Dancer Archive
Thread: City Professions: Entertainer, Pol, Merchant
Ikewe
Sat Feb 19, 2005 11:15 am
#27
I'm having a hard time following the thought process here because of sleep deprivation. If I understand the idea correctly, and that's a big if, then I'd have to say it doesn't appeal to me. I too am one of those dancers who likes having the option of performing (even though I personally think I stink at it) or healing and buffing. I don't want that desire to further cripple me skill pointwise. The current environment makes entertainers a "misunderstood" class. So many people do not understand how anyone can choose to be an entertainer and "sit and watch their toon flourish all day" (as though watching your toon kill all day is some how significantly more exciting.. but that's another topic). If we were to now be lumped in with other "non-entertainer" professions I think that would just add to the idea that no one knows why we are here. I like the idea that people are thinking about our skill point costs since they are indeed currently out of proportion but as somone else pointed out (sorry I can't for the life of me remember who at this moment) in order to decide where we go from here I think we must understand *why* our professions were originally given a higher SP requirement. Were we meant to berare? Were we intended to have more of a role either as healers or supporters or what have you? And once that piece of the puzzle has been found, we then have to decide how we currently fit and how we want to fit in the future.
Personally, I have started to think more and more that musicians and dancers should be two options of the same tree. We'd have the same role but two ways of expressing our art. Now I am not certain how that would impact those who want to be both musicians and dancers. And this thought is so nascent for me that I couldn't possibly know how it would affect anyone. I have only been thinking about it as a response to the "concerns" expressed by non-entertainers and such reactionary changes are rarely good ones.
Always in motion is the future.
Ikewe
Xyrdre
Sat Feb 19, 2005 4:22 pm
#28
Panthu wrote:
Deila will say if anything is really happening so no one panic!
Nope, no one need panic yet. 
Things are starting to move quietly behind the scenes, but there's nothing yet to report. I'm expecting some talks with devsregarding future direction/role/revampy type stuffto be starting up pretty soon here, and am really looking forward to getting those underway, but until those begin we're still in the "what if" speculation and brainstorming stages. Concepts like this one here are still in the "what would you guys think if we went a direction like this", and are more exploratory than telling.
I'm still reading, listening, and taking notes on your thoughts for our collective futures, so keep talking!
Elyssa
Sat Feb 19, 2005 11:09 pm
#29
I've gotta say that I'm not a big fan of moving Merchant from its current position in the Artisan tree.
Merchant is all about tangibles.
Sell item A to player B for money C.
Entertainer/Musician/Dancer and Image Designerare all about player to player interaction and providing an intangible service (assuming you can call holoemotes an intangible).
With "nothing" to sell (except musical instruments), I can't really see a logical fit to having them in the same skill tree.
In fact, I would imagine merchant to be one of the few professions you can be completely non-social with.
-You don't need to join groups
-You can craft your own products to sell.
-You can buy from other people's vendors and resell on your own.
-You can stock your vendors and wait for people to buy things.
You can do all of this without ever speaking to another player (and I frequently do).
However, you can do it just as well by actively managing suppliers and dealing directly with customers.
To me, the absolute flexibility in playstyle is one of the things I like best about being a Merchant.
However, that's just my opinion.
Feel free to invite the merchants over to chime in.
As for politician, I'm a little bit torn.
It really is its own animal and because of that, I kinda like seeing it where it is.
I don't know how Politicians as a whole felt about the no skill-point thing, but if it had been up to me, I'd have left the novice box with a 6 skill point cost (the same as an elite novice) just so whoever decided to become a Politician had to dedicate a little effort rather than making it a skill that everyone could have just for the sake of having it.
Of course, I'm not a politician and the change may have been what they all wanted so in that case it's a good thing. 
LyteFoot
Sun Feb 20, 2005 7:41 am
#30
Merchant has nothing to do with entertaining. If they are having trouble then eleminate it as a separate skill tree and combine it with artisan or the elite crafting professions where it should be.
Leave my healing and buffing capabilities where they are please. I chose musician for a specific reason. Now I won't opposse combining dance and music if that means the professions survive but I don't want a new and separate "relaxation specialist" skill for those abilities. They belong where they are. Why this new skill for the buffing portion of what we do? Is this a way to make buffbots possible while appeasing us with a non-macro capable skill set? I'm sorry it just sounds like a cheap way out to me.
Personally I would prefer to see musician and dancer stay separate and distinct. I hear people saying our skills overlap a lot and maybe healing wise they do but the presentation, motivation, and role are very different in RL and in game. I really don't see the logic in combining them, instead make them more appealing or make them non-macroable so that they become rare and special skills again.
Leave my healing and buffing capabilities where they are please. I chose musician for a specific reason. Now I won't opposse combining dance and music if that means the professions survive but I don't want a new and separate "relaxation specialist" skill for those abilities. They belong where they are. Why this new skill for the buffing portion of what we do? Is this a way to make buffbots possible while appeasing us with a non-macro capable skill set? I'm sorry it just sounds like a cheap way out to me.
Personally I would prefer to see musician and dancer stay separate and distinct. I hear people saying our skills overlap a lot and maybe healing wise they do but the presentation, motivation, and role are very different in RL and in game. I really don't see the logic in combining them, instead make them more appealing or make them non-macroable so that they become rare and special skills again.
LyteFoot
Sun Feb 20, 2005 7:49 am
#31
Esharra wrote:
Vorpaks wrote:
Esharra wrote:I'm all for combining musician and dancer, and if they want they can take the rest of my skillpoints because if I had it my way I'd never do anything else. As for the healing/buffing bs, make a buffbot profession. Give them a special little place they can call their on so I no longer have to log into my cantina and find them crowding each other out for that coveted spot in the front center of the stage. I no longer care..just as long as I can dance & play..that's what I came here for and it is why I've stuck around all this time. As long as I can dance & play, I'll be here..the rest of it no longer matters.
There are a lot of players who do play entertainers professions because they like the healing and buffing aspect though. And I am talking about legitamite players, not bots and exploiters.
Then there should be a separate situation for those who Want to buff and couldn't give a fig about performing. But it is not what I play for.
I perform and enjoy buffing and healing. I write songs, work with others to set up big performances, go do DWB buff groups, sit in cantinas and sell buffs, and hunt. I've been known to run into a cantina and help heal someone when I went to a remote location to hunt and I've been known to take down my musician tag so I could get a break and just hunt.
So I want to buff and I give a fig about performing. Separating them seriously kills my points distribution because I now can't fit in a fighting profession. Not everyone is one dimentional doing either performance or buffing.
Esharra
Sun Feb 20, 2005 8:30 am
#32
Heh..no one wants to waste skillpoints on something they've no interest in doing.
LyteFoot wrote:
Esharra wrote:
Vorpaks wrote:
Esharra wrote:
I'm all for combining musician and dancer, and if they want they can take the rest of my skillpoints because if I had it my way I'd never do anything else. As for the healing/buffing bs, make a buffbot profession. Give them a special little place they can call their on so I no longer have to log into my cantina and find them crowding each other out for that coveted spot in the front center of the stage. I no longer care..just as long as I can dance & play..that's what I came here for and it is why I've stuck around all this time. As long as I can dance & play, I'll be here..the rest of it no longer matters.
There are a lot of players who do play entertainers professions because they like the healing and buffing aspect though. And I am talking about legitamite players, not bots and exploiters.
Then there should be a separate situation for those who Want to buff and couldn't give a fig about performing. But it is not what I play for.
I perform and enjoy buffing and healing. I write songs, work with others to set up big performances, go do DWB buff groups, sit in cantinas and sell buffs, and hunt. I've been known to run into a cantina and help heal someone when I went to a remote location to hunt and I've been known to take down my musician tag so I could get a break and just hunt.
So I want to buff and I give a fig about performing. Separating them seriously kills my points distribution because I now can't fit in a fighting profession. Not everyone is one dimentional doing either performance or buffing.
LyteFoot
Sun Feb 20, 2005 9:07 am
#33
We make those choices all the time. The Combat tree of TK doesn't add a great deal for me but to get master TK and the meditate capabilities fully functional I have no choice. The ID tree of ent does me no good but to get master entertainer I had to fill it. Its all part of the decision process. Separating them makes it more difficult not less IMO.
shadowdefender
Sun Feb 20, 2005 11:02 am
#34
What I would really like to see would be the following:
Keep the current entertainer tree as it is - which includes ID - Dance - Music - Healing.
Then what I would love is the following:
Instead of a separate Dancer and Musician Tree the 2 trees are combined - So now we could be dancers and Musicians. Image Design would still have its own tree because it really is an independent line.
Just a thought.
Keep the current entertainer tree as it is - which includes ID - Dance - Music - Healing.
Then what I would love is the following:
Instead of a separate Dancer and Musician Tree the 2 trees are combined - So now we could be dancers and Musicians. Image Design would still have its own tree because it really is an independent line.
Just a thought.
Mariki
Mon Feb 21, 2005 12:06 am
#35
Well out of the Dancer and Musician skill trees, four use the very same experience, entertainer healing.
Both BF and wound healing operate the exact same way be it a dancer or a musician. I suppose it would not be unreasonable to combine Dancer and Musician into an Advanced Entertainer. One tree for dancer, one tree for music, one tree for BF healing, and one tree for wound healing. (Or a six tree profession with the current two music trees and dancing trees but a shared wound and BF tree).
At the same time I don't think merchant or politician needs to be lumped into this in any way. Politician is a no SP trade now and I think thats good. Merchant... well they need to revamp merchant, thats for sure. With the proposed galaxy wide trading on PC venders, most of the merchant skills are going to be useless. having to trade in SP for just additional venders or the ability to list more items just doesn't seem right.
Message Edited by Mariki on 02-14-2003 11:17 PM
Sakura-Ikari
Mon Feb 21, 2005 1:00 am
#36
my goodness... this is an interesting debate.
my thoughts:
sorry i'm bad with names, so i'm not gonna try to remember who said what, my apologies.
Please do not completely combine Musician and Dancer. That only helps the people who have both. (yes, i have a character that has both by the way, and i'm still screaming no). There are alot of people who love dance but hate music, or vice versa. This pure combination would not help them AT ALL! I really liked the idea one person had - there is NO NEED to have to get the 2 healing trees TWICE. Make the healing trees in dancer and musician overlap, so that if someone choses to master BOTH they only need to master the 2 additional knowledge trees. This would free up 28 skill points.
I also agree with what another person said that ID has never really made sense in entertainer. And yes I have an ID character as well, and she is NOT an entertainer. At all. It does seem more like medic, like one person stated, especially when you do the "plastic surgeon" line.
I understand feeling bad for merchants - because guess what - my main character Sakura has a BUNCH of wasted skill points in merchant. To me - the best way to fix merchant is to get rid of it as being an "elite" profession. Basically, the only useful skills in merchant come in the top box of each tree and the rest is fluff and filler. I think the devs could VERY EASILY put ALL of the skills attained in merchant in buisiness 1-4 (the 4 boxes in artisan that you have to fill currently to get "novice merchant"). But I do not think that either politician or merchant have anything to do with entertaining. And politician is fine where it is. It doesn't take skill points. Keep it away from entertainer. Mayors aren't entertaining! They are... mayors!
Finally, i don't like the idea of changing the name of the profession to "social". ICK!!!!! There are lots of social players, in all professions. It sounds to me like a slap in the face, like saying "pure entertainers don't really play the game. they are just using this like a chat room" I am so sick of hearing that. There is nothing wrong with the way we play the game! And the game would get boring VERY QUICKLY if people like us weren't here. We are ENTERTAINERS! We make things entertaining and fun and get peoples minds off the war and the killing. That SKILL takes more than just sitting in a chat room.
If none of this makes sense, well... sorry. I babble! LOL
Maisland
Mon Feb 21, 2005 1:45 am
#37
Sakura-Ikari wrote:
Please do not completely combine Musician and Dancer. That only helps the people who have both. (yes, i have a character that has both by the way, and i'm still screaming no). There are alot of people who love dance but hate music, or vice versa. This pure combination would not help them AT ALL! I really liked the idea one person had - there is NO NEED to have to get the 2 healing trees TWICE. Make the healing trees in dancer and musician overlap, so that if someone choses to master BOTH they only need to master the 2 additional knowledge trees. This would free up 28 skill points.
I also agree with what another person said that ID has never really made sense in entertainer. And yes I have an ID character as well, and she is NOT an entertainer. At all. It does seem more like medic, like one person stated, especially when you do the "plastic surgeon" line.
First, thanks for liking my idea about having the Fatigue and Wound Healing lines combined for both professions.A lot of the musicians posted a protest on the Musician Forum thread that links to this one and it seemed to me that sharing those 2 lines between the two professions would be a great compromise.
As for ID... I do see it as belonging in Entertainer not Medic/Doctor...I see it asthe Make-up Artist who gets the Performers ready for the stage. Sure, one of the titles an ID can get is "Plastic Surgeon" but then there is the Hair line... and what has cutting hair or applying make-up have to do with Medic? It also does not involve healing at all... so does not really have a place in medic.
Anoewyn
Mon Feb 21, 2005 9:32 pm
#38
Hmmm, no - no I don't like this idea at all :/
I like that I have the ability to perform and put on a show, its one of my most favourite things to do ingame. But I also like the fact that I can choose to help my friends by healing and buffing them - it gives me a sense of purpose and that I am contributing to my guild and good friends. The impression I am getting here is that if we segregate the "performing" part of our profession from the "healing/buffing" part that entertainers are being asked to either sacrifce parts of their profession that they enjoy due to skillpoint limitations.
Whilst I am a dancer first and foremost, I am also a fighter - and whilst many combat professions will argue that I have "gimped" myself for refusing to drop the entertaining profession I love, I just don't see how the skill points are going to stretch so that those of us who do participate in the GCW can enjoy being able to fight adequatley as well as being able to enjoy the socialisation/performance value of being an entertainer. I enjoy PvP and participate in it whenever I can and it would be an absolute shame if I had to give up skill points just to accomadate these new master titles.I'll admit theproposed skill tree didn't come across very clear to me except from theflow chart diagram someone created (thank you!!) but what kind of skill point allocations are we talking about?
I don't want to be a dancer who has to miss out on fantastic lighting effects and dances just so I can fulfill the skillpoint requirements of the "buffbot" tree so that I am useful to my guild, my friends and mycommunity by providing them with the best possible heal/buff, and I don't want to be a dancer whose sole purpose is to heal/buff and send people on their way because I cannot have access to all the visual effects and tools to put on the best visual show, choreography and entertainment I can provide- that would just feel like the buffbot "conveyor belt" system I see in the cantinas now, where people set their macro to "heal, buff and off ye go, next please". I enjoy both sides, and want to continue enjoying both aspects of this profession.
I'm sorry - but this just doesn't sit right with me, the whole having someone specialised in just the pure entertainment or having someone specialised in mind enhancement. It feels like at the end of the day, after all our struggles to rid the community of buffbots to the best of our ability, that we are choosing to create a separate line of skills that each require masteries.If this was to happen, players are going to be forced to ask the entertainers they come across "Do you specialise in healing/buffing", and if not then they will move on to someone who does, and that entertainer loses its prospective audience. It is an unfortunate attitude that permeates the SWG culture, that our services as entertainer are worth littleoutside the realm of buffing, and its something we have been rallying against since the holocraze. It is like we will be acheiving nothing, that we have not educated our community that entertainers have the ability to be more than a "buffbot" (afk or not). I don't want to be any less of a dancer in favor of healing/buffing, and I don't want to be soley a buffbot due to the exclusion of the visual effects/dances/skills of my trade.
I can understand the good intentions of this idea, but would ask that it be carefully considered - I think there are a lot of ramifications for going down this path. I'm not even going to go into the idea of politician/merchant being in the same set, but it doesn't feel as if they belong.Those who have said it is like giving up, I completely agree with - instead of improving the profession by providing the content we have been asking for since before last year, this idea is likebeing labelled and thrown into the "too-hard-basket-lets-just-merge" the professions instead of working on giving them the unique differentiation,qualities of usefulness, purpose and direction they deserve.
Petronela
Tue Feb 22, 2005 5:40 am
#39
If I understand this idea correctly, then I have to say I completely dislike it.
No offence meant to any of the professions it would combine, but I have no wish for my avatar to be the Jack-Of-All-Trades.
I like having to make choices, to weight in to which skill the points will go.
If anything like this ever gets off the drawing table, then I would suggest to call the class BoT, because with few tweaks that would basically be the template many of them have already, may even consider rolling a doctor in to it.
Ok, sarcasm aside, I guess the main reason I dislike the idea is because I have always enjoyed for classes to be interdependent and encouraged to work together. Sure, combining classes together would make it lot more convenient, but the resulting blend would really have nothing unique in it. It would basically become a very convenient Alt. Class but the originality would be completely lost.
As for whoever keeps on 1-starring Panthu, come on people, grow up…
Deli'ah
No offence meant to any of the professions it would combine, but I have no wish for my avatar to be the Jack-Of-All-Trades.
I like having to make choices, to weight in to which skill the points will go.
If anything like this ever gets off the drawing table, then I would suggest to call the class BoT, because with few tweaks that would basically be the template many of them have already, may even consider rolling a doctor in to it.
Ok, sarcasm aside, I guess the main reason I dislike the idea is because I have always enjoyed for classes to be interdependent and encouraged to work together. Sure, combining classes together would make it lot more convenient, but the resulting blend would really have nothing unique in it. It would basically become a very convenient Alt. Class but the originality would be completely lost.
As for whoever keeps on 1-starring Panthu, come on people, grow up…
Deli'ah