Dancer Archive
Thread: Take Our Buffing!
Esharra
Sat Mar 05, 2005 11:35 am
#14
My game was much better before our buffs were "improved". The change inNov. 03 turned buffing from something that a few docs would ask me to do for them so they could apply more doc buffs before a raid into something that everyone & their freakin dog decided they could not live without. Sure we had to deal with unattended play since day one (I started dancing day 6) but unattended levelers and healers were nothing compared to the buff bots and the combatters' opinion that buffs were their dev given right.
My player city cantina & theater are closed to the public right now because I was tossing out an average of 4 buffbots a day and got sick of dealing with the harassment I got from their owners and they will remain closed until either buffs or the bots are done away with. It matters not to me which way the devs go about handling it.
Our buffs were improved with the intent of giving us, the live entertainers, an advantage over the afk'ers and a viable income..well..that's not worked out as planned.
Schardour
Sat Mar 05, 2005 11:53 am
#15
Drygo wrote:
Giving up our skills is NOT the answer.
Message Edited by Drygo on 03-05-2005 10:44 AM
Oh, I certainly wouldn't propose something like that solely as a solution to unattended play. I think our current position in combat support/prep creates more tension than necessary, andpromotes an unhealthyentertainingenvironment. The buffbots are a symptom of that fact. Why do they feel the need to create a buffbot? Ignore the lame accusations of "limited live entertainer ability," "lack of dancers," and "real players are mean," and you'll see combatants want a shortened prep window. Simply because they have to visit us first, we'll never be able to provide that for them. We'll always be another "chore." Anything that prolongs their wait is going to cause animosity.
I'm of the firm belief that all interaction between entertainers and other community members should take place in their downtime. Asking them to wait 5 minutes before entering their game is rather selfish, because, let's face it, the cantina is our game in their eyes.
PoetDancer
Sat Mar 05, 2005 12:07 pm
#16
Who says anything about giving up skills? I see no reason why buffs need to be taken away. Its not the buffing ability that is bad, its the fact that our profession has been reduced to giving away "/" commands.
How does it feel, dancers? How does it feelto know that you can be the most boring entertainer in the world, but get +125% buffing clothes and have players beg you and tip you millions just to get a "/" command?
Even if the ability to unattend were taken away tomorrow, we'd have "buffbot like" problems if this system remained. Because how would you like it if a second instance merely operated on a second monitor doing all the things buffbots do now, and are merely throwing buffing authorizations out along with routinized spam?
We need a system that is wholly passive, not this system that cannot decide who's responsibility it is to buff. Passivity is something we know how to play, and guess what, It favours live play! It gives everyone an incentive to perform, from the novice with her red shoes, to the master in the +125% clothes. This active "compromise" is just a protection racket for boring buffbots, who benefit from the routinized regularity of the buffing cycle, and the stress it causes the patrons in wondering if the process has been fulfilled on both ends.
I say take away the thing that they give away and are called beneficent for giving away, and take out the stress between live patrons and live performers. Make this profession more than the effort to dish out "/" commands that we get blamed for not taking due to factors beyond our control. These protocols nerf us in ways that are all too apparent on this thread. And I would go as far as to say that if the November 3rd "enhancements" of /setperform and /invite were never introduced, we wouldn't have the buffbot problem we have now.
Doriana
Sat Mar 05, 2005 12:08 pm
#17
I have a huge fear that they will take our buffing and give it to someone else..
Taking them away all together I could live with. Would I like it and agree? No, but it would follow the idea of "If you can't play nice you can't have your toys," and combatants definitely haven't been playing nice. So I could deal.
But I would very likely quit if our buffing was given to some other class, and I WOULD if a new class was created to do it. Why? Because I will never stand for dev validation of buffbots. And if they took what is ours and gave it away because of combatants abusing the system that would be validating the abuse and agreeing "Yeah those worthless entertainers are just screw ups anyway. Here, we'll just give you a new profession you can bot."
I'm with Drygo on this one. Fix the abuse before we do something drastic like removing the ability. Then we can re-evaluate if it's still not working. How do you get buffing back once you've given it away?
Taking them away all together I could live with. Would I like it and agree? No, but it would follow the idea of "If you can't play nice you can't have your toys," and combatants definitely haven't been playing nice. So I could deal.
But I would very likely quit if our buffing was given to some other class, and I WOULD if a new class was created to do it. Why? Because I will never stand for dev validation of buffbots. And if they took what is ours and gave it away because of combatants abusing the system that would be validating the abuse and agreeing "Yeah those worthless entertainers are just screw ups anyway. Here, we'll just give you a new profession you can bot."
I'm with Drygo on this one. Fix the abuse before we do something drastic like removing the ability. Then we can re-evaluate if it's still not working. How do you get buffing back once you've given it away?
Schardour
Sat Mar 05, 2005 12:21 pm
#18
Would we necessarily want buffing back? Do we really want to be tied to the combat community in this particular way? I think our relationship is centered around the wrong theories. I believe, like most of you, that we're an extremely undervalued asset. However, unlike some who have posted here, I don't believe it can be fixed if buffing remains our primary draw. The majority of combatants will always resent being forced to visit us before combat. Why not drive them to us after combat? Why not bring crafters into our audience? What about making us more integral in social activities such as event planning (damn the devs and the bright idea to make those tools available to everybody 
)and party atmospheres?
)and party atmospheres?Message Edited by Schardour on 03-05-2005 02:21 PM
PoetDancer
Sat Mar 05, 2005 12:33 pm
#19
I like the draw of the enhancements. It gives players multiple reasons to see us. However, buffing in its current form for us is a reason to see us that is not beneficial. For I personally want players to come see me only if they have the state of mind necessary to appreciate the things I do.
Moreover, I don't really think that the combat types resent going to the cantina as much as they resent the fact that they have to play host to a tedious process. We have heard it all before, "I don't care about anything other than my buff," and why is that? Its because buffing is as much work for them as it is for us...if not more so.
The work is in doing those things that will get them a buff: /watching in the correct order, understanding what can interfeare with a /watch, /stopwatching at the correct time. All of those things are equally important in getting a buff in this current system.
"Can u buff me" is a symptom of a problem. Because in truth, I cannot buff them. I can give them an /invite or a /setperform, but it is just as much their responsibility to buff themselves by /watching me.
Combat players have no trouble doing what they need to do in order to accomplish their goals. If they know that all they need to do is give a /watch to a qualified performer, it puts them in a mood where they can appreciate other things. What they cannot easily deal with is the notion that their enjoyment rests on another who may in fact "screw up." And it really doesn't even matter if buffs get screwed up because of what they did, the very fact that we give away the /setperform or /invite puts us in a position of blame by the mere fact that we are the ones that give it.
Combat players like buffbots because it gives them the feeling that they are in charge of their own destiny. I say we must let the system facilitate this, and allow buffing through a simple /watch. Ultimately, we can choose to leave the venue or /denyservice, but I think its time that we reduce theelements that live players have to accomplish to provide "a performance that meets expectations," and at the same time focus more attention on those things that will get us tipped: amusing, live play.
Message Edited by PoetDancer on 03-05-2005 01:40 PM
Drygo
Sat Mar 05, 2005 12:46 pm
#20
I would rather them take away our buffs than make them completely passive. I understand where you're coming from Sirii. But, I just can't agree with it. It seems to me that we all become buffbots if that ever happens.
PoetDancer
Sat Mar 05, 2005 12:55 pm
#21
I disagree Drygo. In fact, the system we have now is the thing that turns us into buffbots.
Because today, we could be the most amusing, funny, live, technically proficient, and fine dancers around, but if we don't give a simple "/" command, we are seen as worse dancers than the annoying, discordant, boring, spastic, and automated dancers who let the macro system give out the "/" commands.
Eliminate the "/" commands, and we put the game into a realm where the performance is not a matter of giving away, "/" commands, but is rather a measure of how well one is able to combine the elements in such a way as to make the patron's time go by smoother. We are rest and recreation places. It should be relaxing for patrons, not stressful and uncertain.
Schardour
Sat Mar 05, 2005 1:12 pm
#22
Drygo wrote:
Get rid of the ability to afk, not our skills.
I was once in the same camp, but don't you see? The ability to perform our services while afk has been allowed to continue for far too long. At one time I could argue that the number of live entertainers on a server could easily cover the needs of the combat community if/when the ability to bot was removed. That's slowly becoming much more difficult for me to argue. It's getting to the point where I believe a sudden removal of buffbots would spark too much animosity toward the few(er) remaining Masters. In addition to that, if our buffs were to remain a well-demanded service (which we would want, if we were trying to sell them), the fact that the ability to bot was prolonged for such an extended amount of time will drive even more bot owners to attempt to work around the new system, through either the use of ingame mechanics or third-party macros. The longer it remains, the more difficult it will be to rid ourselves of.
In addition to that, I have an issue with our placement in the combat timeline. Our services (centered around temporal costs, rather than capital costs) should not be rendered when a player is rushing to leave us, but instead when a player wants to visit us and has the time to do so. I suppose you could argue that a soldier may want to drop by the bar to down a couple of beers before rushing into combat, but I don't see any other explanation for our placement at that particular point in combat preparation.
LyteFoot
Sat Mar 05, 2005 10:45 pm
#23
Ravanne_Esi wrote:Hmmmm? Let's see. Master Dancer and Master Musician with a buffing income of ZERO. If buffs went away tomorrow I couldn't care less. The only ones making any signifigant income from buffing are the buffbots and if they disappeared we would all be better off. Get rid of the buffbots or get rid of the buffs, either will work just fine as far as I'm concerned.
LyteFoot wrote:
Take away buffs and you take away a pure ents income so you better find a way to replace it. Rarely do people pay for healing and those that pay for a good show don't often pay much. I like our buffing functionality and want it to stay but if it doesn't then you must replace it with something else that is needed and not provided by just listening to me.
Zero? You need to find a new server. I make very good money buffing. Not combat level money but I certainly make decent credits.
That being said I agree that AFK play needs to go. Remove that and you will make great money as a master musician or dancer.
LyteFoot
Sat Mar 05, 2005 11:02 pm
#24
Sirii I disagree completely. I think it needs more interaction on our part. You are depending on your show bringing the players in. First they have to know you exist and second if simply watching you is all that is needed bots will get worse not better. The majority of bots don't exist for credits, they exist as an aid to a guild or other group. No mechanics on their part will make them more common place not less because it will take no effort at all to set one up.
Most players, not all mind you, but most are here to shoot things and win. Forget that its an MMORPG with no ending they have been trained that you level up and beat the end game. They could care less about being entertained just for the sake of entertainment. I've performed in starports and outside theed cantina many many times. We all know we can't do anything here so the only reason for stopping is to be entertained. Even when people had to wait 10 minutes between shuttles far more parked their toons at the ticket droid and stared blankly than ever watched me entertain. Making our skills totally passive just insures that buff bots won't break, won't stop, and won't require multi-minute buff cycles with disorganized fighter groupings (thank goodness for their greediness at times). The buff will be so easy to get it might as well come from a blue frog. That will drive their use up not down.
Most players, not all mind you, but most are here to shoot things and win. Forget that its an MMORPG with no ending they have been trained that you level up and beat the end game. They could care less about being entertained just for the sake of entertainment. I've performed in starports and outside theed cantina many many times. We all know we can't do anything here so the only reason for stopping is to be entertained. Even when people had to wait 10 minutes between shuttles far more parked their toons at the ticket droid and stared blankly than ever watched me entertain. Making our skills totally passive just insures that buff bots won't break, won't stop, and won't require multi-minute buff cycles with disorganized fighter groupings (thank goodness for their greediness at times). The buff will be so easy to get it might as well come from a blue frog. That will drive their use up not down.
Sunjammer
Sun Mar 06, 2005 1:18 am
#25
Schardour wrote:
I'm of the firm belief that all interaction between entertainers and other community members should take place in their downtime.
QFE. I'm all for keeping the interdependency of this game -- it's one of the best things about SWG -- just make it after the mission, not before.
LyteFoot wrote:
I disagree that our buffs intefer significantly with combat players getting started. Sheesh you get both in under 2 minutes now.
It isn't the time I objected to, it's the very existance of buffs that I find immersion-breaking. This isn't a fantasy game where they can be explained away as spells. I can't voluntarily do without them because of the way the game is set up, and I can't pretend I'm in the Star Wars universe while needing them.
Take away buffs and you take away a pure ents income so you better find a way to replace it. Rarely do people pay for healing and those that pay for a good show don't often pay much. I like our buffing functionality and want it to stay but if it doesn't then you must replace it with something else that is needed and not provided by just listening to me.
I've never made a single cent from buffing, because I've never given a buff. I'm not a master, and the times I've offered to give an understrength buff because no master was around I wasn't taken up on it. All of my income as a dancer has been from BF and mind healing--and performing.
Admittedly it isn't much, though. I bought my house by taking up mining and selling resources for a few weeks. But I make enough in tips to keep up the maintainance. As far as clothing goes, it's like pulling teeth to get the tailors I know to take any money from me. And if I couldn't afford accargam or bio-tapes or whatever, well I don't ever need them, either.
Umi
LyteFoot
Sun Mar 06, 2005 8:14 am
#26
So by having no skill that another player needs your assitance in obtaining you will make money off them? Simply by being a great performer you will make tips because they appreciate your performance? All of this will add up to enough income to support your character comfortably? Then why aren't you making that money now?
Without interdependence, without something they need that they can only get if you actively are involved in providing it, without removing the ability to have others automate that process totally AFK the vast majority of people will simply pass you by or take your functionality without paying.
The problem isn't the commands the problem is the ability to automate them completely to become an NPC and give them away. Remove the ability to AFK not the commands. Doctor functions can be automated just as well as ours. The difference is that their functionality has a cost associated with it so they are unwilling to give it away and it uses inventory so they have to be semi-present to insure they don't run out. Maybe what we need to consider instead is adding similar resources and inventory requirements for our skills. I'm not sure how it would make sense from an RP point of view but it would change the AFK automaton's activities immediately.
If they aren't going to get rid of AFK then lets ask them to remove our skills from FS access. An entertainer can't participate in the quests so just remove our skill points from the tree. That alone would remove a ton of AFKers.
Without interdependence, without something they need that they can only get if you actively are involved in providing it, without removing the ability to have others automate that process totally AFK the vast majority of people will simply pass you by or take your functionality without paying.
The problem isn't the commands the problem is the ability to automate them completely to become an NPC and give them away. Remove the ability to AFK not the commands. Doctor functions can be automated just as well as ours. The difference is that their functionality has a cost associated with it so they are unwilling to give it away and it uses inventory so they have to be semi-present to insure they don't run out. Maybe what we need to consider instead is adding similar resources and inventory requirements for our skills. I'm not sure how it would make sense from an RP point of view but it would change the AFK automaton's activities immediately.
If they aren't going to get rid of AFK then lets ask them to remove our skills from FS access. An entertainer can't participate in the quests so just remove our skill points from the tree. That alone would remove a ton of AFKers.