Dancer Archive

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Treena_Daal wrote:

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LeBob wrote:

It is not accurate to relate entertainer buff bots to Merchant's vendors. Entertainers are not agents for Entertainers; they are Entertainers. To say that Merchant's vendors are the same as entertainer buff bots is to say that the only playstyle available for Merchants is to stand around and directly sell things to people all day, and this is not true. For this to be true, "Merchants" would be called "Sellspersons", and people of this profession would not run vendors; they would be the vendors.

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Perhaps that is the root of my problem. I come from EverQuest and EverQuest 2. Whenever I have had a desire to sell things, I either had to seek people who wanted to buy them out, or (later) I would sit in the bazaar/ my inn room and sell them myself. I personally feel that Merchants should be a lot like us. They should have to be there to sell their items. I'm a Marksman and a Dancer. If I am out shooting rockmites, I am not getting experience or money from dancing. That's the way I feel it should be. But I openly admit that my experiences may distort my views. But that is still the way I view it.

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Message Edited by LeBob on 03-16-2005 11:42 PM

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Else-Whira wrote:
Maisland, make sure you make your voice known in the TC thread and the merchant forum because those of us who want this change and see it as positive are being one starred and insulted out of having a voice. If you truly want this, you have to let them know now while the devs are still watching the debate.

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Just a note Else - Maisland was agreeing with everything Doc Savag said. i.e. Searching = good, buying stuff from remote location = bad. I was confused when you agreed with her and had to go back and read the whole thread.

I think everyone loves the search option, its just the remote buying and price displays not everyone likes. Personally I dont like having the prices displayed since my guild merchants tend to sell at low prices (Yes yes, I know low-balling is frowned on), and dislike it when resellers come in and clean out their vendors without asking permission. This will allow every reseller to check prices and clean out all the low priced items. I understand that reselling is a viable merchant strategy - but personally I think that cleaning out someone's vendor without asking is rude. However, BECAUSE we sell so low the higher sellers will have no choice but to either clean us out or lower their own prices. And so we will have to raise ours in order to keep from getting cleared out. Its just a big headache for us at least. I would like to have the control to not list my price if I didnt want to.

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Schardour wrote:

Because it was a real world. People want reality TV. People want to be the American Idol. This game let you do that. It wasn't another FPS. It wasn't another frag-fest. It wasn't another drive-thru video game. But it's quickly turning into one, and more and more players are leaving! Player turnover is skyrocketing not because the game sucks, but because there's nothing tieing them to the game! People want to feel like they're a part of something, and that something is a community. There's no community when every player is out in the field shooting at rancors and becoming loot-whores. I'm sorry, but the American vision of "convenience" isn't going to save this game. I firmly believe that there's much more to the social structure of an MMO than combat players using crafters and other support characters to become "ub3r."

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Ok sorry, I almost had to laugh when I read this. Real world? You really need to get outside more As for not wanting this because its a convenience....I bet I could count 500 other in game systems designed specifically around making aspects of the game "easier" for you and everyone else to play, yet I dont see you saying anything about that.

Merchants were screaming when it was a "Find and buy" system because it took out the reason to have well placed shops etc. Any merchant who dosnt like the system can now simply not put vendors into it...and also, players now have to go to the shop to get the items. I have a merchant character, and think that this system is a good idea because of how many "Poor quality" merchants are in the game...empty vendors, terrible items or super high prices. Now there is a system that is fair to everyone...merchants get more vis on thier items, prices will be more competative...and players wont have to sift through worthless shops.

If you work hard as a merchant, you will still be able to build a huge, loyal customer base who specifically demand your services.

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NemKhis wrote:

Ok sorry, I almost had to laugh when I read this. Real world?

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I am still not seeing a problem. When the change goes in, people will still have to go to your shop to pick up their items. For someone like me, that means that I will probably get there and look through everything you have. On the bazaar terminal, I won't do that. I'll find what I am looking for and move on to go get it. So you will still have people at your shop. But rather than them randomly deciding on your shop from a huge list of vaguely-named vendors, they will be there to pick up something they purchased. I don't really see the problem with allowing us to buy the item from the bazaar, then pick it up. Especially if that involves flying across the galaxy and then driving across a planet to get to the shop. If I am going to do all that to get something, I'd prefer the item I am buying to still be there when I get there. Allowing me to buy it before hand does that.

As to the price, it has to be listed. Say what you will about it forcing prices down (another good thing, in my eyes. Some items are going for WAY more than they should be at this point), but you simply cannot make an informed decision about what you are buying without the price. I think a good compromise was reached by putting the price in the description window, rather than as part of the bazaar listing. You can not organize the items by price, which prevents people from just buying the one that costs the least (at least, not without a lot of effort on their part). However, it also prevents me from seeing the item I want listed, traveling to get it, and finding out that the merchant who put it up wants 99999999999 for it, when another merchant may have only been asking 2500. Simply put, the price has to be there.

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Schardour wrote:

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NemKhis wrote:

Ok sorry, I almost had to laugh when I read this. Real world?

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You would argue that it wasn't (and still is in many respects) an extremely immersive and expansive world? Much closer to reality than a closed combat arena, or a world where you loot everything off of your enemies, pick it up, and use it forever? Much less like a single-player game where the NPC'sfeed youthe same text day in and day out, and much more like a reality in which the people you interact with are REAL (yes, smart-alec, I'm talking about the players, not the alien toons), and have real emotions, real convictions, and real different goals in life? (Or pseudo-life?)

Listen, it was the immersiveness of a Star Wars Galaxy that pulled in the majority of the dedicated players, as far as I'm concerned, and not the complex combat systems. You know as well as I do that the combat game falls short of many other games on the market. What seperates this game from others is the complexity of the community. Factional rivalries, crafting rivalries, supplier rivalries....each competingfor moreinteraction with the other facets of the game, yet working together at other times. Removing gameplay options from several classes and focusing everything on the convenience of the combatant is a huge mistake. It's not "speculation" that this will interfere with the playstyles of many good, solid, competitive crafters, imbalancing the game in the process. It's a fact.

"If you work hard as a dancer, you will still be able to build a huge, loyal customer base who specifically demand your buffing services."

Again, the arguments sound pretty damn familiar.

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I'm playing the devils advocate in the next paragraph.

I agree that it's real life aspects that make this game appealing and I think it should apply to merchants as well. In the real world, I do not have to wander from store to store looking for an item in stock. I can go online and get prices and even make a purchase. I can even have that item shipped to my home.

I HAVE made contact with Tailors. I HAVE been a loyal customer to them. They have simpley decided to move on and try other things or have quit the game all together.

This is simply not for the convenience of the combatant. You don't know how many times I've looked all over for a dress to go to a player event and not finding the one I wanted because of empty vendors. Now what? I'm in between Tailors. I'm dancing at someone's wedding in 2 hours and we are suppose to be in white. I gave the white dress I had away. I did a player search and either no tailors are on or they don't havethe title up. You know, If only I could search all the vendors...

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Isleh wrote:

You don't know how many times I've looked all over for a dress to go to a player event and not finding the one I wanted because of empty vendors. Now what?

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This isn't a flame, I promise. I am actually curious. Are you one of those people who thinks that Wal-Mart is the super evil corporation from hell because they completely dominate quite a few markets? Because your arguments sound a lot like the ones I see from people against them. You're right, smaller businesses will suffer in this system. Not at first, but over time people will get used to a brand name that means good quality and low price. They won't spend their time searching page after page and inspecting every item, they'll scroll through the pages until they find that brand name, and buy that. Wasn't that one of the original complains? No more brand loyalty? This will increase brand loyalty, in my eyes.

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Schardour wrote:
"The Internet" is a way for small businesses to "go global," I understand this. But Internet shopping is not a viable option for many people, because of real-world dangers such as scams, frauds, identity thefts or other insecurities, concerns over the quality of the product or service, as well as physical location and even a natural resistance to change. This leaves room for smaller businesses to fill in certain niches and still remain prosperous.

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You almost make the security issues of the internet sound like a good thing. What we are seeing is the perfect open market. Capitalism at it's finest. You are being given everything you need to make an informed choice about what you are buying. A sales model that loses money will not last over time, so sooner or laterthe people who are selling below cost will have to raise prices. Now, what is it called when someone gives up possible income to get their brand's name out there? Oh yeah, advertising.

Finally, the ability to buy remotely makes sense. No business I have ever heard of has objected to holding an item for you while you travel to them. Especially if you pay for the item (via Credit Card in the real world, or through the transfer of credits electronicly in game) before you leave your house. No one likes wasting their time to travel to a place to get something, only to find it has been sold out already.

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Schardour wrote:

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Else-Whira wrote:
All this will do is open the market and give merchants the ability to reach the population without standing in a star port spamming the loaction of their shop.

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You never had to do that before, if you were a decent merchant. A real merchant could build a brand name by advertising on the forums, advertising on vendors with auctions that had the max bid immediately, giving your items brand-names, placing ads on the forums, operating by word-of-mouth, locating in a well-travelled mall, etc. You go ahead and spam outside a starport and see how many people /addignore Else. Really, that's about the worst possible method available for anybody that isn't a doctor. (And I even ignore those half the time.) Even Merchant Barker Droids were an option! The methods are there, but this destroys that portion of the game for alot of dedicated players.

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Why would these good practices suddenly stop working just because I can see other merchants? If they are truley offering better and a wider varity of products then, more likley, the good merchants will pull more customers in because in addition to these good practices, they now have a larger market to apply them to.

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Schardour wrote:

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Isleh wrote:

You don't know how many times I've looked all over for a dress to go to a player event and not finding the one I wanted because of empty vendors. Now what?

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If it's simply for item location, why does the price need to be included?

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This, however, is a game in which goods can be examined on the bazaar. The goods are there for direct comparison. You could buy the same motherboard online from two different companies, but make a decision based on brand name and quality assurance rather than price. Ingame, everything's the same.

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A composite armor helmet with x stats can be duplicated by another player, and many times for far less money, far less fixed costs, and in much larger quantities. Instead of an economy of scope, in which vendors are encouraged to diversify their product offerings, players will begin to turn to lean manufacturing and economies of scale. Those with large amounts of capital at their fingertips could quickly corner several markets at once, leaving small-time crafters selling only to their closest friends who feel sorry for them.

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No... small-time crafters will have access to the same customers as mass producers. If they produce a better product, get it listed on the search and don't overcharge their products will sell.

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Again, look at the comparison to buffbots. A small number of players can suddenly service an entire server. True, a small crafter could conceivably work his arse off and pull in a decent market share, but it would be much harder and take much more time than it currently does. You'll be forcing those who can't spend large amounts of resources (capital for crafters, time for entertainers) on a long-term scale out of the business, leaving the "power players" at the top of the food chain. (Mass producers and Buffbots)

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How does giving the small crafter access to the larger market share make it harder to get a decent market share? You make the comparison to buffbots but the main argument for the use of buffbots is the fact that entertainers are so hard to find? It's why the Register Location was in such a big issue to get fixed. Because it is a search feature for entartainers. No it dosen't list prices but it would be nice if it did so players who use buffbots could see that there is another entertainer buffing and the price they are charging.

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Come on guys, anybody with an eye for business can see this happening very quickly. If this goes down, I could quickly take control of an entire sector by investing alot of time and money in a single product line. Once you have control of the bazaar and a steady production cycle, there's really no way to depose you.

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Except by offering better service/products/prices

You know what the big corporations like Wal-Mart, Best Buy, etc. HATE the most? An educated customer. One who does reasearch into finding the lowest prices. One who actually uses the coupons and claims the rebates. This costs them money. What they would LOVE is that everyone just go to their closest store and buy the brand names.