Dancer Archive
Thread: I demand BF healing in Camps and I'm right
NotYourAvgEwok wrote:
"Why should we allow SWG cantinas to become the same empty zombie farms?"
To put it bluntly, why should we care if they do? Out of the seven people I play with/talk to regularly, I met one of them in a cantina.
Please keep in mind that your subjective perceptionsare not necessarily reality. Things have changed in cantinas greatly over the last month to 6 weeks, and most of those changes have been negative, stemming from the widespread abuse of AFK Macroing. Before that, cantinas were the place to go to unwind, talk, swap gear and make friends. That atmosphere needs to be restored, and removing BF heal from the cantinas is a 100% sure-fire way to destroy the whole idea - EVEN if AFK macroing is taken away.
The mind buff is great. However, I wasn't aware there could only be one benefit for being a master dancer. I don't believe I've said anything about nerfing low level entertainers.
So you don't think pulling players away from the cantinas hurts the novices? Because that's exactly what this would do.
How on earth do you believe that allowing dancers at the master level to heal battle fatigue outside the cantina will somehow nerf the low levels?Allowing medics to heal outside the cantina hasn't nerfed the low level medics. People still go to the medcenter to be healed - because thereisn't always a doctor around when you need one, but you're practically guaranteed to find one in most medcenters.
Actually, the last 4 times I've been to a med center looking for a doc I haven't found one. If we adopted your approach, cantinas would be the same way. Docs have takent their skills to the field. So would entertainers.
Then how do you explain the great number of people that come into the cantina alone, needing healing?
Again, your perceptions do not necessarily translate into reality. I've taken several cross-galaxy surveys over the last 2 months, visiting cantinas in virtually every major city. What I've seen has been appalling - the majority of entertainers (I use the term loosely) who are in cantinas are really not there, but are macro-zombies. And I might see 2 or 3 players sitting on the floor healing, but hardly ever any more than that at one time. Not ONE of the people is carrying on a conversation - even after I get an invitation to the group, it's funereal. Why? Again, the AFK Macrozombies have destroyed the social ambience - the cantina is no longer a fun place to go.
Maybeyou don't grasp the idea. Why do you think there would be no interaction between entertainers and players? Nothing would have changed for dancers like yourself, because you probably would have gone to the cantina to find other dancers to group with. People would still have come to the cantina to get healed, because most don't carry a Master Dancer around with them and the cantina is the logical place to look for one. I fail to see how breaking the chains of the Master Dancer would have changed your experience in any significant way.
Yes it would, because my connections have come over a long stretch of time, gradually. They were forged at a time in the game when AFK macroing was rare and cantinas were always lively, chaotic places. I'm not interested in maintaining the status quo because I think the status quo frankly sucks. I'm interested in restoring cantinas to their rightful place as a social center in the game. Without them, we may as well cancel our accounts and go play EQ. It would have the same kind of social ambience.
"It would destroy the social nexus of SWG and further alienate entertainers from the rest of the player community...If nobody needs to find entertainers in cantinas anymore, why don't we just let Ranger camps heal BF and Squad Leaders heal mind wounds, replace dancers with NPCs to eliminate AFKing and then we can all scrap our entertainer skills and do something worthwhile?"
Are you being deliberately dense here? I'm not asking to be a jerk, I'm asking because I honestly can't tell. Because a group has a master dancer along, and doesn't need to go to the cantina, suddenly entertainers aren't worthwhile? That's quite a jump in logic.
Logic? You mean like the logic that tells you if you haven't seen it, it doesn't exist, or that a few anecdotal experiences constitute a trend?
Alllow me to repeat a point I made earlier because I think it is central to this debate: There are two approaches to any problem in this game. One approach is to improve the convenience of you and I, the individual players. The other approach is for the good of the game as a whole. Now, tell me how this whole camp-healing idea is good for the game again, rather than merely convenient for a few players?
Master Dancers already have left the cantinas - many of them have taken up combat skills (like me) or gone full-time with band tours (like me as well). They're not the ones I'm worried about. Anything you do to detract from the cantina's importance will hurt the lower level novices and upset the delicate game balance between hunt/kill, craftingand socialization. If I'm in a camp healing BF, that means 3 or 4 or 8 players won't be stopping by the cantina later giving the novices healing xp and tips. I could be selfish and say "why should we care if they do?" but I want what's best for this game, even if it's not convenient for me.
NotYourAvgEwok wrote:
You make the assumption that I'm basing my experiences on only my own perceptions. This is incorrect.
I asked you for data or at least some demographic basis for your opinion and you haven't offered any. What else can I assume?
I don't believe that the change in the cantina population are due to AFKs. Some people may have chosen to go elsewhere because of that, but hardly all, or even a majority. I believe that the servers have experienced a drop in population, mostly due to school starting and to people leaving the game (for a variety of reasons) after trying it out initially. You fail to take into account that six weeks ago, this game was new. It was the flavor of the month. Since then, some people have decided they don't like the flavor, and others have found their niche within the game (player cities - unofficial ones, for example).
I did some searching here and found a thread from the beginning of August (before the start of school, and before the alleged "exodus" was supposed to have begun), and the title of the thread was "Why are cantinas so empty?" It's interesting to note that AFK Macroing was one of the major problems we faced at that time, though less so than now. Certainly, AFKers aren't the only reason it's happened, but nobody can claim it has helped the situation one bit.
As for Player cantinas, I only wish they were a factor. On Chilastra at least, they've struggled to gain visibility and conduct any kind of consistent business. You can't compete with public cantinas (or players finding their own means of healing) when you're only open on weekends. Maybe Player Cities will change that when they're in place, but meanwhile private cantinas have not succeeded in replacing the public ones as social centers.
I haven't had any problems finding doctors in any of the major cities.If we take your subjective perception as reality, then I wouldn't even have bothered to go to the med center, because I would believe that they aren't there. Even in the less populated cities, during peak playing times, I've nearly always found doctors.
I'm not the only one who continually finds empty med centers. It's a very common complaint. Whether you've been able to find a doc here or there or not the fact remains that they are not as readily available as we'd like. And that is my whole point about entertainers and cantinas.
The game as a whole is less populated, Sinda. The cantinas are not the cause, they are a symptom of a larger problem that exists within the game itself, one that has very little to do with AFK macroing.
I disagree. While AFK Macroing is not the only reason, it does have a major impact on the atmosphere. I'm still perplexed that, if the game is as un-populated as you claim, why I still lose lairs to marauding griefers and my hunting groups always run into other large groups on a regular basis, even in remote places like Yavin or Dathomir.
You'd like to see cantinas restored as the social center of the game - that's fine, but the system didn't work.
So, since the system "didn't work", do we just throw up our hands and tear up the blueprint? Or do we try to fix it? I started a thread looking for positive ideas 3 weeks ago (http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=dancer&message.id=5530&highlight=ideal+cantina#M5530
-- we need to keep thinking of positive ways to enhance the health of cantinas instead of asking for changes that will ultimately destroy them. I think much can be done to draw players back to these venues instead of thinking of ways to pull people away from them.
Allowing master dancers to heal outside the cantina would not change anything for probably 80-90% of players
More bogus statistics. What it WILL do is hurt the novices who are still back in the cantinas. Their business will not improve, and the inflow of new bloodthat keeps the entertainment professions vital will gradually wither away. What you're suggesting would only be for convenience sake, not an enhancement in gameplay.
All you will have accomplished is to have the entire group make a run back into town, so that you (who was already present at the time) can heal them in the cantina. Tell me, what does that accomplish? How does this benefit the community?
You're still inventing artificial scenarios to support your point. Most of the time I'm one of the first people who has to leave for the night (family duties, career). Other times, the group splits up for other reasons -- I can't remember once when a hunting group of mine has ever returned to town as a group to get healed up after a fight. Does it happen? Certainly, but don't pretend that it's the norm.
Furthermore, this is still unnecessary muddying of the waters. Whether Masters go to cantinas or not is moot -- the issue is whether cantinas can stillplay a necessary role in the game. The centerpiece of that role, as designed, is Battle Fatigue which can be healed by any novice entertainer in a cantina. The moment you dilute that function and give it to field camps, Rangers, or Squad Leaders, you are taking away the basic reason novice entertainers keep playing - there goes their entertainment heal xp, their tips, and their interest in playing an entertainer. And there goes our profession.
Sinda, despite all your arguments, you still have not offered - at least to me - one shred of credible evidence that allowing master dancers to heal outside the cantina will destroy the cantina as a social setting (more than it already is).
You're very quick to dismiss any arguments that I might make, so I'm asking you. Tell me straight up how allowing a Master Dancer to heal outside the cantina will destroy the cantinas. Explain to me how this will affect all those players who aren't master dancers, and who don't play with one. Tell me how Joe Rodian, who is soloing missions in Coronet, is going to get his battle fatigue healed if he doesn't go to the cantina and he isn't playing with a Master Dancer.
You tell me that I'm inventing artificial scenarios when I use examples of the way the game is played by myself and my friends and apply them to you. You tell me that if you heal your group's battle fatigue in a camp, then they won't go to the cantina - then say that you usually quit your group early. Do these people then all just sign off when you do? Or do they continue to play without you? Because it seems to me if they still play, then they'll still need healing, and if you aren't around, they'll have to go somewhere.
From what you say, I can only assume that your experience on Chilastra are VASTLY different than mine on Kettemore,
"We rangers are trying to get this put in for the field base camps (the really big camps) so we actually have a reason to use them."
I have no problem with BF heals being possible in the really big camps, but apart from that, we need to have some way of getting people to interact with cities. The BF heal is the only thing keeping the cities active. If BF can be healed in camps, then cities are going to beuseless as soon as the space features come into the game. If anything, I think there need to be more reasons to go into cities. I don't understand why cities don't have residences that players can rent as shops etc. Having to go outside the major cities for goods seems kinda ridiculous to me.
God Beery, sometimes your posts are so dumb they amaze me. I'm neither a PvPer nor a "hunter first" whatever that means. I have both a combat and a non-combat profession. Unlike you, I'm not arguing heatedly to improve my dancer/tka in combat. I don't argue that because people in Star Wars movies visited a cantina, every player should be forced to do the same. I'm not suggesting we take away abilities of one class and give them to another. All of these you have pushed for.
If you can't come up with a decent argument on how allowing a master dancer to heal battle fatigue in the field will kill the cantinas, and give me some decent examples of situations that would commonly occur in the game to illustrate this, then spare me your feeble attempts to catagorize me.
NotYourAvgEwok wrote:
You're very quick to dismiss any arguments that I might make, so I'm asking you. Tell me straight up how allowing a Master Dancer to heal outside the cantina will destroy the cantinas. Explain to me how this will affect all those players who aren't master dancers, and who don't play with one. Tell me how Joe Rodian, who is soloing missions in Coronet, is going to get his battle fatigue healed if he doesn't go to the cantina and he isn't playing with a Master Dancer.
Simple math: Let's say there are 1,000 hypothetical players who need BF healing on a given night.
Compare two scenarios:
Scenario 1: The existing situation. The only places to heal BF is in cantinas,hotels or PA halls (we haven't mentioned the latter yet, but I don't think they're much of a factor). If/when these players accumulate enough BF to need healing they will seek out one of these locations where there are entertainers performing because that is the only way they can remove the BF. Non-cantina locales aside, we're looking at 100% of them going to a cantina at one point or another.
Scenario 2: Assume SOE decides to allow BF healing in camps. Further, let's assume that 1/4 to 1/2 of the players manage to have a Master entertainer along with them on a hunt. Out of our 1,000 players with Battle Fatigue, we are left with 500 to 750 players who might actually go to a cantina. The others have no need to do so because their BF has been taken care of in the field. It's convenient, sure, but we have immediately reduced the potential traffic to the game's social mainstay establishments.
Now, more realistic numbers might be 10,000 to 30,000 or more players per night (scattered over all servers) and perhaps even more. The vast majority of these players will be healed by novices, not Masters, because the novices are the ones in the cantinas trying to earn tips and entertainment heal xp. If even 10% of these players no longer go to the cantinas, our novices have lost 1-3,000 customers per night. If my 25% number is closer, we're looking at drastically reduced cantina traffic and a serious blow to the entertainment profession.
Beery, I've never gotten the idea that NotYourAverageEwok was a PvPer or that he didn't care about dancers. Simply because he and I disagree strongly does not mean he's anti-dancer. Frankly, I have more respect for people who are passionate about ideas and can eloquently defend them and NYAE has explained himself well, for the most part.
(Here's hoping you're a he and not a she ).
I think that there is a few valid points here....somewhere...let me find them again....
Yes, Cantina's are a wonderful Social center...I've met many good friends inside with my Entertainer...
However, I would like to go out and about occasionally with them to help heal/entertain/allroundkickbutt. The BF camp idea has it's merits....If the camp is made by a higher level char--a base camp as it were for the whole hunting party. Entertainer could hunt with the group, camp is thrown down and viola instant "cantina." Entertainer heals, party hunts again....oh, we've gotta go bank/sell/medical center....Entertainer offers skills in local town cantina/theater....party goes back out...with or without entertainer...
Entertainers could even be "hired" by hunting parties...with personal protection guaranteed if the hunt is leveled too high for ent....Entertainers would be best found in Cantinas for hiring...*Bounty Hunter heals his wounds in cantina before heading out with rest of party*
Yes the social aspect needs to be kept in the game...We don't need to lose cantinas or theaters entirely...we just need to expand somewhat...even doctor's can do more healing with their medbots outside a med center than i can do wasting time waiting for a shuttle....
Fighting is not for everyone (I only picked up the skills as a diversion). Some people prefer staying in one spot and talking to and meeting people. That is fine, the Cantina/Theater is made for that. The hunting parties would LFG entertainer....one or two entertainers for up to a group of 20 would not mess with the Cantina Society that much....which is fine for the Entertainers that want to move/travel/seethesights/earnloot/faction/etc/etc....
With the mind buffs, it would not actually be a bad thing for Ents to pick up BF heal in some types of camp. Would make us more useful to those who think we are not worth the effort....Why else would one walk around with 200+ BF??? But, again it would only be those Ents that chose to leave the Cantina for an adventure...
*shrug* I know that this is not an easy issue to solve...there is not going to be right or wrong in this issue....we just have to be patient and see what develops as the game evolves!
Kattiffi Nix
Master Entertainer, Novice Dancer/Musician, Novice Marks(wo)man and Scout
meeuki wrote:
it's about tips because that is the only reason dancers want people in the cantinas. everything about getting rid of afkers, not having mind healing go to another class, and bf healing in camps is all about empowering people who want to stay in the cantinas and be tip nazi divas.
That's the mostnaive and uninformedperception of entertainers that I've seen yet. The only people I ever see begging, asking,oreven mentioning tips are the AFK Macrotainers that have "/shout tip the entertainers!" in their macros.
If I, and indeed a large majority of the population, wanted to be rich, we sure as *bleep* wouldn't start an entertainer.
I'm about as "entertainer" as you can get (see below). On the rare occassion I even need credits, I go out fencing on some missions, and I thoroughly enjoy doing so.
There already somany places where the entertainer's customersare very few and far between. One important thing to remember is that an entertainer needs customers and needs to heal them in order to advance in skill. Granted, allowing BF-camp healing will not draw all of the customers away from cantinas. But it will draw many of them away.
Compounding that is that, unlike a medic, a entertainer would serve no purpose during the long stretches in a combat group between camp settings if they chose to be an entertainer who sought out groups to heal instead of one who remained in the cantina. They would be forced to pick up a combat or medic skill if they wanted to have something to do. The devs have been good about deterring dependencies like that.
Finally, if BF-camp healing were allowed, the purpose of an entertainer would be diminished. Many people don't have the skill points available, but many people do. A combatant would pick up novice entertainer skill and then we'd never see his friends in the cantina again.
I do, however, like the suggestion the ranger mentioned above. Allow BF camp healing in large camps only. It's a good suggestion because it solves two classes' problems at once. Maybe even allow only master dancer or master musician to BF heal even then. It would provide an incentive to allow a master to explore the world with non-entertainer friends, if they so desired. I can still see how it could lead to the problems above, though.
I think what we would need, Sinda, is a relatively accurate portrayal of the number of Master Dancers (and I guess Master Musicians) that are out there. As far as I know, SOE has only released the fact that Dancer is one of the most mastered profession (which could mean that out of 10 people who are dancers, 9 of them chose to Master rather than just dabble). That doesn't give us any real idea of how many Master Dancers/Musicians exist.
I do think that 1/4 of the population being healed outside the cantinas is too high an estimate, though. Sure, the larger, more organized groups might include a dancer, but for those who hunt alone or who don't have access to a dancer (because they don't know one, their friend is offline, they just didn't bother, the dancer is off doing something else), these players would still need to go to a cantina to be healed.
When I am in a cantina healing, the overwhelming majority of players coming in to be healed are alone. They aren't coming in strictly for battle fatigue healing (which, in my opinion, doesn't accumulate all that fast anyway) but instead are coming in for the healing of mind wounds. For all of these players, and the lower level entertainers who heal them, nothing would change.
If the hunting party already has Master Dancer along, then haven't the lower level entertainers already lost their business? If they accompany the group to the cantina, then they (the master dancer) is the one healing them, not the lower-levels. If the dancer quits early (as you said you often did) the group will either disband to do their own thing, or continue to hunt - either way, they will still need mind healing - which will lead them to the cantina.
I think this would only affect a very small portion of the population, in fact - a neglible amount. Without any hard data on how many Master Dancers/Musicians are already taking part in group hunts, however, and how many people they travel with, it's impossible to know. I'm basing my opinion on what I have observed while in the cantinas of Corellia, Tatooine, and Yavin, on the Starsider and Kettemoor servers.