Dancer Archive
Thread: Suggestion: Entertainer /dia equivalent
Ikewe
Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:20 am
#27
I find it hard to believe players are going to expect us to tell them when they are done healing simply because we have a /diag. Doctors and medics are not asked "have you healed me yet?" So why would giving us the ability to look at somone and see they are healed be any different from when a medic does it? I have the ability to do all sorts of things as a dancer that patrons never ask for. Joe Smuggler never comes in a says "Hey you haven't done the colored lights effect tonight. I want to see it." The mindbuff is different because unlike when the doctor applies the buff, the patron doesn't know if they have recieved our buff unless we tell them. They are at the mercy of the system just as we are.
My problem is that there are times I am the one in a hurry. I've gotten a tell from Joe PvP who just took 1000 mind wounds from a poison hit. I'm in the middle of another event but because I see myself as a healer I choose to go to Joe PvP to heal his mind wounds and get him back on his feet again. Joe PvP is busy with tells and arrangements to get his revenge and so isn't monitoring whether he is healed or not. I'm in a hurry because I have others waiting on me. So I use my new /diag command, see that Joe PvP is healed and I wish him well and go on my way. I do the same thing if I am healing health or action pool wounds. I don't have to keep applying meds wondering if Joe is healed and I don't have to wait for Joe to say "great! you've healed me right up. thanks"
I can appreciate the entertainer/performer who is able toheal Joe Combat or Joe Pilotwithout watching the clock. Both the entertainer and Joe have a relaxing time and no one cares whether it took 3 minutes or 30 minutes. More often than not that's the situation for me as well. But with my participation in more and more timed events (the spawning of the village in Phase 4 or a base defense for example), there are times I would really like to know that yes I can stop dancing and leave. As it stands now I either have to stop dancing to use my /diag tool and then have the pesky "you must wait..." if Joe wasn't done healing - which causes more of a delay for me - or I have to rely on Joe staying at his computer and not being involved in 14 other conversations.
Now perhaps I shouldn't be in a hurry. I have after all chosen to be an entertainer who heals through performance and it's not my place to be rushing off. If that's the argument I'll accept that and justkeep telling those who are calling for my rifle skills to keep their pants on because I am performing. It's not a choice I like making but then sometimes that's the way things go.
added* my husband reminded me that there have been times I needed to step away from my computer but didn't know if I had finished healing the person there or not so had to wait.. and wait.. and wait until they finally responded to my tell and I could stop dancing and then make a quick run to the bathroom. Now I guess I could have chosen to just stop and run to the toilet but for whatever reason I always hate making the player wait for me. maybe it's time for me to just get over that.
Ikewe, Master Dancer Shadowfire
Message Edited by Ikewe on 11-19-2004 08:33 AM
PoetDancer
Fri Nov 19, 2004 10:50 am
#28
I don't understand exactly how this command better solves our probems when we seem rushed. If we need to go, why not just go? If the patron needs us, it is a rather simple process for he or she to put up the ctrl-c screen and determine if they need more BF healing. And even if we decide to leave, the patron has the option to /watch the dancer right next to us.
Now I have never personally asked a doctor "how much longer." And the reason I don't is because there are several cues I can use to determine how much longer it will take. I can see the mind bar. I can see the indications flash across my screen when they heal my wounds. I also have the ctrl-c screen. So to say that medic healing operates by the same standard as BF healing is hardly accurate. Its a different process that operates by different standards.
And if we want to change the responsibilities of this class to include managing the audience's time, then be prepared to work harder for tips, be prepared to have less time in which to work for it, and be prepared to give the players yet another incentive to go AFK while we are performing, and expect us to takeresponsibility of monitoring what they should be monitoring for themselves. Because an addedresponsibility only adds to the things we have to do in order to satisfy an audience. So ifwe want to get about twenty /tells askingus "how much BF do I have" thatwe have to respond to to satisfy them, then by all means give us the ability to discover a patron's BF while skill animating. And ifwe want to look like a bad performer and forego any chance of a tip becausewe tell the patron, "I'm too busy, check your own BF level," then by all means make one of the responsibilities of this class checking the BF level of the patrons. Ifwe want to be seen as irresponsible and a bad performerfor keeping a patron one second longer than he or she has to be there, then give the patrons a reason to take us to task because we don't use the tools "the way we should."
And then don't complain if this happens andwe come back here and say, "I can't get tipped and the audience are acting like jerks." Becauseby changing the functions of the class, we change the way the audience expects this class to operate. And it may in fact be a completely new set of problems we will have to somehow be responsible for.
Message Edited by PoetDancer on 11-19-2004 12:20 PM
Ikewe
Sat Nov 20, 2004 1:21 am
#29
Ah, I think I see the miscommunication here Sirii. I am often the only dancer so Joe doesn't have the option to simply watch the dancer next to me if I choose to leave because I am in a rush. If it were that simple I would just leave when I need to. I have done it many times before with just a quick "I'll leave you in the skilled hands of the beautiful and talented.... "
I know it's a simple procedure for the player being healed to take control and monitor their stats and then be on their way. But lately, and perhaps it won't be as common once this phase of the Village is over, I am often the sole dancer in the outpost. We have a 30 minute window before the next spawnwhen I need to be out of my dancing shoes and into my armored boots with Rifle in hand. I certainly understand and agree with your point that any change to what we can do has the potential to change what we are expected to do but I just can't agree that by giving us the ability to know when someone's BF is healed they are going to expect us to all tell them and will consider us "lesser performers" if we do not. I could be wrong and if the experiences thus far of the community lead the majority to believe that's the case then I'll gladly eat the "you must wait..." message and just stop dancing periodically to check their stats.
I'll just point out the person watching us has a few indications of their own that they are being healed by us similar to those you use for medic. They can see their own black plague being removed from their mind bar, they can see our action bar going down - assuming we are not buffed which is the same for doctors using enhanced foods, and they can use the character sheet. they may not see a "flash of light" from our healing but in the days before that animaltion was added we still did nothear "am I healed yet doc?" By adding a /diag we aren't, in my opinion actually changing the function of the class. We are simply giving *us* more control. But I'm willing to admit that I could be completely wrong and putting too much faith into the patron of the future.
Perhaps it's just come to a point where the fact that I have another professionmeans I occassionally will have to make tougher choices about when I perform and for how long. It would be nice if I had a tool that allowed me to manage my own time more easily but I would not want to see other's like yourself punished simply for my own convenience.
Ikewe, Master Dancer Shadowfire
Valarena
Sat Nov 20, 2004 6:41 am
#30
Let's not use theyellow fonts, no need to hate eachothers!!!! *group hugs*
Ikewe
Sat Nov 20, 2004 7:24 am
#31
Oops. Is that what the yellow font is supposed to mean? I've been using it when I quote someone and then put my reply in the standard white. DOH! I need a secret decoder ring for all this 
Ikewe
Chessack
Sun Nov 21, 2004 9:35 am
#33
I think there are two different debates going on in this thread. The more recent posts are about "do we absolutely NEED this to perform our tasks?" Obviously the answer is no, since the galaxy is not full of people with zillions of BF, so we must have been able to heal since launch pretty darn well. I agree with PoetD in the abstact that we do not absolutely NEED this skill.
However, whether we need it or not, I believe that from an "in character" perspective, this skill is something a dancer or musician (or any entertainer) should have. Not having it is the functional equivalent of not letting a pistoleer see how good the gun he is about to buy is ahead of time. Oh sure he doesn't "need" that because he can find out by trial and error shooting it at different targets, but "in character" a really good, experienced pistoleer would be able to pick up a gun, hold it, get the "feel" of it, and shoot it at a jawa beer bottle, and just that fast be able to tell whether it's "his kind of gun." So from where I sit this is not about what a dancer needs but about what a dancer should be able to do. A dancer who has danced for thousands of battle-weary patrons all over the galaxy most definitely should be able to tell who is battle weary and just how battle weary they are.
As for the "doom and gloom" predictions of customers becoming nasty or abusive or bothering us more just because we can tell whether they have BF or not, here is a news flash for you: Most of my customers, unless they have more than briefly dabbled in entertainment, have no idea that I can't tell whether they have BF or how much. They also have no idea that I am as in the dark as they are about whether the buff has "stuck" yet (aside from the fact that I have my macro timed to ensure it's stuck and can see whether the macro is still running or not). The other players I've met have assumed that such tools are available to me and shocked when I say "I don't know" or "I have no way of telling" to such things. So it is not necessarily a correct assumption to think that all players "know" we can't tell how much BF they have and act accordingly. Most of them never think twice about whether we can or can't, and if they do I bet at least half of them already think we CAN do this. Not one of them has yet bugged me about their BF, however.
C
However, whether we need it or not, I believe that from an "in character" perspective, this skill is something a dancer or musician (or any entertainer) should have. Not having it is the functional equivalent of not letting a pistoleer see how good the gun he is about to buy is ahead of time. Oh sure he doesn't "need" that because he can find out by trial and error shooting it at different targets, but "in character" a really good, experienced pistoleer would be able to pick up a gun, hold it, get the "feel" of it, and shoot it at a jawa beer bottle, and just that fast be able to tell whether it's "his kind of gun." So from where I sit this is not about what a dancer needs but about what a dancer should be able to do. A dancer who has danced for thousands of battle-weary patrons all over the galaxy most definitely should be able to tell who is battle weary and just how battle weary they are.
As for the "doom and gloom" predictions of customers becoming nasty or abusive or bothering us more just because we can tell whether they have BF or not, here is a news flash for you: Most of my customers, unless they have more than briefly dabbled in entertainment, have no idea that I can't tell whether they have BF or how much. They also have no idea that I am as in the dark as they are about whether the buff has "stuck" yet (aside from the fact that I have my macro timed to ensure it's stuck and can see whether the macro is still running or not). The other players I've met have assumed that such tools are available to me and shocked when I say "I don't know" or "I have no way of telling" to such things. So it is not necessarily a correct assumption to think that all players "know" we can't tell how much BF they have and act accordingly. Most of them never think twice about whether we can or can't, and if they do I bet at least half of them already think we CAN do this. Not one of them has yet bugged me about their BF, however.
C
Esharra
Sun Nov 21, 2004 10:10 am
#34
/holds her head and rocks back in forth, mumbling something about font color etiquette.
PoetDancer
Sun Nov 21, 2004 11:06 am
#35
We got an active authorization in terms of /setperform and /invite. But did these things actually give patrons more reasons to tip us? Or did they give patrons more of a reason to not tip us if we didn't use them in the manner they wanted?
From my experience, it was the latter. The active tools to give a buff never increased the"tipability" of the normal things we did. It only increased the standard at which we qualify for a tip. It only made the work of this class have more to do with whether we were able to type in /setperform or /invite, and that, quite frankly, is a nerf to anyone who thinks the class should be rewarded on the basis of more interesting things than simply typing in /setperform and /invite.
How does this command make us more "tippable?" It doesn't. But I can think of so many ways the existence of this command will make us less tippable. Because nowadays if I am so darn amusing I keep the patron a little (or a lot) past the required time he needs to tend to the things he goes to the cantina to receive, it doesn't imply I am a bad player. In fact, the opposite is true. I become a good player for creating something so amusing it outweighs the need to put up the ctrl-c screen. How can I be if I cannot know?
But if I have a command like /diagnose, and I keep a patron a little (or a lot) past the required time he needs to tend to his fatiuge, he can accuse me of not being "mindful" of his time, and I get called a "bad performer"for no other reasons other thanI am simply too focused on amusing for his own good. By doing the amusing things that I do, rather than monitor the BF level of the patrons,I canactually be accused of doing the patron a crime of neglect for not playing this class the way I ethically "should." Its the difference between these two examples:
Without a /diagnose:
Patron: "Dammit! I spent 30 minutes here. Why didn't you say something?"
Performer: "Frankly, I really don't know how long you needed to stay. You have a ctrl-c screen though."
Patron: "Oh well. Can't say it was a waste of time at least." /tipPerformer 35000 bank.
With a /diagnose:
Patron: "Dammit! I spent 30 minutes here. Why didn't you say something?"
Performer: "Because Iwas so engrossed in what you were saying, I forgot to check my tool."
Patron: "Well that's just swell you noob! I'm not here so you can waste my time." /addignore Performer.
See the difference? In the first example, you can't blame the performer for being a good performer. In the second example, being a good performer can become a crime.
So I beg of you. Keep your hands out of my purse. Don't create a situation where our jobs become any more complicated, and don't create more situations to give patrons excuses not to tip us.
....And noticeI didn't use yellow.
Message Edited by PoetDancer on 11-21-2004 12:11 PM
Valarena
Sun Nov 21, 2004 11:15 am
#36
OMG ORANGE AND GREEN!!!!
Cool combo *grins*
Good point though... I'll have to think of it... *thinks*
Xyrdre
Mon Nov 22, 2004 12:38 am
#37
In all fairness though, Sirii, that really sounds to me like two different patrons rather than the same person in two different scenarios.
In my personal experiences, the kind of person who would see that extra conversational time as not being wasted wouldn't flip into a frenzy and /addignore... if someone can appreciate a fun conversation, theyusually do so regardless of who's "job" it was to monitor healing times. And the kind of person that would get all mad and /addignore would be less likely to tip 35k and say "oh, well, time wasn't wasted" if it wasn't our "job" to monitor,than to justshout an expletive and run off.
I'm not commenting on either side of whether a BF /diagnose would be for better or for worse, but I don't see this example asa realistic depiction of thedifferent typesof players that I've run into.
PoetDancer
Mon Nov 22, 2004 8:46 am
#38
Then apparently I see what the big problem is with many who play this class. You are under the impression that there are two sorts of patrons: one who can appreciate a conversation, and one who cannot. I disagree. Everyone from the biggest 1337, to the lowliest n00b can enjoy a good conversation. And the difference is not in terms of the player, but in the expectation they have before they even walk in the door.
We have seen so many times players come in here and say "I don't care about your damn prattle. I want to get my buffs and go." Well that doesn't mean he doesn't want to experience something amusing. It only means he wants his buffs. But what the heck is he going to do for 3.5 minutes while he's getting his buff? Sit and letus doour work. So while I'm doing my work, what else does he really have to do other than to see my show? And as long as I can do my show and not have it interfere with what he goes to the cantina to get, and he finds what I have to say or do amusing and good, then that's when I get tipped. But make no mistake. He doesn't go there to enjoy a good conversation. He goes to get in and out of the cantina with a buff. But while getting that, he's just as amicable as everyone else.
Unless of course he goes AFK, and that is the main reason many of you want this tool. But then again, when was it ever our responsibility to service the unattended? Are we so quick to condem unattended providers, and yet willing to embrace and make being an unattended audience member just that much more of an option to our customers? I say its the patron's responsibility to heal his own BF off of us with his /watch. I have one year's precedent to believe that this is how it was meant to be. We do not heal. We are a healing item for another to use.
But if what I do in terms of my show either has the perception or the reality of interfering with the things he goes to the cantina to get, that very same performance becomes a reason to not tip me, and think what I do is useless.
I get blamed enough for things I don't have control over, or things I neglect to do for my patrons. I don't want something else to get blamed for. Because it doesn't even have to be a reasonable thing to blame me for. The mere fact that they can blame me for something will make me blamed for something. Don't believe me? Just look how many on the servers blame us live entertainers for the lack of buffs, or the lack of getting out of the cantina with the things they need. And its not because we actually are to blame.
Ikewe
Mon Nov 22, 2004 9:09 am
#39
Clearly we are not going to agree on this. I want a tool that lets me know I can leave when I have chosen tointerrupt my plans in order to heal someone. I currently have novice medic so I have that tool. I just have to stop dancing to use it and then there's a delay before I can begin healing again if the person still has BF. There are many possible solutions here: make the /diag work while skill animating, allow dancers and musicians the ability to trade in excess healing experience, change our healing interface completely (not a preference but still an option), provide an entertainer specific /diag command that works while we are skill animating.... I'm sure there are probably a million more. The point of contention is that Sirii (and I am certain she is not the only one) fears that by addingany functionality to the entertainer then all patrons will expect all entertainers to use that functionality and won't tip if the entertainer doesn't. I think that's not the case but I'm not going to convince Sirii and she's not going to convince me. Fortunately the discussion is now moot. I can create my own personal assistant bot and have my assistant use the novice medic /diag tool while I continue to dance. What a great assistant! On days when my personal assistant is performing some other task, I'll just continue to use my /diag command for those patrons who do go afk when I'm in a hurry.
Ikewe, Master Dancer Shadowfire