes) people will stop being AFK.

"What if finding this answer would mean turning those 170 credit missions into 2000-5000 credit missions?"

Ravenmist, please make sure they don't give us missions over 5000 credits unless it costs 4000 credits to get to the mission location. It's important that tips still be a part of an entertainer's goals, and if 5000 credit missions are available, no one will care about tips anymore. An entertainer mission should give a maximum profit of 1000 credits after travelling expenses, and even then, only a Master dancer or Master Musician, etc.should get that much. Newbie entertainers should have a maximum net profit of 500 for the highest-paying missions.

"And seriously how many people do you think are going to become master dancers just to do some missions? Not going to happen."

Erm... as I see it, that's about the only thing that'll keep me dancing as a Master Dancer. Staying in the same old cantina gets boring after a while, however good the company is, and if missions get me travelling to new places, that's what will keep it interesting for me as a Master.

"I like the idea of the auto afk flag making it so that no exp can be gained. I'm apprehensive about making it stop all healing tho because of the many dancers that stay in their PA's afk to help their PA members while they can't be there."

Hmmm. I'm not sure I agree with that. If a player is AFK long-term, he/she is not playing. While their character'spresence helps out the group, or the PA members, I don't think it should. Ifplayers want to help others, they need to be fully present in order to do it.

One thing that is silly about entertainer missions is that we just have to go into a building to perform, we do not have to talk to the NPC that needs the soothing, is doing the scouting or who we are trying to impress. My recommendation combines two types of NPC communication logic that already exists within game:

1. The multiple step missions/quests


2. The trainer understanding your current level and progressing through skills

I will try to explain the quest by detailing the steps of the quest:

1. You obtain a quest to dancer forTalentScout in cantina A


2. You go to cantina A, find TalentScout, click and choose converse


3. TalentScout says, Hello there ___ I am hear looking for talent to participate in a music holovid. Would you like to try out?and provides the options:




• What music holovid?


• I would like to try out


• Quit Conversation


4. If you choose, What music holovid?, TalentScout says, The Insand Durnii's are making a vid for there new single and they need some dancers. and provides the options:




• I would like to try out


• Quit Conversation


5. If you choose, I would like to try out, TalentScout says, Excellent, I would like to first see some of your fundamental moves. and provides the options:




• Perform Basic


• Perform Lyrical


• Quite Conversation


6. If you choose, Perform Basic, TalentScout says, Ok, find a space where you are comfortable and being performing. I will let you know when I have seen enough.


7. You then go perform Basic for a regular length of a entertainer mission. When you complete the mission, instead of getting the reward, get the message Mission complete! Return to TalentScout for your reward.


8. You go to TalentScout, click and choose converse, you receive a current standard reward ~100 cr.


9. TalentScout says,Nice work___you are definitely in the running.and provides the options:




• I would like to perform additional dances


• Quit Conversation


10. If you choose, I would like to perform additional dances, then one of two things could happen:




• If you have not advanced further in entertainer, TalentScout will not give you more options


• If you have advanced further in entertainer, TalentScout will ask to see you dance the next level of dance. The time would be the same. The reward would be another ~200 cr.

This process could repeat through your entire skill list of dancing/lightshow if you wish, or you could cancel the quest.

The benefits I see:

• It combats AFK mission dancers in two ways: one it requires interaction and two it requires that you do not always perform the highest level dance


• It allows those with morehigher boxes ofskills to earn more.


• It is using mechanisms that are already in game.


• It does not force you to travel away from a cantina, if you do not want to leave your home.

Apologies for the spelling mistakes, I should have proof read.