Dancer Archive
Thread: Take Our Buffing!
Okay, Schardour. I have said it before, but I am more than willing to give up buffs if, and ONLY IF, they replace it with something else that guarantees us money. I think most of us here would. It is not selfish to say we want to be part of the interdependence. And, if you or any dev can come up with something then I'm all ears. Until they do, I want to keep my buffing. How many times have I had to search for food? How many times have I had to search or wait for new armor or weapons. How many times have I had to stand over 10 minutes in line for a doctor buff? Do I resent any of these professions? Absolutely not. I know that I need them, I respect them, and I play the game the way it is supposed to be played. If buffbots had never existed in the first place, people would have learned to respect us and be polite, and make contacts and friends of entertainers. They may resent us now, but that's because the macro existed and has hardly anything to do with being another slowdown for the combat community.
Schardour wrote:
Ravanne_Esi wrote:
The notiion that other players are only interested in our game mechanics is false, many are more than happy to have us there for purely social/RP/entertainment purposes.
QFE
I think this is exactly what needs to be expanded upon.
ME ME ME ME ME ME ME !
This ispreciselytheattitudeI've been noticngan excessive amountof on the entertainer forums lately. Granted, not every word spoken here is selfish, but rarely do I see mention of balance or game direction. Our focus on unattended play is profession-centric, our requests for buffing power takes little into account the restrictions it places on the rest of the community, and our visions of the future of the profession are oftentailored only to the playstyle which we enjoy most as an individual.As these professions attract a variety of players (seeking both social and support venues), acertain balanceneeds to be reached when designing our role within the game and the functionality we are given. Because this is what our development team understands. They understand BALANCE, and FAIRNESS. The developers want to make combat faster, simpler, and more interactive. How do we fit into that role? Why would we want to ask for an ability that flies in the face of what's great for other players? Why would we ask for an ability that slows a combatant from entering their world? They'll have time for our world if they're able to enjoy it. If we're simply another necessary step to take before going to hunt, or defending their base...if we're simply another necessarytime- and money-sink...then they're not going to enjoy our world. And this is what we're seeking: An overall enjoyment of the game.
Armor, weapons, and foods are all items that can be purchased at ones leisure, and not moments after a raid has begun. Doctor buffs are an instant-application bonus. While I agree it may be difficult to find one as an entertainer at times, many combat circles have dedicated buffing players and doctor in their templates. An entertainer offers nothing more to combat than 5 minutes of preparation. The armor, weapons, foods, and doctors can go with the battle. We often can't.
Drygo wrote:
And, if you or any dev can come up with something then I'm all ears.
- Mini-games could be turned into possible income.
- More interactive missions with higher payouts that are scaled to entertainer ability.
- The spawning of random, unattackableNPC informants in cantinas (think instanced,objective-oriented NPC's like"the old man") that approach an entertainer with bounty or mission details. Those details are passed on to a BH, or other mission taker. Once completed, each receives payment. Credits for the one completing the mission, and either credits or loot/reward items for the cantina-savvy entertainer. (My idea.
)
Can we think of any more?
Message Edited by Schardour on 03-07-2005 02:02 PM
Schardour wrote:
Ikewe wrote:
For far too long my game experience has been all about making life easier for the combat player at the expense of all else.
And if we continue to have the ability to buff as our central selling point, this will not cease.
No. You are giving into that mentality. The truth is, if buffbots winked out of existence tomorrow, people would have to learn to deal with us in a more pleasant manner and respect what we bring to the table. If they didn't, they would have to go without. It doesn't matter if doc buffsare instantly applied, or you don't go searching for stuff right before a battle. It's all the same. All of these professions are respected because they have to be. Due to the afk buffbots, nobody has to respect us. So, even if we ask for the simplest of things...a little common courtesy, or to choose us over a buffbot when we're in the same Cantina and offer just as good or better services, people lash out at us. By game mechanics only, the buffbots are entertainers. Are they resented? No. They are praised and glorified. And, if they weren't allowed, those of us who actually want to play entertainers would be praised and glorified too.
Schardour wrote:
Ikewe wrote:
For far too long my game experience has been all about making life easier for the combat player at the expense of all else.
And if we continue to have the ability to buff as our central selling point, this will not cease.
I disagree. Currently, a player has the option to go to a 23/7 machine to get a buff. SInce Ihave have the ability to provide the same service then I am expected to provide it 23/7 whenever and where ever the combat player needs it. However, if the combat player can only get that service from an actual performer then he or she must rely upon the entertainer. If I want a weapon or somearmor from a 12pt master then I have to wait for him or her to make the weapon and then place it for sale. I can't run into their shop shouting "rifle plz" and run out with it 2 minutes later.
Because the game community has accepted the belief that combat players should never be faced with the prospect of having to actually put effort into getting ready for combat, we have become the mind buff slaves of the galaxy. Today if I refuse to provide this service then the combat player simply goes to Outpost X and uses the local bot. But what if there were no bot? What option would the combat player have? He or she would have to work to find another entertainer or fix whatever faux pas had been committed to get back into my good graces. I am not the green slave twi on the end of a chain, forced to dance until my lekku fall off. I am a Master Dancer. If my mind buff service is so vital to the combat player then he'll need to curry my favor for a change.
I understand your point about giving us something else to do so that we are more than buffing machines. And I'm all for more content and more options for us as professionals in this game. But from my point of view, they can't even fix the most basic parts of the dancer profession. How long would it take to completely revamp our role in the galaxy? Combat players can't wait 10 minutes for a shuttle. I shouldn't have to wait 2 or more years to have a meaningful role. I want fixes now. Not Soon but now. And the first fix that I want is for afk to go. After that I'm more than happy to talk about other roles we can have and that we want for as many years as it takes. I know that removing afk from our lives is not going to be the magic fix we've all been waiting for. But for me it's now become a chance for them to demonstrate that they are taking this seriously. Until they make that show of good faith, then I have no hope for our future andI will continue to make this all about me me me.
cheers,
Ikewe
Drygo wrote:
No. You are giving into that mentality. The truth is, if buffbots winked out of existence tomorrow, people would have to learn to deal with us in a more pleasant manner and respect what we bring to the table. If they didn't, they would have to go without. It doesn't matter if doc buffsare instantly applied, or you don't go searching for stuff right before a battle. It's all the same. All of these professions are respected because they have to be. Due to the afk buffbots, nobody has to respect us. So, even if we ask for the simplest of things...a little common courtesy, or to choose us over a buffbot when we're in the same Cantina and offer just as good or better services, people lash out at us. By game mechanics only, the buffbots are entertainers. Are they resented? No. They are praised and glorified. And, if they weren't allowed, those of us who actually want to play entertainers would be praised and glorified too.
I hope everyone reads this, because it's the mostclearly spelled out, concise explanation with what is WRONG with our profession I've ever read. I'd kiss you for this Drygo, but I don't want to give you girl cooties. 
Hell. I might kiss you anyway.
I admit I didn't play this game before Nov 3 but how does that relate to the current situation. I've seen it written here several times that buffs were added to give entertainers a sell-able commodity so they could make money, that implies to me that the vast majority weren't doing very well with only a performance to sell.
Today we are seeing a natural side affect of supply and demand. There was a demand for mind buffs, hence players entered the market to meet that demand. Prices went up and to overcome those prices people found a work around. Unfortunately that work around breaks the entire model because it gives full, unlimited, no cost access to the commodity. That lowering of the price to zero drove demand through the roof, to a point no reasonable live population could fulfill it. There is only one way to fix the situation regardless of how our mechanics evolve and that is to remove the free access that AFK play provides. If you change our mechanics to be totally passive then you aren't removing the free access and the only way we can control access, control price, and thereby control demand will cost us more effort than its worth. At that point we might as well say what the heck, there is no reliable way to make credits in this profession and just do like most of us do today and make the money another way. That is simply bad game design, no profession should be non-viable and in this game it costs credits to have access to the content. Giving our abilities away for free and continuing to depend on the generosity and gratitude of other makes the class non-viable regardless of the AFK situation.
The one place we agree is that bots have made our services free. The problem is that our class is not viable from a game balance perspective as long as our services can be given away. We have just as much investment in our profession as anyone else in this game. You have stated that our performance takes no cost compared to weapon smith or armor smith but in reality I would argue entertainer has the highest investment of any profession. My Armor smith, weapon smith, and chef friends spend a few hours each week buying resources, making schema's, loading factories, and stocking vendors then they are done till the vendor needs restocking. They then go off and do things they enjoy while the others buy their products. Conversely I have to be present for every single credit I make; if I'm off hunting on dantooine or running the little criminal missions on tatooine to get myself a pair of speakers I'm losing opportunities to make credits. Nothing in this game is real except time, and the time I have to invest to make credits as a performer is far above the time it takes any other profession I know. There is no way I want to continue to depend on the magnanimity and generosity of other players for my return on investment. No I want total control on who does and does not get access to my services so that I can set my prices and make a reasonable return on my invested time.
Drygo wrote:
Are they resented? No. They are praised and glorified.
Message Edited by PoetDancer on 03-07-2005 06:22 PM
Schardour wrote:
Drygo wrote:
Are they resented? No. They are praised and glorified.
I disagree. I don't think people praise buffbots because they can enhance the mind. They praise them because they're forced to find an entertainer to prepare, andbuffbots make that search incredibly simple for them. They give a self-service line or a drive-thru window to aretailer with a long queue. Admit it, you're not going to have the Bestine cantina manned 24 hours a day. You're not going to have the city cantina manned 24 hours a day. If buffbots are gone, yes, they'll be forced to respect us, at least when they're speaking directly to us. Doctors don't have as much of a problem with bots as we do. Don't you still get a little annoyed when you can't find a doc on your server that's willing to buff? When a player can't snap their fingers and have an entertainer at their service, they're going to be angry. That anger is going to be directed at the entertainer profession. I would love to be able to hold on to our buffing skills, but in reality, the focus of the game has shifted quickly from interdependence and time-sinks to fast-paced action and highly-interactive play. That's the reality. We can't change that, but we can adapt to it.
First off, I don't agree with the premise that people are forced to find an entertainer to prepare. You definitely don't need it in PvE, there are various foods that I use as a TKM in full composite with a 500 Twi'lek Focus and Willpower cap where my mind doesn't move, for example. And, the only reason it seems like people need it in PvP is because they are in abundance due to buffbots. Without the bots, people would be on an equal footing. And, the people that had the advantage would be the ones who knew how to treat entertainers with enough respect that many would choose to be at their beck and call.
I remember when the Image Designers first received the ability to migrate stats. I remember everybody being all afraid that people would hate Image Designers. Has that happened? No. Whenever my ID toon was in their migrating stats, everybody LOVED me. And, I have serious doubts that those people said bad things about me behind my back.
As far as not finding a doctor when I want it, yes that has happened. And, yes, I was frustrated. But, I most certainly *never* hated the entire doctor community for not buffing me. I consider that to be a mark of rational thinking. And, if, after say 6 months of getting rid of the buffbots, there are still some people who actually hate all entertainers, to them, I say, tough luck. They are part of the reason that we have suffered so long. And, I don't care who the heck gets mad at me. I can take it, and I can give it. And, I will not feel sorry for people that can't get buffs because of their disrespectful attitudes. People WILL learn that they have to show respect. And, those who do will be able to get buffs whenever they want them.
Now as far as changing and adapting, I'm more than willing to do that. And, I am more than willing to give up buffing. But, only AFTER we have been given something lucrative in return.
Drygo wrote:
And, I am more than willing to give up buffing. But, only AFTER we have been given something lucrative in return.
Schardour wrote:
Drygo wrote:
And, I am more than willing to give up buffing. But, only AFTER we have been given something lucrative in return.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating the surrender of skills without fair or favorable conpensation. I want to see our forums be able to shift focus to other possibilities though, and not marry ourselves completely to buffing as a central form of income or gameplay. Our revamp is coming soon, probably sooner than we think, so let'scontinue to throw new ideas out there.
The problem is, the way the original post was structured and the subsequent responses just sounded to me like it was yet another dancer who had just decided to give up. It's a sad state of affairs when people in a profession start saying they want to give up their skills because the game is so f'ed up that it causes more harm than good. 
But, I do realize what you are saying. And, I think many of us would have no problem getting rid of buffing if we had something that was equally lucrative to what buffing was *supposed* to be. Perhaps another thread should be started to focus onnon buffing ideas that can make us interdependent again.