Dancer Archive
Thread: Dancers to be rendered superfluous to game play
Some people come to cantinas to have a good time, some are coming just for an inspiration without any word spoken.
Even with animations, it can be difficult to guess if they are watching you. It depends if they are vaguely watching the whole cantina from the very entrance or stepped in to stand in front of a specific entertainer to hint the fact they are watching him or her specifically.
Quiet master dancer on Starsider... interaction is found at mid way
There used to be a clear line: An ATK ent was ATK 100% of the time, didn't spam, didn't beg for tips.
After a while, it came to mean ATK 90% of the time.. and only spammed sometimes..
Then it was ATK some of the time...
Then AFK to level, but ATK post master..
Now it's anyone who is "not a bot," even if they AFK levelled, have the spam macro from hell, beg for tips and have one of those stupid "high tipper" lists, and continue to AFK post master - as long as they're there at least 5 minutes between starting the macro and leaving for who knows what.
So when I say I'm proud to be an ATK entertainer... even that doesn't mean much any more. Because all it takes in the eyes of the community to make you "ATK" is being there for 30 seconds to say hi to one person.
Of all the things they've taken from us, I think this is what I'm most upset about. Because who CAN respect this other version of heal-me-tip-me spambots who seem to think that exotic leotards are something new and special?
TangledMyth wrote:
i have been an ATK dancer since I started two years ago.
I have been called an snob, an elitist, a b_tch, and many
other colorful terms of endearment.
We are a dieing breed, but we are not extinct
And you are -still- a dancer. I'm a mayor. I still have the game skill of master dancer (and probably always will), but I was never truely a master. Now it's just a stealth skill for gathers and events.
"Dam! Dat hoomin chick can dance!"
Yeah,,, not a Twi' and still dancin'.
I really have no problem with them making all entertainers RP professions. The only issue I have with it is the skill point costs. We all know that most of the content has, is, and always will be combat. Being a entertainer removes too much SP to be able to do anything with this. It also leaves the entertainers vulnerable to even a durni attack.
I think the best thing that could happen to the RP game is the removal of SP for entertainers. That will open up new content to both entertainers and combat people. It won't hurt the bands or the parties, it will help them. Even maxed out combat ppl will be able to dance or jam.
I feel asking for a magic bullet to make entertainers needed to the combat game is pointless. It only took me two years to come to that... It really is fine the way it is. Sure, add more songs and props and stuff and let us all enjoy the social aspects, how it was in the beginning. But at the same time open this thing up, remove the SP as there is no combat value and that doesn't bother me in the least. Entertaining is fun, we don't do it for the combat game and we certainly don't need to force someone to come see us. I don't want that. Entertainers make content, they are needed. It shouldn't cost them for providing this service to SWG. Remove the SP cost so we are not penalized.
Mariki wrote:
I think the best thing that could happen to the RP game is the removal of SP for entertainers. That will open up new content to both entertainers and combat people. It won't hurt the bands or the parties, it will help them. Even maxed out combat ppl will be able to dance or jam.
PoetDancer wrote:
Mariki wrote:
I think the best thing that could happen to the RP game is the removal of SP for entertainers. That will open up new content to both entertainers and combat people. It won't hurt the bands or the parties, it will help them. Even maxed out combat ppl will be able to dance or jam.
I would be fine with this solution, but I do believe it should have some "limited exclusivity."
A good model to mimic if we were to make these zero SP professions is the piloting skill system. These cost no skill points, but they are mutually exclusive. A pilot cannot be Rebel, Imperial,and neutral at the same time. Receiving training in one branch opens up new skills, but at the cost of not learning the skills from the other branches.
There are advantages to doing the non-combat professions in this manner. For starters, increased combat value. Also, it may increase the interdependency between characters, since characters would be only able to pursue a single non-combat mastery, instead of two and three (and in an entertainer's case, four).
I know a lot of us like to craft, play music, and dance. We enjoy the versatility. Would we be willing to give this up in order to increase our combat viability? I would, but frankly, I am not a musician or a crafting hybrid.
But I do not think that these professions should be like politician. It is hard to roleplay a professional dancer when dancer is no longer a skilled profession, but just another stack of emotes available for an unattended grind.
Actually, pilot may not be a good example as this is a combat role and does have a viable source of income in several forms. If we had even a fraction of the content pilots have, I don't think we would be complaining.
Politician is a much better example as everything they contribute benefits other people, much like us. It also has no source of income unless they swindle the city 
As the RP proffession we have been for quite some time, we provide social content which really doesn't justify a SP cost. I also don't think we will suddenly get a huge influx of entertainers but if we did, it really hurts no one and is a benefit if anything. I don't think all the combat people will drop what they do to become entertainers but I think they will learn as they go at social events as far as dancing.
I really don't see why anything has to be limited except perhaps content that adds to the combat game. I think all buffs should be removed includingthe inspiration buff. Other then that, let the grind stay the same of course. If you want to do a band or something, you still have to learn the skills.
Grinding a proffession to master doesn't produce fame. The best entertainers on our server worked for the fame they have with songs and arrangements. That isn't going to change and will always be the determining factor. But I welcome the talented to explore their creativity, even the elite combat people. I think everyone should be able to get together and party from time to time, no matter what they normally do in SWG.
Message Edited by PoetDancer on 06-21-2005 11:41 PM
Skinnymcgee wrote:
i gotta say i am atk all the time(aside from the potty breaks i'm only human) and i make very little tips but that is not what it is about, if you want to make money pick up id or a crafting proffesion on the side. I personally only dance simply because i love chatting with people, hell sometimes it seems like i am the only one talking on guild chat.Of course the lack of tips may have something to do with being a male wookiee.
No. I want to make money doing this. Because frankly, I'm better at this than other professions.
I do not do this profession to converse. Iconverse because it is my work.
Do these professions not have any meaning to us anymore? They are fun professions. But they are professions.
Because frankly, I do not see much interest other than from we dancers to give combatants our dancing skills. If they are to have our dancing skills without sacrificing their other character plans, then let them come here and indicate this to us, or to the developers.
But I really don't think these players will start doing the things we do just because they have the skills. They never have before, and as far as we are concerned, my bet is that we'd be too busy filling in the free skillboxes to do much "partying" in any event.
Panthu wrote:
XStarbracer wrote:
The problem now is what its always been the "real" entertainers. These Changes make Dancer gameplay more fun, but you need more? you need to Force people to come in and pay you obscene amounts of money just to get you to talk to them because they are on some silly highest tippers list? Ents need to get over themselves, Everyone but you 'real' Entertainers know your role in the grand scheme of things, have fun enjoy yourself in your chosen profession but dont start thinking you need to be the center of the universe and forcing people to come into your cantina's solves anything. I have better things to do as do most people then to go into a cantina and get ignored until i start tipping big, most people would rather go to a bot. This game is about Star Wars, and even in Star Wars Dancers were regarded as background. Jabba got bored with his favorite dancer he fed her to the rancor. Socializing in cantinas will NEVER be the focus of SWG, its about Combat and the crafting machine that enables the combat.
Get over yourself and just enjoy your profession, dont whine because people dont need you, you and your customers will have a much better time coming to a cantina because they want to come be there. Buffbots arent to blame, its the Real Entertainers that spawned the problem.
This is why I am thrilled BF is going away. Thrilled thrilled thrilled! I don't want to heal jerks like this. *points up*
... and you know what? I don't want to buff them either! I don't want to have a darned thing they need/want! So I also totally support all of our new buffs being 100% non-combat only. Sure, there are plenty of power gamer crafters, but they don't craft by hand every few hours. They won't need a bot for 24/7 access to the bonuses we could give them.
The thing is, I agree with the jerk. Socializing shouldn't have to be a part of everyone's game just because we like it. Just like everyone isn't forced to be PvP enabled just because PvPers would like it. You should be able to opt out of the Cantina downtime if it's not your bag.
I think we need some improvements on the Cantinas themselves so that they can really function like they are intended to, as a gathering place and social hub... BUT I do not want it tied to me and my playstyle so that other players can say they are being forced to provide my content.
No thanks. I don't care how many creds you give me, I probably don't want to talk to you anyway. Not IC. Not OOC.
Bring on the Ent Updates! I'm ready to be done with this crowd!
We <3 Panthu ! /hi5
Comparable to Warryr, I welcome the changes. I am a dancer and entertainer. Not anyone's buff-wh0r€. People may or may not come to see me, but no-one should feel that (s)he has to come to see a dancer. And to fill up our profession branches props and things that enhance the range of our artistic abilities are more than welcome.
Wether they want to or not is within our power; at least sometimes. Sometimes patrons don't give you a chance. But after all - that's their problem. I am good in what I am doing and if they miss the chance I can live with it.
Besides, I am not sure wether or not I like this black and white thinking between "real" entertainers and zombies. Everyone might miss an entering patron now and then being busy in another chat. I know I do. And I don't think that every entertainer should greet anyone entering, this would be quite a mess.
And as far as I can tell, most entertainers use recursive macros to some extend (before you say anything - I don't). May it be to just flourish so that chatting is easier, or spice it up with a smile now and then...
The step to a "/ui action cycleTargetOutward", and thus to a pure afk entertainer spamming, is not exactly a big one from there.
I think we'd get along better, by simply accepting that different people have a different attitude towards dancing.
Warryyr wrote:
I don't think I've ever met any Entertainer who won't talk to someone until they tip them. Ever. Typically a "tip" comes after service is provided to someone. If an Entertainer finally says something to you after you've tipped, but not before, it's much more likely that they:
1. Have no idea you're watching or listening to them
2. Very easily may have not seen that you said something to them.
3. Were talking in groupchat and not paying attention, or were checking some email, and when you tipped them a System Message popped up and they then said thank you for you tipping them.
QFE
Well said Warryyr, when I dance I always try to greet anyone when they enter the cantina or in more packed cantina's if they come over to the part of the cantina I'm in. The dancers I used to dance with the most were the same, saying hi when the person came in or came over to us. Still with that there were lots of times I only said something to someone after they tiped and that is nearly always because of one of the three reasons Warryyr posted andas a last pointbeing married in game I'm not going to flirt with anyone no matter how much they tip. Can be ammusing how long some guys will try to flirt with me before asking if I'm single when I have my wedding ring described in my bio .
As for removing our healing of battle fatigue I'm all for it if means we get no more players feeling they are being forced to come into the cantina to socialise, I've never wanted to chat with people with this attitude and it will hopefully lead to less afk dancers with begging macros, I don't mind them being afk so much as the spam begging while they are. My old favorite cantina has had lots of these beggers pop up recently.
Message Edited by Allia_Rain on 06-22-2005 01:15 PM
Panthu wrote:
This is why I am thrilled BF is going away. Thrilled thrilled thrilled! I don't want to heal jerks like this. *points up*
Nobody ever said we have to. But I really don't care one way or another who I heal. I just want an audience. And why some amongst us have abandone all hope of ever getting through to our audience, I have found that if I make the effort to be amusing, I am quite suprised at how well I am received. I will miss having the opportunity to put on a show while these individuals get healed. But I guess if it makes you happy, then I really don't matter. Nor do combat players either, apparently.
Panthu wrote:
... and you know what? I don't want to buff them either! I don't want to have a darned thing they need/want! So I also totally support all of our new buffs being 100% non-combat only. Sure, there are plenty of power gamer crafters, but they don't craft by hand every few hours. They won't need a bot for 24/7 access to the bonuses we could give them.
Rather than having something so specialized and obscure in order to prevent 24/7 botting, why not just enforce stronger anti-botting measures? Or create a situation where bots are at a disadvantage? Because if what we are to do for a community is valuable, it is valuable enough to bot in any event. And all that will be done is to mitigate the ways we have to attract an audience.
Panthu wrote:
The thing is, I agree with the jerk. Socializing shouldn't have to be a part of everyone's game just because we like it. Just like everyone isn't forced to be PvP enabled just because PvPers would like it. You should be able to opt out of the Cantina downtime if it's not your bag.
I don't even know how to respond to this other than, when has socializing or not socializing ever prevented players from healing BF? It hasn't ever. They don't have to feel like they have to say a darn thing to me. It is up to ME and US to amuse them. Not the other way around.
So rather than make this profession about attempting to entertain an audience--and perhaps a hostile one--it seems some of us would rather haveour patrons"entertain us." When has the attempt to amuse ever been a crime? For it doesn't even matter if the players who come to the cantina to heal their BF are looking for a show. They will get one from me, nevertheless. After all, it is my job. And frankly, I'd want the opportunity to convince the "tough crowd" that I am working.
But alas, it seems that some of us lack such confidence that what we say and do in the cantina makes a difference, that they'd rather have the patrons entertain us, rather than us entertaining them. So who is the jerk now? Is it the fellow who doesn't find anything amusing for them? Or the entertainers who really don't want to be bothered by amusing them?
Panthu wrote:
I think we need some improvements on the Cantinas themselves so that they can really function like they are intended to, as a gathering place and social hub... BUT I do not want it tied to me and my playstyle so that other players can say they are being forced to provide my content.
Who is forced to do anything? If they are amused, they will tip. If they are not, then who really is to blame? I agree that there are tremendous challenges to our profession no other profession can match. But sooner or later, we have to face our responsibility and role. And our role is to dance and amuse. It was never up to us to have BF or not have it. But it seems that some dancers want to make it up to us to have or not have BF in the game. And why? Because a certain cadre of bluetags, past and present, would rather give up the attempt to amuse rather than seek out more opportunities to do it.
Panthu wrote:
No thanks. I don't care how many creds you give me, I probably don't want to talk to you anyway. Not IC. Not OOC.
Bring on the Ent Updates! I'm ready to be done with this crowd!
Frankly, I am not. So why are you shoving your vision down my throat? I have made a good living convincing the unconvincable that I am more than clutter in that cantina. And all this smacks of is a pretentiousness that we have been all to often accused of harbouring. Because it is my job to amuse this crowd. And I wonder if there will really be enough of a crowd left for us to amuse after they gut this profession of draws. Can you or anyone else guarantee a plethora of opportunities to find an audience? In the current game, all I have to do is go to Theed or Coronet. But after the nerfs? What guarantee will there be that we will have a public that needs us?
What is most sad about this statement, Panthu, is the utter lack of confidence in us as players to "win the crowd." Battle Fatigue is not--I repeat--NOT any sort of mechanic that is problematic for us, or for our patrons. It was buffs, or "positive reinforcements" that created problems. Because the fact of the matter is, if there is a limited duration enhancement that runs out, one needs a steady supply. And that can only be provided from a buffbot.
So I am glad that you feel good that you don't have to worry about the poor combat folk. I wish you much happiness dancing with the same few entertainer friends day after day.
But me? I will miss the opportunity to try and convince players like the above poster that I am an entertainer who works for it.
Because through it all, I have always been with my patrons. I am grateful for the ones that take care of me while I take care of them. We have always been together, I and them.
But it seems that just because some on both sides of the proscenium did not see the point, the game designers will rip us apart.