Dancer Archive

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akothas wrote:

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Isleh wrote:

Wooohoooo! Now I can go to a dancer buffbot, then a doctor buffbot so I can autodefend near a Meatlump spawn point with a loot macro running! Then, I can set up the buffbot in the cantina and set the doctor up in the starport with a SPAM macro to announce the buffbot in tha cantina.

Or wait! If the doctor at the starport runs a tumble-to-standing macro. My bud, who wants to be a CM so he can pw3n all, can run a healing macro so he can level up faster.

And hey, if my soon to be Master CM bud can run a SPAM macro announcing the location of the vendor of all the loot drops we get from the meatlumps.....

O.o

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Only if you so desire

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Isleh wrote:

• How well the group gets paid will depend on how well you impress the entertainer not on the difficulty of the task.


• Please note, that if you rebuff the pass the Entertainer makes about your tight butt, it may effect your tip for the hunting mission and every subsequent hunting mission.


• Entertainers who find members of the group unattractive are not obligated to pay them when the hunting mission is completed.


• Even if you are nice and polite, the entertainer is still not obligated to pay you for you efforts. In fact....


• Entertainers may be rude and abusive to you and if you don't like it, you have the option of not playing or going elsewhere.


• Pray that the entertainer doesn't just decide to ignore you and walk on by to that AFK guy running autodefend and a loot macro near the meatlump spawn ( it is far more convenient then having to travel out to the lairs, you have no right to complain )


• Obviously, regardless of the time you spend hunting, if you can't find an entertainer to tip then the group will not get paid.

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• How well theimpress theperson will depend on how well you get tips.


• Please note, that if you rebuff the pass theperson makes about your tight butt, it may effect your tipand every subsequenttip.


• Peoplewho findEntertainers unattractive are not obligated to pay them when the buff is completed.


• Even if you are nice and polite, theperson is still not obligated to pay you for you efforts. In fact....


• Peoplemay be rude and abusive to you and if you don't like it, you have the option of not playing or going elsewhere.


• Pray that theperson doesn't just decide to ignore you and walk on by to that AFK guy runninga Botin the Coronet Cantina(it is far more convenient then havingto talk to someone, they cannot complain)


• Obviously, regardless of the time youspend standing there, if you can't finda personto tipyou, youwill not get paid.

There. Now you said it. This seems to be more than a gripe than anything else. I could go on all day about the gripes a warrior has too, "kill stealing" "clone camping""finding buffs" "hoping shop is stocked" and such but I deal with it. There are alot more things you can do but sit in one place all day giving out buffs hoping someone comes up to you and isnt rude, and still be social and give buffs. I can admit there are some things broken about your profession, but all is not lost. Its pretty much a matter of how you work it.

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akothas wrote:

There. Now you said it. This seems to be more than a gripe than anything else. I could go on all day about the gripes a warrior has too, "kill stealing" "clone camping""finding buffs" "hoping shop is stocked" and such but I deal with it. There are alot more things you can do but sit in one place all day giving out buffs hoping someone comes up to you and isnt rude, and still be social and give buffs. I can admit there are some things broken about your profession, but all is not lost. Its pretty much a matter of how you work it.

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In a combat profession is there any otherinfluence you know of that limits your advancement making it take upwards of a month in some cases to master your profession? Is there any influence that makes it nearly impossible for you to make money? No and don't bother telling me that there is because i have probably done more combat professions than you. It's pretty easy to sit there and say oh it's just a minor inconvenience. I for one am tired of seing people i know quit because they have tried for weeks and weeks to get the last boxes of entertainer healing xp filled while watching people walk by full of mind wounds and pour it into a experience sink that does not need it.

I am tired of being aproached by people that stand in front of me and say invite.. invite.. Or speak about me in third person, like can i get invited to so and so's group. I am tired of buffing someone and having them walk away without even thinking of tipping because it's a given to them that mind buffs are supposed to be free. 90% of the time they do not even cover the cost of the acaragm i need to do a 3 minute buff for them. If i do try to set a price before hand i usualy get told off 9 times out of ten by someone for having the audacity to ask for money for something that they can get for free.

You have absolutely no concept of the scope of what this has done to us, yet you would come in here and presume to tell us that it is no big deal. Who the hell are you te tell me what is and isn't making my gameplay miserable? It would be about as stupid as if I were to walk into the galactic civil war forum and tell everyone they are a bunch of crybabies and they should be making the best of things.

Message Edited by Dreamland on 11-12-2004 07:32 PM

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Dreamland wrote:

In a combat profession is there any otherinfluence you know of that limits your advancement making it take upwards of a month in some cases to master your profession? As a matter of fact yes. It took me4 months to master Jedi under the old system. I was 4/4/4/4 guardian before patch 9. I have played a broken profession, with enemies I couldnt kill because they were 100% kinetic. I made the best of it and succeeded anyway. I know your situation is hard, but understand that wasent easy either. Is there any influence that makes it nearly impossible for you to make money? No and don't bother telling me that there is because ihave probably done more combat professions than you (hmm). Even with boffbots, there are still many things you can do as an entertainer to make money. Perhaps not on a grand scale such as a chef or armorsmith, but thats the risk vs reward. You are never going to make alot offstanding there doing a / command alone. It's pretty easy to sit there and say oh it's just a minor inconvenience.I never saidanything was minor inconvenience. Iment big things take big effortI for one am tired of seing people i know quit because they have tried for weeks and weeks to get the last boxes of entertainer healing xp filled while watching people walk by full of mind wounds and pour it into a experience sink that does not need it. Lots of people I know have quit due to the GCW, state of pvp, etc. I am tired of it too.

I am tired of being aproached by people that stand in front of me and say invite.. invite.. I get that all the time in PVP... Or speak about me in third person, like can i get invited to so and so's group. I am tired of buffing someone and having them walk away without even thinking of tipping because it's a given to them that mind buffs are supposed to be free. I run a buffbot, but I still tip entertainers. I dont use him much to heal wounds in town. When I get a buff from an ATK entertainer I tip very well. Its a matter of the person, not the situation. 90% of the time they do not even cover the cost of the acaragm i need to do a 3 minute buff for them.Perhaps if it costed you1k for a whole set of flourishes. If i do try to set a price before hand i usualy get told off 9 times out of ten by someone for having the audacity to ask for money for something that they can get for free. Again, Its a matter of the person, not the situation. I am not like this nor are my friends.

You have absolutely no concept of the scope of what this has done to us, yet you would come in here and presume to tell us that it is no big deal.I did not say it was no big deal. There are many bugs in your profession that need to be fixed,but the bug is not solely other players. Although it cost almost nothing to lvl and nothing for buffs, the entertainment professions have a flawedeconimic strengths.There are things however you can do to compensate, and very well. Who the hell are you te tell me what is and isn't making my gameplay miserable? It would be about as stupid as if I were to walk into the galactic civil war forum and tell everyone they are a bunch of crybabies and they should be making the best of things. I am not telling you how to feel, or calling you a crybaby,I to understand, but you should understand there is more you can do as an entertainer to make yourself more successful than just standing there waiting on others.

Message Edited by Dreamland on 11-12-2004 07:32 PM

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Message Edited by akothas on 11-12-2004 08:11 PM

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Dreamland wrote:

There is only one thing that can solve the problems of thisclass. Coding.The people playing buffbots are of the same breed as the developers. They see the game as mechanics to be used. No amount of psychology will everbe effective in herding the playerbase in the direction you choose. The developers control this game through coding, that is their language. The only way you can stop a behavior in here is to put a brick wall of code in front of it. Reason and logic do not apply. The people behind the problems can not be reasoned with. They will absolutely unequivocaly abuse any in game system to their benefit as long as the option exists. There is no perfect solution when you are trying to create a requirement for a player to do something for the benefit of another player.

As it is right now there is a very strong benefit to seing and entertainer to get a mind buff. If you made unatended macroing imposible today, and the dancers started buffing in cantinas, and fulfiling this demand that the buffbots say we failed to meet. People would still be upset. They still would not want to come to see us to get this service. They do NOT want to have to see doctors to have to get this service either. UnfortunatelyThey HAVE to pay doctors and act in a courteous manner. They do so grudgingly but they do it because if they don't, they do not get their service.

In the end it's a mathematical system, a game. It does not work in an organic way. Without rules a game is no fun, and thats what we have here. The game as it exists is like playing a game of poker with 52 wild cards. Everyone has to have access to it all, all the time. That does not make for a good game. It's destroyed us in the process becuase we were put in the god mode equation. Throwing around free god mode buffs to anybody that has enough skill to type /watch is not condusive to a challenging system. It adds to the problem. That is why it is far better to me to take them away than to start handing them out in an even greater capacity.

Message Edited by Dreamland on 11-11-2004 01:05 AM

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Dreamland dear, knowing the sort of things the developers do, I fear you may be right. They'll probably solve our problems as a coding problem, like they have always done. A year ago they brought about a thread about entertainers and money. This one:

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=Development&message.id=392005

The question was one of player motivation, "how can we get players to tip entertainers?" And they solved the problem brought about in this thread with code. Specifically, the code to buff. And the solution to the problem of player motivation was given a technical solution: a simple act of volition on the part of a dancer to make the passive mechanic resemble an active mechanic. A perfect, objective, and technical solution to a social and motivational problem.

Andapparetly, ourresponse to this perfect, objective, and technical solution a year later is we want to replace this perfect, objective, and technical solution with another perfect, objective, and technical solution.

But haven't we learned thatthe problems we have cannotget any better with a technical solution? It only gives players an incentive to master the technology, and in fact makes the social and motivational problems even worse and more confusing.

Because somewhere along the line, our audience stopped thinking about us in terms of being a selfless bunch who need their support to keep on doing what we do for them. We became a selfish and greedy bunch who took great delight in withholding the things they want. And its not because its actually true. Its just that they perceived it to be true because of the current rules the dancer profession operates under. But it doesn't mean it isn't a real problem just because its a matter of perception. It only means it needs a different sort of solution. And in a profession like a doctor that has some sort of objective criteria to demand a price, matters of perception are not as problematic. But with us, who get paid through the tip system, itcan bedeavastating. Because all we have to market ourselves--rightly or wrongly--is our patron's goodperceptions toward us.

Many of usbelieve its wrong that this class is based on the subjective feelings of the individual audience member.Many of uswant to be able to nameour price, and have them in the position of taking it or leaving it. And I think its an understandable feeling. But how can somebody put a price on a "/" command that costs us nothing to give? And more to the point, how does that make us appear to the player when we keep this thing from him or her? It makes us seem like the bad guys, and makes bots who give away the things that they can give freely seem like the good guys. But its not a matter of truth that we are unavailable and bots are always available, its a matter of perception. But the problems aren't any less real just because they are matters of perception, and they don't go away just because our mechanics get re-tooled.

Buffbot users say that mind buffs from live dancers aren't available. That's simply not true. But the fact that they can't get them in a straightforward, intuitive way from us makes the perception true, even if the facts show otherwise.

And so too do we believe that if we make buffs passive, it will make buffs like blue frog mechanics. And all I have to say to that is if we can get the tension out of the cantina and get the audience in a state of mind to where they can see the good work that we do, then bring on the blue frogging of mind buffs! As long as I am around the blue frog--or even better if I am the blue frog--I see it as a good opportunity for them to see my performance. After all, I'm sure we dancers are a lot better looking than blue frogs. Because frankly I don't consider it my job to figure out how to make mind buffs rare, or why its important in the greater scheme of things to make them complex, difficult, and just active enough to make the inherently passive application of them look like we are actually "doing something tippable."

Whatwe do need is an audience, and its something we are all trying to find. And I can't speak for everyone, but I am pretty confident that if I can have this, Ican find a reason for them to tip me. And frankly, I don't know why weas a groupdon'tshare this. Because I see the beautiful things on Bria every time I perform with you all, and the effort shines through. We are doing the right things in the cantina. Its just that our audience is not in a state of mind to appreciate them.

So I have to admit, Dreamland, you are probably right. Our developers will probably see things as you do and see the problems of the cantina as another technical exercise that requires another technical solution that pays homage to the laws of economics and balance. And just like current buffing rules, I am afraid it will only make things worse. Because these sort of solutions only change the relationship between the characters, and does nothing to influence the players who play the characters. And for most classes, this is not a problem. But for our class that depends so much on influencing the player behind the character, I am afraid it will only produce the opposite effect.

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akothas wrote:

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Dreamland wrote:

In a combat profession is there any otherinfluence you know of that limits your advancement making it take upwards of a month in some cases to master your profession? As a matter of fact yes. It took me4 months to master Jedi under the old system. I was 4/4/4/4 guardian before patch 9. I have played a broken profession, with enemies I couldnt kill because they were 100% kinetic. I made the best of it and succeeded anyway. I know your situation is hard, but understand that wasent easy either. Is there any influence that makes it nearly impossible for you to make money? No and don't bother telling me that there is because ihave probably done more combat professions than you (hmm). Even with boffbots, there are still many things you can do as an entertainer to make money. Perhaps not on a grand scale such as a chef or armorsmith, but thats the risk vs reward. You are never going to make alot offstanding there doing a / command alone. It's pretty easy to sit there and say oh it's just a minor inconvenience.I never saidanything was minor inconvenience. Iment big things take big effortI for one am tired of seing people i know quit because they have tried for weeks and weeks to get the last boxes of entertainer healing xp filled while watching people walk by full of mind wounds and pour it into a experience sink that does not need it. Lots of people I know have quit due to the GCW, state of pvp, etc. I am tired of it too.

I am tired of being aproached by people that stand in front of me and say invite.. invite.. I get that all the time in PVP... Or speak about me in third person, like can i get invited to so and so's group. I am tired of buffing someone and having them walk away without even thinking of tipping because it's a given to them that mind buffs are supposed to be free. I run a buffbot, but I still tip entertainers. I dont use him much to heal wounds in town. When I get a buff from an ATK entertainer I tip very well. Its a matter of the person, not the situation. 90% of the time they do not even cover the cost of the acaragm i need to do a 3 minute buff for them.Perhaps if it costed you1k for a whole set of flourishes. If i do try to set a price before hand i usualy get told off 9 times out of ten by someone for having the audacity to ask for money for something that they can get for free. Again, Its a matter of the person, not the situation. I am not like this nor are my friends.

You have absolutely no concept of the scope of what this has done to us, yet you would come in here and presume to tell us that it is no big deal.I did not say it was no big deal. There are many bugs in your profession that need to be fixed,but the bug is not solely other players. Although it cost almost nothing to lvl and nothing for buffs, the entertainment professions have a flawedeconimic strengths.There are things however you can do to compensate, and very well. Who the hell are you te tell me what is and isn't making my gameplay miserable? It would be about as stupid as if I were to walk into the galactic civil war forum and tell everyone they are a bunch of crybabies and they should be making the best of things. I am not telling you how to feel, or calling you a crybaby,I to understand, but you should understand there is more you can do as an entertainer to make yourself more successful than just standing there waiting on others.

Message Edited by Dreamland on 11-12-2004 07:32 PM

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Message Edited by akothas on 11-12-2004 08:11 PM

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I'm realy thrilled that you don't put your buffbot in a public cantina and that you take the time to tip entertainers. Unfortunately talk is cheap. Lots of people like to say they tip entertainers, but if that's the case why are there so many broke entertainers? And why is there a buffbot sometimes two in every public cantina with any kind of population? Going upon thegood willof the fellow player has failed miserably, because one single buffbot can invalidate every other entertainer on the server by placing itself in a public cantina. It just takes one to mess it up for the entire population. There is more going on than what occurs inside the microcosm that is your personal world as seen by a buffbot owner. Just because everything is peachy from your position does not mean there are not major problems, why are mass amounts of entertainers upset? I guess they all must be complete idiots that have no idea how to make all this money you say can be made as an entertainer.

You come in here telling entertainers that they can't see it from your side over and over and over again until everyone wants to vomit from hearing it already. No matter how much you think you need your buffs having buffbots continue to operate can never be an acceptable solution. If you want to offer solutions other than being a buffbot then by all means. But you can sit there and argue till your blue in the face and it will not make buffbots a positive thing. No entertainer on this board is ever going to stop and say, "Oh ok i see your point you can still be a buffbot because you like having mind buffs 24 hours a day. I'll just be happy with 100 credit missions and everything will be dandy" Your buffbot eradicates my functionality a class without functionality is pointless, if you do not have a reason to exist you die out.

Untill you accept that, you are wasting my time and everyone elses time trying to convince us that you should be able to continue to run a buffbot.

Message Edited by Dreamland on 11-12-2004 09:23 PM

Message Edited by Dreamland on 11-12-2004 09:26 PM

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akothas wrote:

I am not trying to say buffbot Is the most perfect thing. I personally like it and I am not trying to convince any of you that it is a good thing. I am saying even with all the broken, buffboting, no content issues with entertainers that the profession is worth playing if you really want to play it.I still happen to like this game. If you want to be social, even with the buffboting there are people to be social with. If you want to make money, there are ways to make money by just being social.

Im just tired of people saying the ONLY reason they dont succeed is because of buffbots. I used jedi as an example that even broken profession can be successful. If you dont want to see that there are other things besides standing in the cantina doing /flourish commands hoping to god someone tips you, well, what can I say.

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You think that people haven't found other things to do in all this time as an entertainer? Where do you think the cantina crawl series of videos came from? People have been making due in some cases for over a year. Making due is not enough anymore. Putting up with or trying to work around buffbots is not enough Too many people are just fed up, and not many new people are getting into it that have the same devotion to the profession. Honestly how can they, they have no idea what It used to be. There is no wayI can envision thatI would get past the first week of being an entertainer as a new player entering the profession as it exists today.

You can only make it work for so long. Jedi got a solution within months of it becoming obvious there was a problem. They didnt have a year to watch their profession actualy deteriorate. THAT is the issue here, that something was lost, it was taken away by selfishness and by that selfishness being enabled by the development team.

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Dreamland wrote:

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akothas wrote:

I am not trying to say buffbot Is the most perfect thing. I personally like it and I am not trying to convince any of you that it is a good thing. I am saying even with all the broken, buffboting, no content issues with entertainers that the profession is worth playing if you really want to play it.I still happen to like this game. If you want to be social, even with the buffboting there are people to be social with. If you want to make money, there are ways to make money by just being social.

Im just tired of people saying the ONLY reason they dont succeed is because of buffbots. I used jedi as an example that even broken profession can be successful. If you dont want to see that there are other things besides standing in the cantina doing /flourish commands hoping to god someone tips you, well, what can I say.

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You think that people haven't found other things to do in all this time as an entertainer? Where do you think the cantina crawl series of videos came from? People have been making due in some cases for over a year. Making due is not enough anymore. Putting up with or trying to work around buffbots is not enough Too many people are just fed up, and not many new people are getting into it that have the same devotion to the profession. Honestly how can they, they have no idea what It used to be. There is no wayI can envision thatI would get past the first week of being an entertainer as a new player entering the profession as it exists today.

You can only make it work for so long. Jedi got a solution within months of it becoming obvious there was a problem. They didnt have a year to watch their profession actualy deteriorate. THAT is the issue here, that something was lost, it was taken away by selfishness and by that selfishness being enabled by the development team.

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And finally, in regards to "Making Due".As well as playing a Master Dancer, I am also a Master Smuggler. You can take "Making Due"... and toss it out a window.

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PoetDancer wrote:

And so too do we believe that if we make buffs passive, it will make buffs like blue frog mechanics. And all I have to say to that is if we can get the tension out of the cantina and get the audience in a state of mind to where they can see the good work that we do, then bring on the blue frogging of mind buffs! As long as I am around the blue frog--or even better if I am the blue frog--I see it as a good opportunity for them to see my performance. After all, I'm sure we dancers are a lot better looking than blue frogs. Because frankly I don't consider it my job to figure out how to make mind buffs rare, or why its important in the greater scheme of things to make them complex, difficult, and just active enough to make the inherently passive application of them look like we are actually "doing something tippable."

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But don't you see Sirii.. We are around the blue frog now. A buffbot is exactly like a blue frog. I't isn't getting anyone to notice your performance, if it was we wouldn't have a problem.

You take away the controls and make buffs leechable, ok, now we are just realy back to sqaure one. Only we give off overpowering stat boosts for free. Maybe one day after the CU buffs will not be overpowering, and just be the mild benefit they always should have been. Maybe that day it wouldn't be a big deal to make buffs passive. I realy can't see a developer ever agreeing with your idea with buffs being as powerful as they are now either. If anything the development direction i am noticing is to make things more moderate, not to crank it up and put it off the scale. Take solo group payouts being chopped down to size.

Keep in mind also that you are a very unique individual in your playstyle, andI have seen your playstyle. It is very different from mine and from the majority of entertainers i know. I have heard you say in the past that you have no problem getting tips while performing next to a buffbot. Well, I do. If that means i'm not as good a dancer as you then so be it. That does not change the fact that I am a dancer and i love being one. Maybe you have the stomach to ignore the buffbot and put on your performance next to it, and thats great. I just don't, im sorry.They make me into a worse person when i am around them.

Taking the buff and making it passive just makes every AFK entertainer into an easy to use buffbot. The herd of afks dancing in the cantina have gotten a bit of a reprieve with the greater evil of buffbots taking up the attention. They are still there though.Spamming and being an anoyance, and ruining my mood just as surely as a buffbot does. So you think turning every one of them into an easy use buffbot is going to help? I can't agree to that.

Message Edited by Dreamland on 11-13-2004 09:57 AM