Dancer Archive
Thread: If you want control, ask for more than the illusion of it.
Chessack
Thu Apr 07, 2005 7:44 am
#27
Panthu wrote:
Drygo wrote:There are ways to compromise and make things as little of a hassle as possible and increase the enjoyment of the game for both parties.Ok, if they said they were going to try to do that system again where the patron asked for a flo and if you did what they said, it gave a bonus... if they said that again, would that satisfy anyone's complaint?
Wow where was I when the offered this? Perhaps it was during the time when I wasn't reading these boards much just out of pure frustration.
I know I, for one, would like a system such as this. If I had seen this offer I would've definitely championed having this in some form.
The only problem I can see is how the patron would know what flourish to ask for. "Do that again," might be OK... but how many non-dancers know what the flourishes are or dances, to ask? I mean, some might be able to say, "Do that droid-dance thing where you wave at the crowd," but they sure as heck aren't going to know that is Poplock flourish 5 (or was, until it was, much to my dismay, taken out of the game -- that was one of my favorite flourishes in the entire dance repertoire, sigh).
So, there would be some question about what mechanics would be used to help the non-dancer choose which flo he wants to see -- it would not be reasonable to just have them shouting out random flourishes. But if perhaps they had a more subtle and easier to use system, it could work. Certainly it is an idea I would want to work with. As a possible example... if the player /applauds, /cheers, or /claps for a particular flourish, and I repeat it within 30 seconds, he gets some buffage... that could work. You could still AFK it, by the way... in almost any from. All the AFKer has to do is tell players his flourish order in a /shout macro, and they could "ask for" the flourish he is about to give... e.g. "/shout in 5 seconds I am going to do flootloose flourish 5, click on me and request that flourish for a buff..."
But I don't care about that, really. I'd just like to see something that makes actual interaction between the dancer and patron relevent (since this is supposed to be the socializer's class, and a socializer by Bartle's definition is all about player-player interaction) and gives the entertainer some control over whether he/she gives the buff. This system of responding to the flourish requests of the patron would do that, and I'd be all for it, at least in concept.
Let's remember that there really is very little argument over 90% of what the devs are offering here. It's not like most of us oppose buffing, or oppose the kind of buffing the devs are trying to give us, or anything like that. The main argument is the mechanics of how we give it. So before people freak out about how we are "flaming the devs" I don't think we really are. Most of us are not opposed to the concept or design of the new system, just, basically, the "UI" of how we are going to go about using it. So it's really not as negative as some people are making out. Oh, some individual POSTS may be negative... but the overall reaction of the community has been, "This buff system sounds nice but they need a better mechanic for executing it." That doesn't sound like flame-bait to me.
C
Ravanne_Esi
Thu Apr 07, 2005 7:45 am
#28
Hobbytla wrote:
So - a radial dial? When someone wants to "Start Watching or Listen" by clicking on your toon- they will instead send a request to you, just like the system message you get when trading. All you have to do is click on them and "Allow' (or whatever), and the "channel" is open.
I would prefer if this system message was accompanied by a specific sound though, so it's not lost in spam or while doing something else.
NO NO NO!
There should not be anyway for someone wanting a buff to cause a popup box of any sort to show up on my screen. This is totally unacceptable and will become a means of griefing entertainers. If someone wants a buff, ask me. If you are so anti-social you can't bring yourself to actually talk to me I don't want to provide you with a buff anyway.
Ravanne_Esi
Thu Apr 07, 2005 8:17 am
#29
Many people turn their sound down or off and in a busy environment system messages are easily missed, especially if you turn off on screen system messages. And if a player wants a buff what is wrong with them asking for it, then I can decide if I want to give it, I don't haqve to listen for some sound, I don't have to watch for some system message, I don't have to deal with any pop-ups. Ask for a buff, I do a /setperf and they get it. Simple, easy and takes very little programming time compared to all the other far more complex ideas being presented.
Hobbytla wrote:
A radial dial does NOT cause a pop-up!
That's why I suggested it. It gives a system message. Just like now.
When you choose "start listen or watch" there is a single system message floating at the top of the screen, saying "You startwatching Entertainer"
Only it would be "request to listen/watch".
When the entertainer sees this (I would again suggest a sound in addition, like the email and /tell, but a unique one), they do the same.
NO POP-UP WINDOWS.
Just a system message saying "So-and-so request inspiration/entertainment/whatever".
Yes, you have to target the player. But really... is that so much to ask? You expect them to come to a cantina to see you, tip you, and by your own admission, talk to you. Is targeting this player that much of a problem?
I think there are several different steps in making things better... this was ONLY about the interface or not.
Hobbytla
Thu Apr 07, 2005 8:19 am
#30
I'm not trying to force anyone to do anything they don't want. I just suggested something which would exclude AFKing and botting.
The /setperformance can still be macroed. The same way as a doc-bot targets their customers.
Tralmek
Thu Apr 07, 2005 8:53 am
#31
Targetting a player is not any problem for Dancers usually, even in a crowded cantina they can use /target playername to do that. Musicians, however, cannot always target people during their performance, and that is where the problem with having to target someone to perform a buff comes into place.
Personally I don't mind some form of UI, as long as it is really tiny and unobtrusive. Because of the social nature of the Entertainment professions, my screen is cluttered enough: My Spatial Chat box takes up about 1/4 of my screen, then I have Guild Chat, City Chat, and Entertainer Chat all floating around in seperate chat boxes. When I'm performing, I can't afford to have a giant UI like the Image Design one.
Anyway, I'm not going to even try coming down on one side of this issue or the other. As long as the new buffs don't interfere with one of the things I mentioned above, I think I'll be pretty satisfiedhowever they are applied.
Warryyr
Thu Apr 07, 2005 8:58 am
#32
Ravanne_Esi wrote:
Many people turn their sound down or off and in a busy environment system messages are easily missed, especially if you turn off on screen system messages. And if a player wants a buff what is wrong with them asking for it, then I can decide if I want to give it, I don't haqve to listen for some sound, I don't have to watch for some system message, I don't have to deal with any pop-ups. Ask for a buff, I do a /setperf and they get it. Simple, easy and takes very little programming time compared to all the other far more complex ideas being presented.
Hobbytla wrote:
A radial dial does NOT cause a pop-up!
That's why I suggested it. It gives a system message. Just like now.
When you choose "start listen or watch" there is a single system message floating at the top of the screen, saying "You startwatching Entertainer"
Only it would be "request to listen/watch".
When the entertainer sees this (I would again suggest a sound in addition, like the email and /tell, but a unique one), they do the same.
NO POP-UP WINDOWS.
Just a system message saying "So-and-so request inspiration/entertainment/whatever".
Yes, you have to target the player. But really... is that so much to ask? You expect them to come to a cantina to see you, tip you, and by your own admission, talk to you. Is targeting this player that much of a problem?
I think there are several different steps in making things better... this was ONLY about the interface or not.
OK, here's a proposal I wrote up in the Musician forums, since a lot of people don't like the mandatory pop-up window thing, which I totally understand.
Let's say we ditch the pop-up idea.
What other methods would be effective in telling us, the Entertainer, that someone wants a buff? A system message?
We know the /setperform function will send a system message to the person getting buffed that we direct our attention to them. Maybe something in the other direction?
The message could be distinct enough to use Chat phrase colorization to notice it easily. It could go in the Combat queue, or be a system message.
Maybe there could be a command that someone who enters the cantina can type, like /seekinspiration, and the messages get fired to the Entertainers in the area:
%TT looks like they're seeking some inspiration.
-or-
Someone walks into the cantina and types /seekinspiration. This makes their names flash different colors (similar to how the game now has the GCW function where names flash colors when they're changing from On Leave to Combatant to Special Forces). Only Entertainers can see the person flashing colors. It should be distinctive from the GCW color flashing. This tells anyone through their radar, or by putting their cursor over someone, that they're looking for inspiration.
An Entertainer then brings up the radial menu on that person and selects "Inspire."
Upon someone receiving inspiration, a UI screen pops up on the customer's end, telling the person:
- theirexisting buff's duration (0 if not buffed)
- the accumulatedduration for the buff they're currently receiving (current buff being applied- they can watch the duration fill up, so if they /stoplisten or /stopwatch they know what they get)
- a total accumulated buff duration amount (existing buff + buff currently being applied) and
- a Tip Amount box with a default amount set to 0.
If the Entertainer chooses, they may type /checkinspire and this will bring up a UI pop up on the Entertainer's end, telling them:
- the customer'sexisting buff's duration (0 if not buffed)
- the customer's accumulatedduration for the buff they're currently receiving (current buff being applied- they can watch the duration fill up, so if they /stoplisten or /stopwatch they know what they get)
- the customer'stotal accumulated buff duration amount (existing buff + buff currently being applied)
- Tip Amount box showing how much the customer will tip. This cannot be changed by an Entertainer.
SpaceCrazy
Thu Apr 07, 2005 8:59 am
#33
Tralmek wrote:Targetting a player is not any problem for Dancers usually, even in a crowded cantina they can use /target playername to do that. Musicians, however, cannot always target people during their performance, and that is where the problem with having to target someone to perform a buff comes into place.
Well you can actually target someone and /setperform or whatever playing the omni or nala. You just have to be quick about it and time it right between the flourish ticks and get the instrument targetted again before the next one. It's just a pain to try and do it.
Message Edited by SpaceCrazy on 04-07-2005 12:02 PM
Warryyr
Thu Apr 07, 2005 9:19 am
#34
Ravanne_Esi wrote:
Many people turn their sound down or off and in a busy environment system messages are easily missed, especially if you turn off on screen system messages. And if a player wants a buff what is wrong with them asking for it, then I can decide if I want to give it, I don't haqve to listen for some sound, I don't have to watch for some system message, I don't have to deal with any pop-ups. Ask for a buff, I do a /setperf and they get it. Simple, easy and takes very little programming time compared to all the other far more complex ideas being presented.
Hobbytla wrote:
A radial dial does NOT cause a pop-up!
That's why I suggested it. It gives a system message. Just like now.
When you choose "start listen or watch" there is a single system message floating at the top of the screen, saying "You startwatching Entertainer"
Only it would be "request to listen/watch".
When the entertainer sees this (I would again suggest a sound in addition, like the email and /tell, but a unique one), they do the same.
NO POP-UP WINDOWS.
Just a system message saying "So-and-so request inspiration/entertainment/whatever".
Yes, you have to target the player. But really... is that so much to ask? You expect them to come to a cantina to see you, tip you, and by your own admission, talk to you. Is targeting this player that much of a problem?
I think there are several different steps in making things better... this was ONLY about the interface or not.
The thing is, some means of a way for them to request a buff from you by NOT spamming the cantina further in Spatial (lousy stormtroopers) would work wonders for us.
No more people walking up and feeling like they're talking to zombie AFK'ers because folks are involved in group chat.
Something to allow people to signal they'd like to be buffed would be great. Let them initiate the process quickly and easily, without feeling compelled to have to /shout the second they walk into a cantina, or send a /tell and wait 2 seconds, get no response, then end up 2 planets away once I get done responding.
I'm not sure about all of you, but whenI get slammed with buff requests, it's EXTREMELY difficultfor me to keep up with group chat, guild chat, Spatial, AND persistant /tells one on top of the other.
The totally passive nature of the inspiration buffs resolves that, but I think some way for people to noticeably say "I need a buff" without having to necessarily say to you "I need a buff" would be better for both parties of the "transaction."
Tralmek
Thu Apr 07, 2005 11:23 am
#35
SpaceCrazy wrote:
Well you can actually target someone and /setperform or whatever playing the omni or nala. You just have to be quick about it and time it right between the flourish ticks and get the instrument targetted again before the next one. It's just a pain to try and do it.
Alot of Musicians aren't that quick about it, and even those of us who are don't have a 100% success rate. That doesn't prevent us from using /command playername, but any slash command is macroable and would defeat the purpose. I believe there was some discussion about usinga radial menu instead of a slash command, and when using our stealable instruments, pulling up radilal menus between tics is not going to be possible. 
Else-Whira
Thu Apr 07, 2005 12:05 pm
#36
My only problem with the passive approach is leaving our ability to earn in the hands of the people coming to see us. The reason why?
Entertainers will almost always have to be attractive and female to make it work. We have to exploit our feminity to seduce a predominantly male user base into believing falsely that a female is paying attention to them and deserves to be gifted as a show that the male user is a worthy potential suitor.
If the game rewarded our entertainer skill ala the RPG model (character skill being more important than player skill) the profession would still be attractive to those of us who crave a social friendly profession and also give us a means to enjoy the more gamer friendly rewards like being able to buy bobbles to impress our in game peers.
So my hope is that we can be 100% passive yet get 100% of our income from character skill via game means (missions or pay for time spent in the cantina animating).
The active approach is absolutely needed if in fact they mean us to be a support profession rather than the performance/social profession we have been playing as up until now. If we are meant to get our income from players we have to have a solid manner in which to control 100% of how our service is granted and what we will be paid.
Entertainers will almost always have to be attractive and female to make it work. We have to exploit our feminity to seduce a predominantly male user base into believing falsely that a female is paying attention to them and deserves to be gifted as a show that the male user is a worthy potential suitor.
If the game rewarded our entertainer skill ala the RPG model (character skill being more important than player skill) the profession would still be attractive to those of us who crave a social friendly profession and also give us a means to enjoy the more gamer friendly rewards like being able to buy bobbles to impress our in game peers.
So my hope is that we can be 100% passive yet get 100% of our income from character skill via game means (missions or pay for time spent in the cantina animating).
The active approach is absolutely needed if in fact they mean us to be a support profession rather than the performance/social profession we have been playing as up until now. If we are meant to get our income from players we have to have a solid manner in which to control 100% of how our service is granted and what we will be paid.
DanceRulez
Fri Apr 08, 2005 12:05 am
#37
Warryyr wrote:The thing is, some means of a way for them to request a buff from you by NOT spamming the cantina further in Spatial (lousy stormtroopers) would work wonders for us.
I've got a perfect idea for this. You know those settable titles that we have - like 'RP' or 'Helper' or 'Looking for Group'? Just add one more for 'Looking for Buff'. Then all someone has to do is turn that flag on, walk into a cantina, and let the entertainers contact him/her with buff offers without the person having to say a thing.
Hobbytla
Fri Apr 08, 2005 12:15 am
#38
DanceRulez wrote:
Warryyr wrote:
The thing is, some means of a way for them to request a buff from you by NOT spamming the cantina further in Spatial (lousy stormtroopers) would work wonders for us.
I've got a perfect idea for this. You know those settable titles that we have - like 'RP' or 'Helper' or 'Looking for Group'? Just add one more for 'Looking for Buff'. Then all someone has to do is turn that flag on, walk into a cantina, and let the entertainers contact him/her with buff offers without the person having to say a thing.
How about a flag saying "UNISPIRED" with a sad smiley behind?
The flag idea is actually a really good idea if you could come up with the right concept....
Ikewe
Fri Apr 08, 2005 12:18 am
#39
PoetDancer wrote:
That way, we maintain our interdependence, like Drygo wants. We get Ikewe credits. And we don't have to put up with 1337 jerks.
You know I have had enough. I have said it about 100 million times now and still you seem absolutely unable to understand. I don't want control for moneny. I don't want control for money. I don't want control for money. I don't want control for f'ing money already. What about that concept makes it so that you can't grasp it Sirii??? I want control simply becauseI want a visible purpose other than shaking mybehind for people to watch. Simple and to the point enough for you? Perhaps you are confused because I have stated that entertainers need to be economically viable. You see, unlike you, I want a profession that's fun for me and fun for those who have different views of what the entertainer profession is all about. Plenty of entertainers here have said "I want to get paid for buffing and I don't get tipped". Although I don't give a crap about that, I don't see why my goal should preclude them from getting what they want. So as long as the solution isn't to "force" people to pay for the buff, then I'm going to include that possibility in any mechanic I support. If the proposal is made for a system that requires payment and doesn't give me the option of requiring 0 credits, then I'm not going to support it. For the love of all humanity get that through your head before you again assign some desire behind what I want from the profession!
At least the devs have settled this debate forever. Inspiration buffs will be passive so you get to have the "invisible function" that you wanted. At some point in the unknown future of the profession some other activity will be put into place that will be active and will satisfy what I want. Thank the gods the Devs were able to see that both styles could be supported because clearly you sure as heck couldn't.
/addignore Sirii I am now doneresponding to you because apparently I am speaking a language so alien and incomprehensible to you that you decided to randomly assign motivations to my goals.