Dancer Archive
Thread: Take Our Buffing!
Schardour
Sun Mar 06, 2005 10:48 am
#28
*three quick snaps in z-formation*
Alright ladies (and gents, even though I don't see many left in here), let's check our eggo's at the door (and leave them with me, because waffles>pancakes), and think about what's best for everybody. We have multiple playstyles rolled into a single profession, so we have to think about what's best for our other entertainers like us, as well as what's best for our combat-oriented friends! I think we need to look for game systems that please everyone, and not just a single playstyle. If we lived in a vacuum, we could ask for anything we want. But we obviously don't, so keep that in mind as you analyze some of our issues....
PoetDancer
Sun Mar 06, 2005 1:53 pm
#29
LyteFoot wrote:
Remove that and you will make great money as a master musician or dancer.
The buffbot Briha is not the richest non-player on Bria because she sells buffs.
Its because she gives them away for free that she's the richest non-player on Bria.
Because what willa dancerdo when someone who plays live and can buff at higher percentages enters into the cantina we are at and simply gives away the buffing protocols, like I do?
I give away these things for free. It costs me nothing to give, so I don't charge for buffs. How can I charge for buffs when there is so much that is out of my control in the buffing process? I want to get the whole stupid process out of the way and out of a patron's mind so I can start doing the things that will get me tipped.
PoetDancer
Mon Mar 07, 2005 1:59 am
#30
Oh I have to say crafters and combatants deserve all that money. They require capital outlays, after all, and they oftentimes run at a loss. I don't have that problem though. The way I see it, I can enter into any cantina where there are people and potentially come away with credits. No need for buffs. No need for equipment. No need for anything but me and the show I bring with me and the free mechanics such a show brings to them.
But just because my mechanics are free doesn't mean my presence is free. I expect to be paid. If I find out its not paying off, I'll leave. The problem I have with buffbots is not that they give away free buffs. Buffs are meant to be free and always were. The problem I have with them is that they don't have any faculty about them that desires to make best use of their time. That's the problem with them. There is no need to give them any credit incentive to leave or stay.
Because if anyone thinks that at this juncture that what we do through /setperform and /invite are things thatwe can sell need only find themselves in a situation where there is someone who can buff higher than them giving away thissad gimmickof ours for nothing. For me at least I really don't see the point in charging for buffs under this current system,because I expend the same time and action barwhen I give it or keep it from them. Might as well give it to them, rather than cause a fuss. Moreover, just because I give a player an /invite doesn't mean they will get a buff. In fact, half the work is the buffee's. How can I charge someone when they do half the work?
So when I'm asked, I give it away. For free. And nine times out of ten players will tip me because I didn't make it a hassle by keeping it from them when they asked. Its the only way I can play with buffbots around, and it is the only way I'll play this game even when buffbots aren't around.
But I do wish the system were easier and more intuitive for both patron and performer. Its not even outlined in the rulebook or holocron how to do or receive this mathematical ordeal. So why even have it around?
LyteFoot
Mon Mar 07, 2005 6:51 am
#31
PoetDancer wrote:Who says I'm not making that money now?
So you are performing in venues where our mechanics for buffing and healing don't work and you are making good money just for performing?
Unless you are only performing exclusively where our mechanics don't work then you really can't make the claim that you are making because you aren't in the same situation you are proposing. If we had no mechanics for healing and buffing or if all people had to do to get buffed was silently and unobtrusively watch us I think they would act very differently. I'm very confident in assuming that if they didn't need any mechanics from us at all you would never see 99.9% them in the cantina. Sure some people tip for the show, I do the random starport jam and street performance all the time. Of the dozens that go past perhaps 5 to 10 will actually stop and watch. Of those that stop and watch perhaps one or two will tip. Rarely someone tips big. None of those are amounts I could survive on in this game at the level I want to survive. I like decorating my residences, I like having weapons and armor when I want it, I like collecting loot and then buying that dang hard to find blue glue when I'm tired of hunting it. I couldn't do that off the money I make performing and I make what I consider fairly above average entertainer income for corbantis.
I don't want to have to perform every minute I'm playing the game to try and increase my income. I want a function that others depend on but have to request from me. One that can't be automated or passively taken from me. Fix the automation piece and I think that buffing is fine, it could be easier for the combatant but I've worked with combatants from new to very bot trained and rarely have any issues with them following a few simple instructions. Take away our control and make them passive and we have nothing to sell. The / commands are simply how everything in this game works. Even crafters are really just selling / commands when it comes down to it, every single thing in this game is virtual except our time and the / commands we use to drive the game and pass the time. No one in this game really deserves to make a lot more than someone else based on the profession they play because no profession is really any riskier than the next. No one is mortgaging their house or betting the family fortune, its all an entertainment time sink.
Ravanne_Esi
Mon Mar 07, 2005 6:57 am
#32
LyteFoot wrote:
PoetDancer wrote:
Who says I'm not making that money now?
So you are performing in venues where our mechanics for buffing and healing don't work and you are making good money just for performing?
I've made more in one random Starport jam then I've made to date from buffing. True only a small portion of the people coming thru stop to listen but the ones who do all have a good time and there are many who tip quite well, even knowing that they are getting nothing other than enteretainment. The notiion that other players are only interested in our game mechanics is false, many are more than happy to have us there for purely social/RP/entertainment purposea.
Allia_Rain
Mon Mar 07, 2005 7:03 am
#33
Yep, I've gotten my best tips from people who have stayed in the cantina far longer then the time needed to heal any battle fatigue and all the credits put together that I've gotten from buffing doesn't even come close to half what my best tip for that was.
Ravanne_Esi wrote:
I've made more in one random Starport jam then I've made to date from buffing. True only a small portion of the people coming thru stop to listen but the ones who do all have a good time and there are many who tip quite well, even knowing that they are getting nothing other than enteretainment. The notiion that other players are only interested in our game mechanics is false, many are more than happy to have us there for purely social/RP/entertainment purposea.
LyteFoot
Mon Mar 07, 2005 9:18 am
#34
It shows that servers are very different. I've gotten decent tips for pure entertaining, no denying that. However the credits I've made buffing far exceed any I've made from purely performing. I've made more from one DWB group session than I've made from all the hours I've spent on pure entertainment jams and my best tip for pure entertaining was 100k from someone who was leaving the game.
Warryyr
Mon Mar 07, 2005 10:01 am
#35
I'm on the verge of championing removal of Entertainers completely from SWG.
I just deleted a post I'd worked 20 minutes on, because it was lame ranting and raving. You know, the usual from me.
I have nothing more to say really except: Our professions suck right now and public entertainment is worthless in this game right now, and Devs give us a BS line of "positive changes being announced next week" and give us nothing. NOTHING. Can't even tell us ONE FRIGGIN WORD about ANYTHING changing for us, for the better. Why is it ALL or NOTHING? And if it's nothing, why the HELL couldn't you tell us why and post a NEW DELIVERY DATE? SOETyrant, I'm looking at you...
If the Devs can't even show us some God**edit** respect, all hope is lost for us.
No respect in-game in public, no respect on the forums from the Devs = hopeless.
Ikewe
Mon Mar 07, 2005 10:07 am
#36
LyteFoot wrote:
It shows that servers are very different.
That's it in a nutshell. And it's the reason any proposed change to the dancer profession doesn't fill me with the great hope that it does others. On my server there is literally a handful of live entertainers. The vast majority of non-entertainers are geared toward "xp grinding" for their Jedi or to level their alts. They don't play this as an interactive, interdependent role-playing game. They play it as a second job. Would I like them to tip me because they watched and enjoyed a performance, yes. But I have to be realistic. They want the healing and the buffing. Without those functions, I'm no more useful in the galaxy than the "farmer" hanging out in the cantina.
and yes it was a depressing weekend on Shadowfire and I came one step closer to chucking in the dancing shoes.
Ikewe, Shadowfire
PoetDancer
Mon Mar 07, 2005 10:11 am
#37
My only question at this point Elwyn is how could you possibly have played in your time as an entertainer base professional? Indeed, how could you have played in the times before the November 3rd buffing rules? Because passivity was all that we had, and we made it work.
But instead of selling "/" commands, we sold our presence. And to me, that wasmuch more in line with the spirit of what this class is about. We have more tools now than ever before to prevent players we don't want to give game mechanics to to prevent them from getting them from us.
I agree with you. This class and its ability to run unattended breaks down the underpinnings of this class, but not in terms of giving away active commands. Buffbots are breaking this class because they are turning the buff into the passive command itnaturally ismeant to be, and putting the buff back into the hands it really belongs to: the patron. The problem is though,one does not have to persuade the buffbot to stay. It will stay regardless of whether it is used or unused, tipped or not tipped, because it has no will of its own. It is simply told what to do by an outside source.
If and when unattendence is removed, we will be in a much stronger position, and have much greater leverage over our functions. Live players have so many options available to them to prevent being taken advantage of.
First of all, they have eyes. They can see who is in the cantina /watching or /listening.
They also have minds. They can take down the names and tags of freeloaders or rude players.
They also have voices. They can ask other guild members questions like, "why did your guild members not tip me?" They can tell new players or players that are disgruntled things like"you should join <XYZ> guild. They are all real gentlemen."
These things may not sound like much, but they are very effective tools to enforce cantina behaviours, on the condition that cantina work is done by players, and not non-players. Its what we did before to protect our interests, and what we can do again if unattendence is no longer an issue.
Devil_Tiger
Mon Mar 07, 2005 10:15 am
#38
To date, I have made more creds flying in space, selling parts on the bazaar, and going hunting than I could ever make performing and more so than doing buffs. I get 0 in tips 99% of the time while performing, and when I do get tipped it's usually a pity tip. If I had to rely on the oh-so-generous public of Valcyn, I'd be sleeping in the cantinas and begging for creds on the streets. I support myself by hunting and flying, otherwise I'd never be able to afford clothes to dance in and other things I need.
I never get asked for buffs since I'm not a MD or MM and my template will only allow for technique and knowledge 4 in both dance and music. I will never be able to compete with any masters (live or zombie), and only my friends will be the ones asking to get buffs from me. For the most part, I don't use entertainer buffs on either server I play on. When I do get them on Radiant, there is only one person I get my buffs from and I tip her well (even though she tells me I don't need to). On Valcyn, on the other hand, I never ever get mind buffs. I can go hunting with doc buffs and brandies and I do very well like that.
AFK buff zombies have pretty much destroyed and exploited the entertainer professions. They've driven combat professions to view ALL entertainers as buff vendor zombies, as if our sole purpose in life is to make them better than everyone else. In spite of this, I don't wish for SOE to take buffs away from us. If and when the recursive macro fix comes to see the light of day and the CURB decides to make it's debut, live entertainers will be needed more than ever. Keep the buffs, kill the zombies that exploit and destroy entertainers.
Message Edited by Devil_Tiger on 03-07-2005 11:19 AM
Schardour
Mon Mar 07, 2005 11:35 am
#39
Ravanne_Esi wrote:
The notiion that other players are only interested in our game mechanics is false, many are more than happy to have us there for purely social/RP/entertainment purposes.
QFE
I think this is exactly what needs to be expanded upon.
ME ME ME ME ME ME ME !
This ispreciselytheattitudeI've been noticngan excessive amountof on the entertainer forums lately. Granted, not every word spoken here is selfish, but rarely do I see mention of balance or game direction. Our focus on unattended play is profession-centric, our requests for buffing power takes little into account the restrictions it places on the rest of the community, and our visions of the future of the profession are oftentailored only to the playstyle which we enjoy most as an individual.As these professions attract a variety of players (seeking both social and support venues), acertain balanceneeds to be reached when designing our role within the game and the functionality we are given. Because this is what our development team understands. They understand BALANCE, and FAIRNESS. The developers want to make combat faster, simpler, and more interactive. How do we fit into that role? Why would we want to ask for an ability that flies in the face of what's great for other players? Why would we ask for an ability that slows a combatant from entering their world? They'll have time for our world if they're able to enjoy it. If we're simply another necessary step to take before going to hunt, or defending their base...if we're simply another necessarytime- and money-sink...then they're not going to enjoy our world. And this is what we're seeking: An overall enjoyment of the game.