Dancer Archive

Thread: Cross-post from entertainer forum (a dev speaks)

Mystyrys
Sat Jun 18, 2005 10:35 am
#27

I dunno. I'm willing to wait and see how it shakes out. It might be a dramatic change, but a welcome one. If there's no hostage situation with BF healing involved in entertaining anymore, then people will come to cantinas to be... entertained! It happens. It used to happen a lot. Until the holocron grindand AFKers appeared.


People panicked that IDs would be useless fluff when they took away stat migrations. To be honest, I have had a lot more fun and enjoyment as an ID now SMs are gone. People come to me because they want to! Not because they have to. It's so much more fun (and profitable) now than it was. No more grumpy, rude, hurry up I gotta go grind customers anymore. Just people happy to see me that want a little "entertainment" in their game.


Can't you imagine it could change the same way for dancers and musicians? Wouldn't you rather people want to come see your shows, and ignore the boring macrobots than to be held hostage to the BF system and forced to come watch you and they don't care what you do or how you do it as long as it's as fast as you can do it?


*sits patiently and waits to see iftheorbit of the entertainerworld go all wonky*


Xian i Master Image Designer i k R Master Dancer : Musician : Entertainer R

Lira'a R Teras Kasi Master k Master Dancer R





AFK is not OK
Clicky - AFKers are disruptive to my Gameplay - Clicky
**************************************************
Qitu &Tabu
T
ailor &Entertainer
**************************************************
*May your future endeavors prove to be
interesting and rewarding experiences that
fulfill your dreams and enrich your life.*

Chessack
Sat Jun 18, 2005 10:58 am
#28


Cindal wrote:

There has to be a better way. Perhaps it is giving a bonus to the entertainer who is ATK which cuts BF healing time in half or individual buffs or whatever they choose to leave in the system.





I agree. The easiest way to make sure entertainers have to be at keyboard is to make whatever benefit you give turn off when you are AFK for more than X minutes (what X is, would be up to the devs to decide I guess). They need to make it so that AFK buffing is impossible. The reason you have to spam people and tell them where live entertainers will be, is that people just assume entertainer == AFK now. That's the devs' fault for letting this problem fester for 2 years. Changing BF into Buffs will do nothing about that without ALSO getting rid of AFK as a viable system for being an entertainer.

However, I still think taking BF healing and most importantly healing XP out of the game, at this point, is about all that's left for them to do. The Entertainer professions have been so wrecked in the last two years that they sure can't keep things as they are. What're they going to do instead? Give people 10x the BF? That won't cure buff-botting, though it will make the heal grind less painful -- at the cost of ticking off everyone who isn't an entertainer and making even more ill-will fester between Ents and everyone else.

The devs have a huge amount of work to do to fix entertainer. The BF change is, if anything, a beginning, certainly not an end point. And they have a really BIG problem, which is that their neglect and mistreatment of the Entertainer profs for the last 2 years has caused 90% of the people who liked the idea of them, to quit in frustration. The result is that now, even if they did something amazing to Entertainers, there wouldn't be enough of us to service all those cantinas anymore. How do they solve this? I'm not sure if they can... SOE has a really horrible reputation in the gaming world (it's basically considered, by everyone I know, the worst MMO company of them all), and their rep with socializer types is even worse. Most of those who quit are not coming back... so where will they get new people from? I'm not sure.

What I am sure of, is that things need to change, and taking BF out and putting in a more positive role for dancers sounds like it might work. At least, it's worth a try. As you point out, what's going on right now, is not working at all.

C



=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Dejah Thoris
Dancer, Musician, Image Designer
Kor Spera, Corellia, Naritus
FuschiaD
Sat Jun 18, 2005 11:53 am
#29






DoMakk wrote:
I am so likely to accidentally equip my fake armor and fake weapons for a fight...it's not funny.






ROFL I think I'd have to laugh.






~*~ F U S C H I A D A R K W A L K E R ~*~
Yes, I'm a respec Jedi. Get over it.
~*~ A V A D I H A L O N A - S O E P ~*~
Entertainer For Life - COMPNOR Eye Candy

"You don't really rank around here unless you've been flamed by Oben, trolled by Mono, set straight by Geen, got caught in a love triangle between Cherry and Anoq, had your house decorated by Kipera, hugged by Esin, fondled by Fuschia, had IG respond with something inane and nonsensical, or at the very least been (a.) asked "can I have your stuff" or (b.) been accused of being a Todd by any number of random Tarquinian posters." --TalonKarrdeTN/Tyndaleon


Chiper12
Sat Jun 18, 2005 11:58 am
#30

Nice to see devs talking to people
PoetDancer
Sat Jun 18, 2005 12:26 pm
#31




This isn't about those things, so long ago.And frankly, it was probably the worst idea I ever came up with. Haphazard and ill formed in response to a inquiry, before I fully understood the heart of what this class was about. Because upon reflection, do I or any of us really want to choose a dance based on effect rather than choose the dance we like the best? More importantly than that, how does this encourage the active playing of this class? All it does is give a bunch of alts an incentive to macro aplethora of different dances while unattended.


But this isn't about buffs. This is about BF. The one mechanic that many of us, both patrons and performers alike, have absolutely no problem with. It is intuitive. Stress free. Easy to administer and receive. And most importantly, provides everyone with a great deal of flexability in augmenting the experience with improvisation and interactivity. Not programmed and contrived interactivity of /watching before /setperform, or garbage like that, but the improvisational tools that can only come from a live player. BF works. Buffs, quite frankly, have a history of problems.


Frankly, who ever had the notion that BF had to go? Certainly not I. Was it YOU?


(PS: I added the smileytounges because you like them so much )



Message Edited by PoetDancer on 06-18-2005 02:26 AM

Message Edited by PoetDancer on 06-18-2005 02:28 AM



Madame Sirii Ajaan
August 2003-September 15, 2005
"There is a difference between being /watched and being WATCHED."
Reachwind
Sat Jun 18, 2005 12:46 pm
#32

Sirii is 100% correct. Taking BF out of the game kills the game for one particular type of entertainer and one only. That's the entertainers like Sirii that rely not on dances or music or even game mechanics at all to earn their income but person to person interaction. Sirii dances just like anyone else, she makes the same lights completes the same flourishes... What she does that not many other entertainers can even think of doing is truly entertain and entice you. She does it by what she says, by what she wears and by how she emotes. When people come up to her and say, "Sirii give me a ____ buff" they completely take her out of the game. The bots and the players that pride themselves on crunching numbers can always do things like min max buff times, make the process faster and easier, BETTER. They can't entertain though and they can't adapt to a play style that never interested them in the first place.

Battle fatigue is the hook to get people into Sirii's game. Take it away from her and she won't have a game left to play because having to drop out of entertaining to give these functions and making her compete with a player character alt just doesn't and work. We have a year and a half of buff bots as evidence of that. I saw Sirii play with my own eyes, we played and danced together. The buff bots did the buffing, but people were drawn to her charisma and feminine charms and took the money they would have given to the bot and handed it to her instead simply because she entertained them and made them happy for the few minutes they were forced into that cantina.

Add this new content, that's a terrific idea, just don't let them take battle fatigue away from her.

Message Edited by Reachwind on 06-18-2005 12:56 AM

Panthu
Sat Jun 18, 2005 12:55 pm
#33






PoetDancer wrote:





Frankly, who ever had the notion that BF had to go? Certainly not I. Was it YOU?


(PS: I added the smileytounges because you like them so much )





Oh goodness, you really are freaking out. /comfort I only used one tongue smiley and it was after I said that the Devs said my emails were too long. They said it teasing me and it was a silly thing. *shrug*


Anyway, yes, I did ask if BF could go away (at the Summit was the first time I remember). I also asked if we could have Universal Fatigue instead (also from the thread I quoted above) and I also asked if BF could be beefed up to actually mean something (they said no to both, and told us that BF would in fact be getting nerfed, it was never meant to accrue like it had been... what we see now post-CU was what they had intended).


I have never had a unique idea about anything with these professions. Every idea I ever thought I had first, I found out someone else had already posted about after doing a forum search. I was just a really good note taker when I was a corr, and since then I don't think that even mattered anymore because Deila and Eshie were both awesome corrs that jumped right in with their own corr presence.


I'm just a big fan of this prof and this community and I only want what I believe will be best for us. Sorry if we don't feel like that's the same thing here. No reason to get snippy.




P A N T H U Y GlitterUsagi
M i n d B o d y S p i r i t
Dancer ImageDesigner Doc

NeillM
Sat Jun 18, 2005 1:55 pm
#34






DoMakk wrote:
I am so likely to accidentally equip my fake armor and fake weapons for a fight...it's not funny.





hehe, that would be funny! But I would probably do the same!



- Neeill Orkaorchi, Elder Entertainer/Elder Musician, Intrepid
- Nai'ren, Trader, Intrepid
- ATK and enjoy your day

Drop Off Vendor: FOE Canyon, Talus (4408, 2199)

Arrogance is unavoidable. The trick is to find an arrogance you can live with
--Qilue-UCW--
Sat Jun 18, 2005 2:08 pm
#35


My thoughts...


First, what Kind of performer would refuse a politerequest from a patron for a song or dance they like, and want to see/hear?


I Really hopethey remove Loping macros before this is implimented Otherwise this is all you'll see


/g I will be performing Western, Exotic4, Formal, Breakbance2, Popular2, and Poplock one
/g Currently Playing Western,

.....2 seconds later
/g I am not Dacinign Exotic4...

.....2 Seconds later

/g Now Dancing Formal

Ect... ect.. ect..

.

I also hope that these buffs will work like Insperations, andbe based on how longa perfomer iswatched, and not on how many flourishes one spamns.


This was one thing I liked about the implmentationofInsperations, just making sure the dance looked good was enough, no need to spamflourishes.



Signed, Kyo'nne Ilhar'dro
K
airn Medical Regiment, Chief Medic
T
aeor Quartermaster

"I want to find something I've wanted all along... Somewhere I belong"

~ J'inx
[Bria] ~ Kaji'ra [Starsider] ~ Qilue [Corbantis] ~ Bell'an [Valcyn] ~

PoetDancer
Sat Jun 18, 2005 5:50 pm
#36







Chessack wrote:


What I am sure of, is that things need to change, and taking BF out and putting in a more positive role for dancers sounds like it might work. At least, it's worth a try. As you point out, what's going on right now, is not working at all.

C






In my estimation, we have it better right now than we have in all of 2004 and the spring of 2005. We have less unattendees. Spam is down. And new entertainers are finally getting a platform that they can use to entertain an audience. I felt as close as I ever have in a long time to the fine environment I had at launch in the time after the CU was launched; a time when entertainment was about entertaining.


BF was perhaps the only realm an entertainer like me could be rewarded. Because I will probably never have +25% clothes. Nor will I automate my performance while I leave the computer. The wonderful thing about these professionswas that someone like me can attract an audience and make a decent living through tips simply by working hard to amuse my audience. BF allowed me to do that.


But my goodness! If I ever for a moment thought that this profession would be about wearing the same boringclothes with +25% enhancement mods and about selling buffing cycles at peak efficiency, someone like me will never be able to make it in this profession. The only reason I was able to survive in 2004 was because of BF. And it was hard. VERY hard.


But it seems that this profession will simply not value the sort of things thatIhave made a living doing. Because I fail to see how any of this has to do with dancing and being an entertainer.


So here is my question to you, Chessak. Why do we even have to be dancers at all to do these things? It seems to me that it would be much better for everyone if the audience did not have to be bothered to see our dance at all to get these buffs.


Because after all, why does it really matter in the end if one can do the dance and the entertaining in an amusing way? I fail to see how anyone could really justify tipping the amusing dancer at all, if the unattended or boorish dancer next to him or her can buff a percentage point or two higher.


And I admit. I bet there are some amongst us who will do rather well in a system that values the strength of the buff over amusement value. And given the /covercharge tools, and the lack of any mechanic like BF, now nobody even has any reason to be amusing. All they need do is dress in their loot, sit back, start their macro, gab in groupchat, ignore the patrons, and collect tips.


This was a profession that I didn't need to be in a guild, or have multi-million credit loot, or follow some preprogrammed, system driven formula to be at the very top of my game. It was a profession that rewarded me on the basis of what I could create from my own imagination.


But what is amusement really worth? One can be the most amusing dancer in the galaxy. But if they cannot buff at the strength of the boring dancer next to them, then the boring dancer is a better dancer.


BF was a unique system in that it made the effort to amuse worth something. I fail to see how statistic enhancement really values the effort to amuse the audience. Because as we have heard time and time again from our patrons reagarding entertainment statistical enhancements, they really don't care about being amused. All they want is the best and fastest "goodie" available to them, and they could care less if it is given in an amusing way or not.


It used to be that all I needed in the galaxy as a dancer were my legs and my charming personality. And through it all, as long as I had those two things, I found a way to survive as a dancer. But I do not see how those things will be enough in the future. It seems that the game is moving in a direction that makes this profession like all the others. A profession that values the skillboxes above the actual player skill; or the loot one wears, rather than the one who plays the character. And it seems that in a game that makes the reason to go to the cantina based around "gaining perks," that no amount of effort, no amount of charm, no amount of rehearsal, no amount of compassion toward the audience will make one darn bit of difference in the end.


I always had hope in a battle fatiuge healing game that if I could just figure out what to say or dofor the sake ofthe patrons, I could come out better. But I am afraid that in a game that makes what I do about buffing, nothing I can ever come up with will make any difference.

Message Edited by PoetDancer on 06-18-2005 08:29 PM



Madame Sirii Ajaan
August 2003-September 15, 2005
"There is a difference between being /watched and being WATCHED."
Doriana
Sat Jun 18, 2005 7:46 pm
#37

Maybe your server is different but I really don't see an improvement post-CU from pre-CU. At first I did, yes. The first couple weeks, unattededness was down, hardly any spammers, and things looked good.

But that was just for a couple weeks.

It's worse than I've seen in a long time on Flurry, now. And as Mos Eisley has been filling to the brim with AFKs, they're starting to spread out into places like Theed. Until about a week ago, Theed was with rare exception spam free. Now I have to ignore 2 or 3 people every time I go in.

I just don't see this improvement. All I'm seeing is fewer and fewer patrons who are even bothering to come into the cantina at all.

What Im also not seeing is anyone advocating a return to mind buff style buff application. When the question was asked at the roundtable the answer was that the new inspirations will be applied int he same manner as the current ones. I fail to see how that is different from bf healing from our performance point of view.




Doriana | Anabelle

Elder MasterDancer | (sensor hibernating)

-I support ATK people and playstyles.



Chessack
Sat Jun 18, 2005 8:12 pm
#38


PoetDancer wrote:
In my estimation, we have it better right now than we have in all of 2004 and the spring of 2005. We have less unattendees. Spam is down.




You only say that because you are already a master. Things are OK for MASTERS because AFKers are fewer and spam is down. Drop the master box and your two healing lines and try to re-learn them from scratch (no banked, capped heal XP -- that's cheating), and see how great you think we have it.

And by the way, I've been a master for a long time too, so I'm not saying it for self-serving reasons... I just can't imagine how a new dancer would want to stick with it long enough to master as things are now, with so little BF healing XP to be had.

As long as we are providing a useful service, I have no problem with the particular service switching from BF to something else. And for once, PoetD, I just don't even understand where you are coming from. What is the big deal about BF? It's just a word (well, two words) and a number. As long as you can still perform and give the patron something useful in game (e.g., inspirations, which I readily admit are not up to snuff yet), I don't see the problem.

C



=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Dejah Thoris
Dancer, Musician, Image Designer
Kor Spera, Corellia, Naritus
PoetDancer
Sat Jun 18, 2005 10:01 pm
#39


BF healing was all about working around a time element. Yes, there were clothes that helped reduce the time needed to heal BF, but they were available to everyone, and they really only meant that there was less pressure on us to fill in the time. I do not think patrons really give much thought to the time needed to tend to BF. In fact, patrons only really care about the time needed to tend to the BF if the act before them seems boring or uninteresting. And I agree. The patrons get a lot of that with unattended entertainers.


But that is the thing that we live entertainers can work with. We can make the time--however long or short in truth--interesting so the patron does not have to be bored. And when thevariable betweenDancer A and Dancer B isa mere time element difference, the response of the patron is to gravitate toward the source that can occupy his or her attention, rather than watch the ctrl-c screen tick down.


Now buffs also have a time element associated with them. And I agree that, like BF healing, the time element of buffing is something that we as live performers can always overcome. I cannot tell you how many times I have done a buff in the pre-CU days, and entertain for ten minutes past the time when the buff was done, only to hear from the patron, "that was quick."


However, when we talk about enhancement functions, the time element is not the critical difference between Dancer A and Dancer B. Buffs also have a magnitude element associated with them. And while a skilled performer at the keyboard can work to mitigate the time element for a patron by creating an interesting show, the magnitude element has nothing really to do with the show.


In fact, the magnitude element is the determining factor in deciding to patronize Dancer A over Dancer B. A 17% increase is better than a 16% increase, and so on. And the thing about a magnitude element is that the things that determine the magnitude of the buff depend on:


1) Skill boxes


and


2) Loots


So as a result, if our viability as performers and our ability to attract an audience depends on maximizing the magnitude element of the buff, then the only real things we would need to do as performers is to maximize our skill boxes, and maximize our loots.


Now certainly, one could decide as a performer to work with the time element. But there is nothing a dancer can really do on the cantina floor to overcome a difference in magnitude. The factors that determine magnitude have nothing really to do with the things the dancer does while performing, and have everything to do with the inherent qualities of the skill animating character.


We saw this in play with buffbots before the CU. A dancer may be charming. They may even be rather skilled in terms of skill progression. But unless they can duplicate the buffing effect of the +125% buffbot next to them, they simply have no means to overcome the difference in a sheer mathematical sense. Couple that with the ability to buffa large numberof patrons at the same time, and even the most entertaining of entertainers has no real means to overcome the discrepency.


Many times I have been able to earn a lot simply by being around the buffbots before the CU. But that was before /covercharge, when a dancer couldn't force a tip for a /watch. I have also been able to gain an audience in the cantinas simply by being available for those things that still only worked with a time element, such as healing BF.


But if the only things that we have to attract an audience in the daily running of the servers have a magnitude element associated with them, and the dancer can merely skill animate and force a tip from those who attempt to /watch, then a single master dancer in a +125% costume leaves every other dancer who cannot duplicate that in a difficult situation.


Because even though a dancer may take great pains to greet every patron, create an amusing atmosphere, and work hard with the only things they can, I would venture to say that in a game that only has statistic enhancements as a draw, patrons would rather pay to have a large buff administered in a boring way, rather than have a smaller buff administered in an amusing way.


Some dancers here have "the +125% costume." And I am sure that it gives you great comfort to know that the costume you possess will "pwn" Sirii Ajaan and those like her every time in a world of enhancement-only dancing. You'll get the return on your investment you and your guilds paid so much to expect.


Frankly, I never had the inclination, the means, nor the guild to get a 125% piece of loot. But at least I always knew that there was some facet of the game that did not depend on loot, where it actually made sense to change costumes to add variety to my routines. Nor do I want to be part of something where I am judged on the loot I buy or am given, and not by what I do inside those grey walls of the cantina. These used to be a group of professions where someone who made the effort to be entertaining made a difference in things like Battle Fatigue and wound healing.


Many have said here that nobody really cares anymore if they are amused in the cantina or not. And if what is at stake is a buff that is higher in magnitude, I would certainly say yes. If I were shopping for armour, I would buy from the armoursmith with the better armour, not the armoursmith that told better jokes.


But there is nothing within Battle Fatigue that really depends on magnitude. Everyone gets their BF healed, and the only real element is time. And it is because the differences between two dancers in a Battle Fatigue game are differences specifically in the rapidity of the procedure that it gives the entertainer a reason to be entertaining. Because ifhe or shecan make the time more interesting for the patron, and make the time go by faster for the patron, then he or she can still compensate for the lack of BF healing speed through player decisions on the cantina floor, while play is in progress.


But what advice can you give a master dancer who is dancing next to a +125% master other than to get a +125% piece of loot? I may be good, but I have yet to see how a polished improvisational act at the keys can make a +25% bonus appear.




Madame Sirii Ajaan
August 2003-September 15, 2005
"There is a difference between being /watched and being WATCHED."
Page 3 of 4