Dancer Archive
Thread: Cross-post from entertainer forum (a dev speaks)
PoetDancer wrote:
BF healing was all about working around a time element. Yes, there were clothes that helped reduce the time needed to heal BF, but they were available to everyone, and they really only meant that there was less pressure on us to fill in the time. I do not think patrons really give much thought to the time needed to tend to BF. In fact, patrons only really care about the time needed to tend to the BF if the act before them seems boring or uninteresting. And I agree. The patrons get a lot of that with unattended entertainers.
But that is the thing that we live entertainers can work with. We can make the time--however long or short in truth--interesting so the patron does not have to be bored. And when thevariable betweenDancer A and Dancer B isa mere time element difference, the response of the patron is to gravitate toward the source that can occupy his or her attention, rather than watch the ctrl-c screen tick down.
Now buffs also have a time element associated with them. And I agree that, like BF healing, the time element of buffing is something that we as live performers can always overcome. I cannot tell you how many times I have done a buff in the pre-CU days, and entertain for ten minutes past the time when the buff was done, only to hear from the patron, "that was quick."
However, when we talk about enhancement functions, the time element is not the critical difference between Dancer A and Dancer B. Buffs also have a magnitude element associated with them. And while a skilled performer at the keyboard can work to mitigate the time element for a patron by creating an interesting show, the magnitude element has nothing really to do with the show.
In fact, the magnitude element is the determining factor in deciding to patronize Dancer A over Dancer B. A 17% increase is better than a 16% increase, and so on. And the thing about a magnitude element is that the things that determine the magnitude of the buff depend on:
1) Skill boxes
and
2) Loots
So as a result, if our viability as performers and our ability to attract an audience depends on maximizing the magnitude element of the buff, then the only real things we would need to do as performers is to maximize our skill boxes, and maximize our loots.
Now certainly, one could decide as a performer to work with the time element. But there is nothing a dancer can really do on the cantina floor to overcome a difference in magnitude. The factors that determine magnitude have nothing really to do with the things the dancer does while performing, and have everything to do with the inherent qualities of the skill animating character.
You're still hung up on the old Mind Buff system though.
Skill specific enhancements do not have to be better simply because they were provided by a Master. So magnitude never comes into play.
If it was a flat increase based on the song or dance, then yes, skill boxes would play a factor, just as they do wtih every other service profession, by simply providing the Dancer/Musician with a greater variety fo enhancements. But there is nothing wrong with that. It gives an incentive to move beyond the Novice stage.
There are several possibilities here to make the ATK performer more desirable than the AFK performer. Thus making the real performers much more valuable.
PoetDancer wrote:
However, when we talk about enhancement functions, the time element is not the critical difference between Dancer A and Dancer B. Buffs also have a magnitude element associated with them. And while a skilled performer at the keyboard can work to mitigate the time element for a patron by creating an interesting show, the magnitude element has nothing really to do with the show.
They seem to have said these would work like insperations. This means, In my mind that they will be time based on the skill of the perfomer, and the song being performed (perhaps this will be the power determinant, Both Basic and Breakdance buff Defence, but breakdance gives a more pwerfull buff) . Not on the need for Skill takes to increase the buffs power, only Decrease the time to apply them
We saw this in play with buffbots before the CU. A dancer may be charming. They may even be rather skilled in terms of skill progression. But unless they can duplicate the buffing effect of the +125% buffbot next to them, they simply have no means to overcome the difference in a sheer mathematical sense. Couple that with the ability to buffa large numberof patrons at the same time, and even the most entertaining of entertainers has no real means to overcome the discrepency.
You must play on a very bad server, because most people I know don't go to buff bots (I hope that because ofmy oppinions of bufbots)
I dunno, But It just seems to me that your always agenst everything thats being posted, and/or Try to find then flaws in any thing that people post that might make us usefull again.
PoetDancer wrote:Now buffs also have a time element associated with them. And I agree that, like BF healing, the time element of buffing is something that we as live performers can always overcome. I cannot tell you how many times I have done a buff in the pre-CU days, and entertain for ten minutes past the time when the buff was done, only to hear from the patron, "that was quick."
However, when we talk about enhancement functions, the time element is not the critical difference between Dancer A and Dancer B. Buffs also have a magnitude element associated with them. And while a skilled performer at the keyboard can work to mitigate the time element for a patron by creating an interesting show, the magnitude element has nothing really to do with the show.
In fact, the magnitude element is the determining factor in deciding to patronize Dancer A over Dancer B. A 17% increase is better than a 16% increase, and so on.
I think I finally see the problem here.
You are making an enormous, and as far as I can tell from what we have seen and heard so far (as well as what is in the game right now) completely unfounded assumption, that something we do in regard to bashing on keys or macroing will affect the amount as well as duration of the buff -- that is, if I flourish "better" than you do, I will give that 17% buff and you only will give a 16%, and so everyone will come to me.
What evidence is there that this will be how they implement it? As far as I can tell, the answer to that is: zero. Unless you've got some secret design document data that nobody else has access to, you can't know how they will implement it. In fact, since it is in design, how it will be implemented is probably still open to discussion.
From the evidence we do have, they seem to be trying to make buffing a "no brainer" -- similar to BF healing in that the patron comes in, and the inspiration buff is auto-applied. Now, one complaint WE have had is "well a novice can do that slower but as well as a master." How to remedy this? The most common thing I have seen is that higher level people (or higher level music/dances) can buff more things. Right now, combat XP and crafting are buffed. But they could make other buffs -- ranged acc buff, melee acc buff, defense buff, healing downtime buff (less time between stimming), etc. Now they will have to be CAREFUL about doing this relative to chef foods, so that there is not too much redundancy. My guess is, if they make the two stack, we'll be fine... Or, they can make it so dancers give a lower amount than food but it lasts longer... This can be worked out.
However, every indication we have from the current buff system is that the quality of the buff (how much of it you get) will be constant. The devs clearly heard our complaints about the 'nonstop flourishing' business and they did away with that and /setperf. Why would you think after getting rid of it, they would bring it back? I see them as going off in a new direction with dancers and musicians... not as trying to go back to the old way.
What we need to do (and I am sure Eshie can do this and has been doing it) is keep the devs aware that we do not want to go back to the old way where quality was based on button mashing -- that we want to be able to just do a performance, like a good song or dance number that is rehearsed, and have it work for the patron, without the devs arbitrarily stepping in and saying, "No, you have to do this dance with this flourish order or your buff will not stick right." That was the old way but they have done away with it, so let's just make sure they don't retrograde back into it.
Beyond that, BF as I say is just a number. As long as inspiration buffs work the same way BF did, we should be fine.
C
I think I'm understanding Sirii's point to be this, in part:
That in the current system and in the mind buff era system both, we have a passive, intuitive skill that everyone would need sometime. So even if you do not like buffing, you still have a viable game option, because everyone still needs healing.
I agree that this is something we need to keep in the profession. An option for people who want to be viable performers, but do not want to buff, and do not want to take away from performing to "do" a buff. Forcing us to become buffers or else would be bad.
I honestly can't say if I think the current base inspiration will be sufficient for that or not. It might be, depending on how it interacts with the new system(s).
Doriana wrote:
I'd be greatly opposed to dance choice affecting what buff or buff potency was dispensed. What dance I choose to do or song I choose to play (or what level music group I choose to be part of) is very much a choice that I can't fathom giving up.
Intresting Point, I had not thought about what a song requirment for power/buff affect would do to a Musician's ability to group. Given that the whole group has to perform the same song. If somone came along wanting a stroger song buff then the group was abe to perform you would either have to drop form the group or make the group stop perfoming 
Perhaps the answer is an Insperation branch that gives us the ability to apply diffrent insperations depending on our Skill levle?
So what is our opinion on the viability of SEAs? Because the "button mashing" is nothing all that crucial. But I have some reason to suspect that SEAs and loot effects that create a magnitude difference will be making a comeback. And if that is the case, I wish to know now if these things are going to create that difference in buff magnitude that I cannot smooth over by being amusing, and have no other realm that I can play a game that caters to my strengths.
Is it an assumption? Perhaps. But I have found that with these developers, I'd better assume, because once its announced officially, it will get in the game whether we like it or not. And the fact that you have done a complete smokescreen of this issue only reaffirms to me that you really want SEAs, clothes, and other various loots to create a dfference in the magnitude of the buffs between two dancers.
You say that we as dancers want to be able to do buffs that lower levels cannot duplicate. But if that is the case, then what sort of a game do we leave to the levelling entertainers who simply cannot overcome the mechanics discrepency through anything they can do on the cantina floor through play?
You keep on saying, Cheesack, that I don't make myself clear. But I have made myself very clear, yet somehow it seems you don't really care.
Message Edited by PoetDancer on 06-20-2005 01:54 AM