Dancer Archive

I understand this is a delicate subject and as a ranger myself who's girlfriend is a master dancer I'd like to make a comment about exactly what the rangers have asked for. (Rangers, hope I'm not stepping on any toes!).

The first thing I'd like to say is that I empathise strongly with SInda and the plight of the cantina's in general. I know my girlfriend is becoming sick of the "AFK macro-zombie's" and this does detract from the social experience of the cantina's and cities in general. In my personal opinion, any move to allow BF healing in camps would have to be accompianied by fixes to allow cantina's to once again become a social hub. (I'm sure the removal of afk macroer's would have to be one of those fixes.)

I'll come back to this point in a moment.

From what I have read on the ranger forum, no one has asked for BF-camp healing to be an innate camp ability. Infact, the opposite is true - I believe most rangers would be happy for it to behard to achieve a camp of that status. A couple of things come into play. One is what has been asked for,the otheris my own opinion on how to make it even harder.

Firstly, rangers are asking for modular camps. This would be open only to high level rangers (master only, in my opinion) and requires components crafted by other professions in order to function. In the case of BF, whether that component would be a sound system or instrument crafted by a master musician (maybe again requiring other profession-dependant components?) or a lighting set-up crafted by master dancers (or a stage?) -that's forus and the developers to work out. The real point is that it would be difficult to achieve, would promote profession interdependancy (another key premise the game is based on), and most importantly - would be very rare. It's not like there are that many master rangers anyway. (I know how hard it is to find training on Lowca!)

The second requirement would be that in order for BF healing to function within a camp, a master dancer or (and?) master musician would need to be present, maybe would even require a certain size group to be effective and would almost certainly be slower than if it were done in a cantina. This is my personal opinion but, with acceptance from the entertainers, I'm sure most rangers wouldn't object to the idea. As I said, most of us are happy for this to be hard to achieve, and a relatively rare occurance. It's gives a sense of pride if one can build a camp of this calibre.

The idea of BF healing being available in camps is not intended to hurt the entertainer professions in any way, nor is it designed to discourage the social aspect of cities or cantina's. If any of youwish to hop over to the ranger forums and read any of the posts on the subject, you'll find that we're being very careful to ensure that this enhances all of our respective classes, not take anything away.

In order to ensure that this happens properly I'll go back to my earlier statement about the afk'ers. One thing we wouldhave to avoid is giving people more reason to afk-macro their way to master. I strongly agree (and remember, my girlfriend isa master dancer and is one of the few who hasnever afk-danced) that this ability needs to be removed from the game. It's not just enternainers who are affected by this, but crafters and hell, I even saw a post asking how to afk macro-camp... But that's another topic.

Yes, it's about convenience -but only for large, well equipped parties who want an extended expedition toone of the advanced planets. You certainly wouldn't be seeing one of these thrown up outside the major cities! It's also about profession interdependance - the modules should be hard to make and possibly require the input of the dancers and musicians if that's something you'd want. It's about adding something to master status and about giving dancers, musicians and rangers something else to offer the player base as a whole.

Most of all, it's about giving you the choice. My girlfriend loves the dancer profession and enjoys it even more now that she's master. She's starting to do the player-clubs too, and we both agree something needs to be done about cantina's. Don't treat these things as seperate issues. Please don't block a potential addition to all our professions because of the problems within cantina's and cities in general. We need to work together to fix these issues. Take the idea of making cantina's more attractive and allowing dancers and musicians this extra role hand in hand. They must happen together if BF in camps is to happen at all.

But give those dancers and musicians who haveworked for their master status the option of playing this extra role. It won't force you into combat-support, it'll give you a chance to go out and do that occasionally if you wish. I know my girlfiend would like to offer that service occasionally, but she still wants to do the club rounds and she still spends lots of time in the cantina. And I believe many players would do the same. Make it rare, make it hard, and it won't have a huge impact on the playerbase as a whole.

I've probably said enough. But please, Sinda and every other dancer and musician out there, think about this in the spirit it's meant. I believe it would benefit all of us in the long run.

Many thanks.

DK.

Drake_Khoren deserves 5 stars for such a thoughful post.

I mentioned in another thread a while ago that a way to improve the entertainer class was to get them more involved in the rest of the game. Yet, in my post above I'm making points about how getting them more involved in the game can be a detriment.

Thinking about it during dinner, I don't like a lot of the arguments I've made in my post above. I realized that the divided entertainers is already happening and will happen a lot more with the introduction of player cities. I also realized that people are already using novice entertainer to clear mind wounds in camps without having a "real" entertainer.

You're right, there is a balance here, and there are several individually connectedissues that should be tackled one at a time. The problem is if you tackle them one at a time (and months apart), you lose the balance. I think that's why many people are looking for one cure-all solution.

It's true, it's very useful that my combat medic guild brother can play the slitherhorn, because without him we'd have to go all the way back to a city just to drop mind wounds.

-- YP

I believe it's vital that we have the support of the dancer and musician communities if we're to push forward these abilities for high level camps and the advantages it will offer the playerbase as a whole -although I'm no official (or even unofficial) spokesperson for rangers or anyone else. In any event I thank you for your response Sinda, it's much welcomed. My thanks also to everyone else who has responded.

I really want all your views on this. From master to novice. How would you see BF healing in camps affecting you and cantina life in general if it were to be implemented in a manner or spirit similiar tothe oneI describe?

I haven't yet floated this on the musician forum, although I have reposted everything I said in this thread on the ranger forum. Give me some more feedback that I'm on the right track and I'll put it over to the musicians as well.

Many thanks.

DK.

How would you see BF healing in camps affecting you and cantina life in general if it were to be implemented in a manner or spirit similiar tothe oneI describe?

Drake, I don't have a problem with enhancing the mind-heal abilities of high level camps. However, I'm less sure I support healing any kind of BF in the field. Perhaps if it's suitably limited - both in terms of heal rates and the skill levels required to create such a thing - it wouldn't be too problematic. But as I've explained in other posts, anything which detracts from the role of the cantina will add to their ultimate demise as the social centers of the game.

Maybe if SOE put into place some other features first which improved cantinas -- things like real stages (so performers don't crowd around the doors), bartender consignment for player chefs, more interactive NPCs and so forth it would be less of an issue.And, of course, elimination of AFK macroing. But as they stand right now, cantinas are marginal game venues and anything at all which seeks to replace their function will push them into complete uselessness. And with the cantinas goes anyone starting a new entertainer. The long term effects on our profession would be negative.

Sinda, I agree with you completely and as I say in my post, it's my belief that this ability (BF healing) should only be implemented as or after the problems with the cantina's are solved. I really don't want to remove the usefulness of the cantina in the game and I'd love to see the idea's you mentioned implemented as a way of ensuring they achieve their potential. It is also the reason why I believe that even with any fixes to the cantina, it should still be a difficult staus to achieve.

In short, the more of us there are pulling in the same direction, the better our chances of getting want we all want. (I know, I'm a hopeless optimist!)

If the entertainer communitycan support the ideaon the premise that thethat cantina issues are resolved, then it becomes easier to draw the support of others in helping to get them fixed. I don't believe that each class should look out purely for it's own, by tying certain issues together weincrease our numbers and actually offer more comprehensive solutions to the developers. After all, they want to keep as many people happy as possible, right?

Now rangers and entertainers couldn't be much farther apart on the spectrum. Most entertainers live the city life, whereas most rangers strive to be as far from it as possible. Get these two wildy different types asking for the same things and maybe, just maybe, we have a better chance of being heard.

My original reply to this topic came totally out of the blue, but with the right kind of support here I can try to start pushing the rangers to thinking more about your concerns. Maybe it's just a pipedream, and maybe I'm wrong, but hey - we've all got to dream, right?

Respectfully,

DK.

Alright then...

Suggestions for Battle Fatigue Healing outside of the cantina:

1. Limited to Master Dancers and Master Musicians only.

2. Possible only in Ranger camps of any level, but the higher level camps provide a faster rate of healing (a Master Dancer/Musician must still be present and performing however). I think the actual combination of only a Master Dancer/Musican and a Master Ranger camp would be too rare to really be useful. Maybe allow lower level dancers/musicans to heal in Master Ranger camps. (So in other words, you'd need a dancer and a ranger, and one of them must be a Master in order to heal battle fatigue in a camp).

Suggestions for improving Cantinas:

1. Elimination of pets from cantinas (I know some people would prefer to allow only small pets in cantinas, I don't know if this is possible. I would prefer no pets to all pets, and I know many people feel the same).

2. Reorganization of space so that there actually exists an area for groups to perform in.

3. Food and drink crafting stations behind the bar, and benefits to the chef class for working in a cantina. Also, possibly benefits to food/drink consumption if performed in a cantina.

4. A sort of randomly generated "rumor mill" where NPC characters in the cantinas occasionally offer items of real interest to players, including game knowledge that isn't in the manual (So-and-so says, "I hear that Princess Leia is somewhere on Corellia" or "Did you know that riflemen take twice as much damage in melee if they're holding their rifle?" You know, stuff that maybe you don't know, but you should.)

5. A message board system, where you can leave notes and read notes from other players. ("We're hunting on Lok...need a medic bad! Send /tell to Sam") The messages could be purged once a day, or when the person leaving the message signs out, or something.

Have a seat next ot Beery, Starlance, I'm sure the two of you will have lots to talk about. First of all, I don't avoid the cantinas - I dance in them quite often, in fact, though I am now a Master Dancer and have maxxed out both the dance and the healing XP. However, if I'm with a group of friends and we are having a successful hunt - or simply taking a long trip, such as to the Jedi Temple on Yavin - then I don't want to worry about battle fatigue.

If battle fatigue healing in cantinas is the ONLY THING keeping the entertainer professions from a long slow death, then I suggest you come up with ways to fix the profession, as obviously it's broke beyond measure. Hopefully you'll waste lots more time explaining how this is going to happen.

Your simple economic model leaves a lot to be desired. Do you honestly believe that the dancer profession will be overwhelmed with people going for Master Dancer simply so they can heal battle fatigue outside the cantina? ("Got to surrender those Creature Handler points, Master Dancer is just too valuable at 104 points topass up") No one is going to spend 104 points for Master Dancer just to heal battle fatigue outside the cantinas - not when they can spend 15 and heal inside a house, or spend 0 and heal inside a cantina, where Entertainers are already present.

There is no ideal number of Master Dancers to service the groups out there in the field, because too many of those are groups of one, each of whom would require their own personal Master in order to avoid the cantina.

The message boards are adream idea. WIth in-game mail system already in place, you'd think the database could handle it.Seems like just a minor tweak (although what do I know?!).

Think about it, advertise your PA events, organise hunting parties, arrange sales, trades and the hiring of professions for certain jobs. In short, anything you'd normally do here on the forums - but in game, where it belongs!

DK

[quote]You're very quick to dismiss any arguments that I might make, so I'm asking you. Tell me straight up how allowing a Master Dancer to heal outside the cantina will destroy the cantinas. Explain to me how this will affect all those players who aren't master dancers, and who don't play with one. Tell me how Joe Rodian, who is soloing missions in Coronet, is going to get his battle fatigue healed if he doesn't go to the cantina and he isn't playing with a Master Dancer.[/quote]

More than just destroying the cantina, it will, over time, destroy the entertainer professions. How so? Many have already agreed that Dancer/Musician are not difficult professions to master if one goes the route of AFK Macroing. So attaining that level of skill is within the grasp of those who just want to get those healing skills ASAP. The number of Masters -will- grow until the need for them is filled. That is, in essence, a matter of simple economics. The problem being, if Masters can heal BF on the go, the balance of the game will shift, over time, toward an ideal number of Masters to service the groups out there in the field. It will take time, and will never truly reach this number, but that shift will be only natural, given the demands and wishes you (those arguing for BF healing in the field) yourselves are voicing. Supply shifts to meet demand.

A couple facts about Dance and Music professions:

1) Both Dance/Music and Entertainment Healing XP are -required- in order to progress beyond the level of a Novice Entertainer. You can't reach either Master Entertainer or either Novice Dancer or Musician without the Entertainment Healing XP. The combat types who feel so put upon for being dependant upon entertainers to heal their BF are not the only ones who are dependant in this relationship. All entertainers pursuing Dance/Music are dependant upon those selfsame combat types in order to be able to progress in their professions.

2) Master Dancers/Musicians have no further need of Dance/Music or Ent. Healing XP.

3) If things shift toward an environment where Masters are providing the majority of the healing as the simple economic model suggests, Ent. Healing XP will be wasted largely on those who have no need of it whatsoever and Novice Entertainers will find themselves unable to get the XP needed to ever progress beyond Novice Entertainer. The longer this goes on, the more people there will be who are unable to progress and give up on the entertainer professions, until virtually no new Dancers/Musicians are evident.

That's why and how letting Masters heal BF outside of cantinas will hurt Novices. Yes, it's a hypothetical situation, but the basic economic structures of supply and demand are the governing factors, and the demand will be for these 'super-healer' Masters you want to create, as the whole point is that YOU want to get away from having to go to the cantina. For you to demand so strongly that you have this benefit only shows how strongly you wish to avoid the cantina scene, and to say that people will still be going to the cantinas to heal in light of that if it is granted is double-talk, plain and simple, IMO. If you didn't want to avoid the cantina so badly, you wouldn't be here in the Dancer forum wasting our time with your arguments. If this ability is granted, you won't be in the cantinas, and the entertainer professions will all be on the route to a long slow death.