CUEmu - Thread Posts

Drygo

Thu Nov 18, 2004 12:09 pm

I'm sorry to be completely off topic here...but, really, who cares if we don't /target or /heal? It's all a question of semantics. Fact is, we take certain actions which heal people, and we can take certain actions which prevent us from healing people. Yes, the person being healed has to /watch. But, they aren't going to get healed by standing in the same room aswe are unless we actively allow it by dancing and not putting them on /denyservice.

The point is, we heal. People get healed because of us and the things that we do. It would aid us in several circumstances if we were able to tell when we are done healing or how much needs to be healed. Whether or not we /target or /heal is completely irrelevant to this fact.

Message Edited by Drygo on 11-18-2004 11:10 AM

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Drygo

Thu Nov 18, 2004 12:43 pm

#15

But...but, didn't you read my example? Sometime I really would love to know if I'm done healing or not so I can go about my merry way. I mean, really, the doc heals and knows when to stop. I don't know when to stop. That means, on many an occasion...because this situation has happened to me *many* times...I have to make a choice...do I just leave and risk not healing someone completely or do I stay and risk wasting my time when someone has already been completelyhealed? So, you see, in a situation like this, I *do* need to know how much healing, if any, is left if I want to put forthmy best effort possible to heal someone and not waste time. Sure, the patronknows this themselves...but, then so does thepatient of a doctor. The patient's doctor could conceivably run off at any time. But,if the patient happens to go afk, the doctor knows right then and there when he needs to stop wasting his time trying to heal someone. We don't know that, and it would be really nice if we did.

(This, of course, applies to an entertainer who is capped out on healing experience, mostly. If they're not then they can obviously tell.)

PS. It's sort of the same reason I'd like to know who I'm healing or who's watching me. For example, if I'm in a group and I know people are getting healed. Maybe I'm at a point where I'm not capped out on EH exp. So, I know someone somewhere is being healed by someone in the group. But, you see...I gotta go, I have to meet someone somewhere or something. I'd like to know if anyone is specifically getting healed by me at the moment so I can stay till they're done, so I can know how much longer they need to go with a /dia command, or I can, if I have to, personally apologize that I have to run off.

Message Edited by Drygo on 11-18-2004 12:02 PM

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Goldshadow

Thu Nov 18, 2004 2:42 pm

#16

Maybe I can add a spin to this that will make sense.

Doctors and Medics can /diagnose people because they have trainings that teach them to read the physical signs of injury (blood gushing from one's chest might indicate some issues with Health, gasping for breath might indicate an issue with Stamina). This training also lets them quantify the extent of those injuries.

As an Entertainer, I have training that teaches me to empathize with people. I can tell from thier body language what kind of mental condition they are in (staring off into space might indicate an issue with Focus, jitters and nervousnes might indicate Battle Fatigue). I can also quantify the extent of that mood due to that training. Think about the last time you were having a really bad day and were all pi$$ed off. I'd be willing to bet that the people around you could tell just by looking at your face. That's how we can /diagnose mental health.

We both are just reading the small signs that people give off without realizing it.

--------------
Roho Traideb
Beloved of Kirahfaye
Pre-NGE: Master Entertainer/Musician, and Novice Image Designer/Dancer
Emeritus Entertainer Dev Pro Tempore

- I support ATK Players and Playstyle -

Chessack

Thu Nov 18, 2004 3:56 pm

#17

Reachwind wrote:
All we need to know in the current system is how much action we have left to continue to entertain.

That's simply not true.

Someone with HUGE BF needs my Master Dancer skills or he will be there forever. Someone with 10 BF can get by on my Master Entertainer music skills, which will still heal him in under a minute. When I am alone (as a performer), because I don't like to dance in silence, I generally play the Mandi (sometimes others but it is my favorite instrument). If someone is only a little wounded this doesn't matter. But if someone walks in with 475 BF, and I don't realize it (sometimes people have no visible wounds but lots of BF), then he will be there for a long, long, LONG time while my mandi-strumming slowly heals him... I could've healed the same thing lightning-quick by dancing. Now of course, you can discuss this with the player and I often do, but it would be a lot easier for me if they provided me an interface to do this myself. Of course, my character has novice medic so I can /diag, but I have to STOP playing to do that (which is annoying). And the basic concept is that I shouldn't HAVE to have novice medic to do this.

I'd think that a professional dancer and entertainer should be savvy enough to be able to see at a glance if her patron is very battle-weary or not, and be able to adjust her performance accordingly. See my Bob Hope/USO example above.

C

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Dejah Thoris
Dancer, Musician, Image Designer
Kor Spera, Corellia, Naritus

Reachwind

Thu Nov 18, 2004 4:54 pm

#18

"play it again Sam"

"Encore!"

Yes, it is up to the audience to control when or if they are done seeing you perform. If you want to be a doctor, take up enough medic to let you /dia someone. If you want to play as an entertainer though you need to understand that you are putting on a show not healing an injured person. Your responsibility as an entertainer is to create a dance or to play a song. The healing comes from being an attentive audience member (/listen or /watch). You do not control your healing.

Drygo

Thu Nov 18, 2004 5:42 pm

#19

Reachwind wrote:
"play it again Sam"

"Encore!"

Yes, it is up to the audience to control when or if they are done seeing you perform. If you want to be a doctor, take up enough medic to let you /dia someone. If you want to play as an entertainer though you need to understand that you are putting on a show not healing an injured person. Your responsibility as an entertainer is to create a dance or to play a song. The healing comes from being an attentive audience member (/listen or /watch). You do not control your healing.

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree here. By your definition we don't heal because an audience member has to /listen or /watch. By my definition we do heal because we...um, heal. And, I also feel like I very much control who gets healed and who doesn't. If I don't want someone to get healed by me, then they won't.

I guess for me, though...what I don't understand, whether we heal or we don't, why someone would be against giving us this added tool to aid in our mechanical game functions. It certainly isn't hurting anybody if we have it. It doesn't hurt us, it doesn't hurt the person watching or listening to us. I can only think of benefits to us having this particular ability. It doesn't take away the "job" of another class because we heal (or don't) completely different things than a doctor has. So, I'm just wondering what would be a "negative" to us having this ability? And, if there is none, then why would you be so against this? The only reason I can come up with is that it doesn't fit into your particular idea of what an entertainer is. And, I just don't think that's a valid reason to be against an idea that fits into the role of what many others consider to be part of entertaining, especially when there are no potential drawbacks that I can think of.

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PoetDancer

Thu Nov 18, 2004 5:49 pm

#20

A watched ctrl-c screen never goes down fast enough, and it really doesn't matter if the performer is a master in their bio-enhanced BF healing clothes, or the novice in her red shoes. In a sense, we need to be able to manipulate time itself. Not the actual time, the perception of time.

What is a long time to wait? Time that goes by without anything amusing going on around. What is quick? Time that is packed with amusing things to see and respond to. I can't remember how many times Iput ona show forpatrons who come in the door with 1000 BF. I'd nearly exhaust myself, but in the end, it was worth it.

Because when I finally got to the point where I could take no more, I told him, "aren't you feeling rested yet dear?" At which point he'd put up his ctrl-c screen and said, "WOW! That was quick!" /tip sirii 35000 bank. And he left with a /bow and a /smile.

....a full 45 minutes after he first walked in the door, that is.

Madame Sirii Ajaan
August 2003-September 15, 2005
"There is a difference between being /watched and being WATCHED."

Reachwind

Thu Nov 18, 2004 6:07 pm

#21

Ok Drygo I'll turn that question back on you then;

Why if you want the ability of a medic to /diagnose do you not take enough medic to use the /diag command?

You ask why I am against this idea... Very simple really, it's not an entertainer skill. I would love to have more entertainer things to do, a more interactive dance system, something tangible we could sell as a commodity (think t-shirts, posters, recordings etc.. The kinds of things entertainers IRL sell) but I don't agree that we need to have skills that medics do with knowing the extent of the medical needs of our audience. It is simply not something an entertainer should be concerned with.

PoetDancer

Thu Nov 18, 2004 6:12 pm

#22

Be that as it may Drygo, I do think there is a drawback to this. Because then it will get every single goon out there the idea that we are somehow responsible for healing them. And since we will have the ability to /diagnose BF healing, they'll keep on pestering us just like they pester us about buffs, saying "how much longer?"

What am I? A short order waitress? Things like this give players the perception that we are responsible forpushing them out the door. I'd ratherwe structure these professions less in terms ofpushing patrons out as quickly as possible, and more in terms of trying to keep patrons in there and interested. And how do we do that? Give them a reason to stay beyond their simple mechanicalneeds. Right now, all I know is that there is dead time that is availablefor me to fill. The fact that I don't know how much time gives me an incentive to amuse for as long and as best as I can. But if I somehow have the knowledge of when the patron is actually healed, its almost like I am doing him a disservice by keeping him there long after he needs it. And that nerfs me in ways I cannot even comprehend until the day that a patron chastises me for not keeping track of his time for him.

If we want to give more tools to greater confirm to the playerbase that we are simple mechanics dispensers where efficiency is paramount, then let's put in a /diagnose. And I'll agree to it on one condition.

If its true that our decision to skill animate makes us tacitly agree to be a healer, then I would argue that it also makes us tacitly agree to be a buffer. So then why do we still need /setperform and /invite to initiate a buff, since we are assumed to take an active role in mechanics dispensing by skill animating? If we can drop these gates on buffing, I'll pretty much go along with any diagnostic tool.

Message Edited by PoetDancer on 11-18-2004 07:28 PM

Madame Sirii Ajaan
August 2003-September 15, 2005
"There is a difference between being /watched and being WATCHED."

Drygo

Thu Nov 18, 2004 8:23 pm

#23

Reachwind wrote:
Ok Drygo I'll turn that question back on you then;

Why if you want the ability of a medic to /diagnose do you not take enough medic to use the /diag command?

You ask why I am against this idea... Very simple really, it's not an entertainer skill. I would love to have more entertainer things to do, a more interactive dance system, something tangible we could sell as a commodity (think t-shirts, posters, recordings etc.. The kinds of things entertainers IRL sell) but I don't agree that we need to have skills that medics do with knowing the extent of the medical needs of our audience. It is simply not something an entertainer should be concerned with.

Well, I'm not sure what to say. Of course, I would agree with you that I'd like to see those entertainer things that you mentioned. But, I still don't see why we can't have an entertainer equivalent of /diagnose. I think it's a simple fact of having two different ideas of what this profession is. Whether or not you agree, and whether or not the devs themselves agree, we are healers, in my mind. The entertainers of SWG, at present, heal. They do. And, it doesn't make any sense to me why, within the realm of our healing, this can't be or shouldn't be a natural addition to our skillset. You may not feel that an entertainer should be concerned with this, which is fine. I just disagree, I guess.

It may come to pass that during our revamp we will be stripped away completely of our healing and buffing abilities, hopefully given something else that gaurantees income and interdependency. I'm all fine with that.

But, the thing is, we're all never gonna agree on what we should be. I mean, you mentioned recordings. There are a lot of people on here who hate the idea of recordings. It's all a matter of what you view and want out of this profession, I suppose. I just don't "get" trying to define ourselves into one little pocket or idea of what we're supposed to be. I see it all the time on these boards, and it kind of annoys me. But, I'm not trying to "fight" with you here. It's just that I'd rather take the view of adding options...lots of them...so that you can be the type of entertainer you want to be, I can be the entertainer I want to be, and our fellow entertainers can be the type of entertainers that they want to be.

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Drygo

Thu Nov 18, 2004 8:40 pm

#24

PoetDancer wrote:

Be that as it may Drygo, I do think there is a drawback to this. Because then it will get every single goon out there the idea that we are somehow responsible for healing them. And since we will have the ability to /diagnose BF healing, they'll keep on pestering us just like they pester us about buffs, saying "how much longer?"

What am I? A short order waitress? Things like this give players the perception that we are responsible forpushing them out the door. I'd ratherwe structure these professions less in terms ofpushing patrons out as quickly as possible, and more in terms of trying to keep patrons in there and interested. And how do we do that? Give them a reason to stay beyond their simple mechanicalneeds. Right now, all I know is that there is dead time that is availablefor me to fill. The fact that I don't know how much time gives me an incentive to amuse for as long and as best as I can. But if I somehow have the knowledge of when the patron is actually healed, its almost like I am doing him a disservice by keeping him there long after he needs it. And that nerfs me in ways I cannot even comprehend until the day that a patron chastises me for not keeping track of his time for him.

If we want to give more tools to greater confirm to the playerbase that we are simple mechanics dispensers where efficiency is paramount, then let's put in a /diagnose. And I'll agree to it on one condition.

If its true that our decision to skill animate makes us tacitly agree to be a healer, then I would argue that it also makes us tacitly agree to be a buffer. So then why do we still need /setperform and /invite to initiate a buff, since we are assumed to take an active role in mechanics dispensing by skill animating? If we can drop these gates on buffing, I'll pretty much go along with any diagnostic tool.

Message Edited by PoetDancer on 11-18-2004 07:28 PM

See...again, I'll repeat in another fashion what I said to Reachwind. It's very clear, Sirii, that you have a very strong idea of what it means to be an entertainer. You're very big on amusing the customer. And, that's great. But, within a great deal of your posts I often feel as if you bring what is your idea of being an entertainer, and look at it from that point of view only. And, please, don't take that as a flame, because I don't intend it to be. I actually have a lot of respect for your point of view and what you do.

I mean, I know that you would like to get rid of anything that doesn't involve the actual amusing and performance aspect. Not that you want to get rid of buffs, per se. But, you don't want to have to do anything besides actual dance commands. ie, your fine with typing /flourish 1, but you're not fine with typing /setperform because it takes away from you being able to type /flourish 1 and chat with the customers. (Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about this.) So, you would be perfectly happy if all of our heals and buffs just happened automatically because it would free you up to do what you do best, and I can respect that.

But, I just think people on these boards need to always keep in mind that the entertainer community is a very diverse one. Our professions are really some of the most diverse in game mechanics. A lot of people say entertaining is boring. I don't get that. I can chat, or I can amuse, or I can truly perform by myself or with a group, I can heal, I can buff, I have so many options. I like having those options. I like enhancements to my performing. But, I also like enhancements to my healing and my buffing. I'm not really a chatter, or a flirter, or an amuser. I'm really more into the mechanics of things, whether that be the mechanics of healing, or the mechanics of putting on a complex show. When I say that I'd like a /diagnose, I'm saying I would love to have this as an enhancement to my healing abilities. But, I think that others would rather us not have /diagnose simply because it doesn't fit into their idea of entertainer. But, the thing is, should you be someone who doesn't want to use /diagnose, then by all means don't. Personally, I always thought /denyservice was a huge waste of time and development effort. I never wanted that. But, ya know, if some people want that to add to their tools, then by all means, they should have it. If there's something that helps you, Sirii, to amuse better, to do the things that you like most as a dancer, I would more than likely get right behind you and lobby for it because I see that as an extra option to add to our repertoire. Whether or not I would use it, and whether or not I view it as my idea of an entertainer, is beside the point. Because if you want me to be perfectly honest here...I do not consider chatting with the customers to be what it means to be an entertainer. I don't think entertainers in real life do that sort of thing, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me...it's not what I want to do as an entertainer. If I chat or make jokes, it's simply because I want to do so, with a fellow player, and has absolutely nothing to do with what I feel makes an entertainer.

However, like I said, if there were tools that people were lobbying for to enhance the "amusement" portion for those who want to "amuse" as an entertainer, then I most certainly would not come on here, and say "no, that's not what I think an entertainer should be."

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PoetDancer

Thu Nov 18, 2004 10:55 pm

#25

This is the thing I do not understand though, Drygo. How are you and I any different? We aren't. All we do is work within the context of this profession as it stands. In this sense too, even buffbots work within the context of this profession as it stands. There are certain facts about these professions that promote certain behaviors, and mitigates other behaviors.

Now don't take this as an insult dear, because you are a most articulate advocate of this profession. But you are also in love with the idea of change. And I agree. Someaspects of this professionmay benefit from a change.

But I think those of us that are in love with the notion of change need to be mindful that by changing the rules this class operates under, we cannot help but change the way the profession has to be played. A new functional tool creates a new responsibility to use the tool to its greatest effect. And whether or not we want to use the tool is hardly the issue. Our audience will nevertheless demand we use the tool, and will consider it our duty to use it when they want.

One of the things I was not responsible for at launch was to give out active buffing authorizations.Today however, dancers have this responsibility. And so now I have to play the class a different way in order to satisfy that new responsibility in order to meet the expectations of the audience. Of course, I could flat out refuse to give the buffing authorizations, but then I am not meeting the expectations of the audience, now am I? If they expect good service to be a buff, and I refuse to buff, then I am not providing good service.

I do not determine how to play this class. The patrons determine to us how they want this class to be played within the context of the abilities they know we possess for their benefit. And as long as we meet their required minimum expectations, we are then given the freedom to augment our performance to encompass other aspects that we think they may enjoy. But if our own personal feelings about our functional tools get in the way of using those tools when the audience asks for them, then we fail as good dancers in their eyes.

It is extremely unfair to say things like, "ifthe toolgets in the way of your performance, then don't use the tool." Because its not my place to determine for the audience what I think they should or should not expect from me. They are the ones with the expectation, not me. And they expect it because they know I have the ability to do it. And the only choice they give me is to either meet their expectation, or to refuse their expectation. If I meet their expectation, I get tipped. If I don't, I not onlymiss out on a tip, I get hated.

So that is why when I see proposals on the boards to change this or that about our functionality, I immediately ask myself this:

"What can the patrons ask of me that they could not ask of me before?"

Its a question we would do well to answer, answer honestly, and answer in terms of how this will change whatconstitutes "a performance that meets expectations."

One of the things I am not responsible for is to give a player a status report on his BF level. But if I have a tool that tells me what the BF level is at, it becomes another expectation of this class. I can choose not to use it, but that's not the point. If a patron wants it, and wants it used the way they want me to use it, it now becomes a factor in how well they think I service them. And since patrons know I have the ability to check their BF level, they will expect me to tell them when its time to go. You say I have choices, but I have no choice other than to comply with what the patron wants, or not to comply. And if I don't comply, then they'll start patronizing someone that will.

But if entertainers are expected to fulfill this new responsibility, then that means we will have to change the other aspects of what we do in order to comply with the new expectation. And this affects us all, no matter how we interpret our role. Changing the rules of the game changes how the game is played. And all I am saying is that if something like a dancer /diagnose becommes available, it is not up to us to determine how it is to be used. It is up to ouraudience to determine how we are to use it for their benefit.

Now knowing what I know about patrons these days, I can predict with some degree of certainty how they will expect us to use it. Instead of merely /watching a dancer, the fact that we can see their BF level also means they will now be able to ask us to manage their time for them as well. Maybe you want that responsibility Drygo. But why should I haveto deal with itsimply because you want it? Frankly, I don't want that responsibility, and I really don't understand why you want it. It doesn't make anything more fun for us, it onlyburdens us with more things we shouldn't have to be responsible for. I don't know how that will get me any more in terms of tips, any more of a platform to showcase my talents, or any more joy out of the profession. But I can think of a whole lot of ways it will prevent me from getting tips, showcasing my talents, or getting joy out of this profession. But I will nonetheless have to do it to meet the new expectation.

So that's why I don't agree with it Drygo. I am not one to push my expectation on this class. I merely play to the expectations of the audience. But as the abilities of what we do change, so too do the expectations of the audience change. And that means we have to change our playstyles to accomodate the changes--whether we like it or not.

Message Edited by PoetDancer on 11-19-2004 12:48 AM

Madame Sirii Ajaan
August 2003-September 15, 2005
"There is a difference between being /watched and being WATCHED."

LyteFoot

Fri Nov 19, 2004 7:51 am

#26

Well said Sirii and definitely a point of view I hadn't considered. Thanks for making me think about it differently.

Elwyn LyteFoot - Corbantis server

Dancer Archive

Thread: Suggestion: Entertainer /dia equivalent