Dancer Archive
Thread: Cross-post from entertainer forum (a dev speaks)
*blinks* Sirii dear, you are the one I credit with this idea originally. I mean, a Dev may have had it before a player and not told us, but you were the one that spawned the "non-combat" and "multi-buff" chain of thought that I personally know about.
PoetDancer wrote on 05-03-2004:
Is there any rule which says that we cannot enhance other things as well, like combat bonuses, or other stats like dodge or experimentation bonuses? Because you see, SEA tapes are permanent alterations to a template, but they are expensive. However, an armoursmith may not need +10 ALL the time, but maybe only a short time to create a schematic. Maybe a combat character does not need +10 ALL the time, but only for a short span of time. Of course, how does one make the performance watched possess these different qualities? THE DANCE ITSELF! Just a thought I am currently pondering.
TH as well as members of the Dev team read that thread while it was live and took note of the discussion which followed from your idea. I even named you when doing a follow up email with TH about the idea. TH sent out copies of our emails to the whole Dev team (they told me about it at the first FF, lol... they said he wasn't allowed to do that any more because mine were so long 
).
Since then, many other players have ran with the idea: Caylin, Deila, Eshie, many other Ent corrs and Ent supportive corrs participated in threads and talks about it, and many other player notes have been passed back since then (from here and the other Ent forums, but also the CU Beta forum). All of this was spawned from your post above afaik. Everyone loves this idea.
What's the problem? Just freaked out that people won't be made to spend time in the Cantinas on a regular basis doing something slow? I had hoped you would be happy about your idea taking off like this.Don't you think we can attract people with just our buffs, charm, and performances? I truly do.
Now, I'd also like to see some things that are only found in the Cantinas, but I think those can be on the building and not us... and come later. Until we try this, we can't know that it won't have enough appeal on its own.
Please do not flame him while he's there, ladies and gentlemen.
hell that will give me more of a reason to play on my master musition then to just cool down from combat!!!!!
woot!!
Reachwind wrote:
Sirii is 100% correct. Taking BF out of the game kills the game for one particular type of entertainer and one only. That's the entertainers like Sirii that rely not on dances or music or even game mechanics at all to earn their income but person to person interaction. Sirii dances just like anyone else, she makes the same lights completes the same flourishes... What she does that not many other entertainers can even think of doing is truly entertain and entice you. She does it by what she says, by what she wears and by how she emotes. When people come up to her and say, "Sirii give me a ____ buff" they completely take her out of the game. The bots and the players that pride themselves on crunching numbers can always do things like min max buff times, make the process faster and easier, BETTER.
So if I understand this correctly... people did not say, "Heal my BF" but they say "Buff me", so that makes BF healing good, and buffing bad?
I'm sorry... maybe it is different on your server. The blunt reality is, almost nobody bothers to RP at all on my server. It's not like, if they aren't asking about buffs, they will suddenly be in character. I still see lots of "dude lmao" and suchlike comments, when people talk to each other -- there's been little RPing on this game, at least on the servers I tried (including the vaunted "unofficial RP server", Starsider, though that was long ago) since long and long again before anyone could buff with dancing.
Perhaps the solution to "improved buffing" is NOT to hook the dance in to a special buff. But remember, no dev has ever said they would -- that was one player's idea, and a couple of us (/raises hand) latched on to it because it is a way to get rid of buffbotting... no AFK bot can know what the guy walking in the door is asking for, and therefore only someone actually playing the game can dance the proper dance. HOWEVER, remember that this has not been suggested as the new "inspiration" method by any dev... just by a small number of players. And we all know how incredibly well the devs listen to the players.
Short of that, let's assume (as I would not be shocked to learn) that the plan is, to take ent heal XP and BF out of the game, give us a new dance or two, and leave inspirations the way they are for now... That is, all we can do is give the generic "novice" level inspiration. If that is what happens (and I would bet it will), then how does this take anyone out of their game? Nobody will ask for a _____ buff, because there is only one and it is automatic. So how then is it going to be a problem?
We know they want to give us something valuable we can give to players, like a craftless crafter, almost, but they have not yet said what that is. I think we're jumping the gun here a bit assuming it is going to increase the amount of OOC comments in the game, when we don't even know what they are going to add, if anything.
Taking BF out of the game, and our Ent Heal requirements with it, is not a big deal at this point, since there is no appreciable BF that is being handed out now anyway.
C
People won't come see you because you put on a good show, for a while maybe, but not like healing BF has been the whole time. Most players couldn't care less about content or interactive entertainment, they just want XP and loot. Decorate homes? What for? Watch a play? How much xp will I get? Hang out and talk to people? But I need to grind FS!?
While the tools you're getting sound nice, I really don't have faith that it'll be as great as some think. And since they are taking away from you, I wouldn't get your hopes up about getting anything in return. They destroyed the Doctor profession, essentially removing Buffs, wound heals and medicines from us, and gave us nothing. With the removal of BF, it seems only a matter of time before they remove Battle Wounds as well, and finally finish off my beloved profession.
I dunno, we'll have to see. I am looking forward to all the new tricks you'll be able to do, but I have doubts about getting an audience for you all if it's not required.
When I read that BF was going away, I thought "Well we knew that already." I was already under the impression that the only reason it didn't disappear with the CU was because they hadn't implemented exp changes for us yet.
I think we need to think of BF removal in the same light as wound heal removal. Is it really being removed, or it the ability just being given a make-over? If inspiration buffing of all kinds work just as BF and wound heals used to, is it not the same thing with a different name?
Now for the negative part -- I know we're scared about bots. I'm scared, too. There is so much potential in these changes for every last vestige of live entertainment to disappear, I'm not going to deny that. Already the number of cantinas I can perform in is dwindling, simply because of the lag from the concentration of AFKers and the massive spam. How can I do a performance at 2FPS and crashing every 2 minutes? How can I use the tactic of putting on a better show to draw someone away from a bot when they get their full buff passively in 3 exp ticks and are back out the door before I even see that they're there? And why would they bother with their OWN 2FPS and crashing adventures when they're not being forced to? When it's only the pleasure of our company that draws them in -- but wait, we're stuck in AFK hell and it's not fun?
I understand how we've all adapted our own ways of dealing with and being successful even in the presence of the AFKers, and how this means we're going to once again adapt ourselves if we want to survive.
And yet, we've seen so many promises. AFK going away in May. Any future inspirations will be ATK only. Our frustration is understood. Maybe this time it will come true. And maybe it will be that system message about inspiration being completed that people will forget to watch for, instead of the BF counter hitting 0.
It's daunting and frustrating knowing we have another adaptation phase to go through, again, and so quickly after the CU. But while this has the potential to turn out very bad if it's done wrong, if it's done right it has even more potential to turn out good. We can't let fear of change ruin what might be our last chance to turn cantinas back into someplace enjoyable.
And honestly, at this point, what DO we have to lose?
Just how are entertainers supposed to get the resources needed to create these props? Will survey skillsbe included in our crafting line?
How many resources will be required? Will they be easily attainable? Will they be specific named resources (i.e., Talusian Scaley Hide)? Will they require components from an identical factory crate?
I hope the resource requirements are not similar to the requirements for enhancers as most entertainers would not be able to afford to create them. Imagine if you will having resource requirements similar to this to create one item:
125 Insect Meat
150 Greens
175 Polymer
200 Radioactive
9 Identical ASDS from a factory crate (requires: 16 Domesticated Oats/16 Dolovite Iron per each)
9 Identical ACRDM (reqs: 16 Hebrivore Meat/16 Calss 4 Liq Petro Fuel per each)
9 Identical ARC (reqs: 24 Tolium Reactive Gas/24 Class 1 Radioactive per each)
More information is required but I doubt that it will be forth coming.
Why not make props an entertainer specific quest or mission? We barely get any credits from missions now but at least they are relatively safe for all the CL1 entertainers. Those of you who have an entertainer line and a combat line wouldn't have a problem either way but the new player or the player who does not want combat would not have to die and suffer the expense of cloning, or insuring (I know, I know) or decay to clothing.
Resource requirements for Musical Instruments are fairly low, and generally available from any crafter if you simply ask them. (They don't mind giving up 20 units here and there.) I would expect prop requirements to be similarly simplistic. We aren't, after all, a crafting profession.
Kylania wrote:
Negative reinforcement was needed with the average SWG player though. There's far too many people who'll simply stop coming to see Entertianers since they don't have to anymore.
Well I don't know about you... I play an entertainer as a socializer... We did a poll on this forum WAAAY back with the bartle test and out of 33 people who took the test, I think two were not socializers far before anything else. This is a social profession. It is a profession made FOR the socializers. The point of it is to be able to interact in a positive manner with other players (vs. a "killer" who likes to interact in a negative manner, i.e. PVP). The healing, yes, was designed to give non-entertainers a reason to go into the cantina, but... it didn't work that well, because, while you can force people to go get a heal, you cannot force them to socialize amicably.
I think something that forces people into the cantina (in a "you have to go get a heal or your character is unplayable" way, as old-school BF once was) was poorly thought out to begin with. What socializers want is other people who WANT to be there to interact with us... not other people who are FORCED to be there with us "or else."
I'd rather my character had a positive influence than a negative... and that people felt like I was a help if available, but they could still play the game reasonably well if I weren't. It's when they HAVE to have you "or else" (for whatever the "else" reason is) that they become resentful.
C
Chessack wrote:
Kylania wrote:
Negative reinforcement was needed with the average SWG player though. There's far too many people who'll simply stop coming to see Entertianers since they don't have to anymore.
Well I don't know about you... I play an entertainer as a socializer... We did a poll on this forum WAAAY back with the bartle test and out of 33 people who took the test, I think two were not socializers far before anything else. This is a social profession. It is a profession made FOR the socializers. The point of it is to be able to interact in a positive manner with other players (vs. a "killer" who likes to interact in a negative manner, i.e. PVP). The healing, yes, was designed to give non-entertainers a reason to go into the cantina, but... it didn't work that well, because, while you can force people to go get a heal, you cannot force them to socialize amicably.
I think something that forces people into the cantina (in a "you have to go get a heal or your character is unplayable" way, as old-school BF once was) was poorly thought out to begin with. What socializers want is other people who WANT to be there to interact with us... not other people who are FORCED to be there with us "or else."
I'd rather my character had a positive influence than a negative... and that people felt like I was a help if available, but they could still play the game reasonably well if I weren't. It's when they HAVE to have you "or else" (for whatever the "else" reason is) that they become resentful.
C
Dejah you yourself know how difficult it is too get people to come into just socialize. Look to your experience with Hyperdrive. GES has the same issues getting people to come out to the cantina and just socialize. GES has had it's ups and downs, people trying to draw players to the "events" have given up and passed the torch on to others. I think my friends list must rival Thompson's.
Is this what we will be relagated to? Spamming players with emails, planet spams, dedicated chat spams to get them to come into the cantinas?
There has to be a better way. Perhaps it is giving a bonus to the entertainer who is ATK which cuts BF healing time in half or individual buffs or whatever they choose to leave in the system.
Will they double decay to the combat players? What will be the cost for dying (loosing)? If the only goal is to streamline combat time then the warm-ups and cool-downs need to come out of combat as well. This wastes time. New players are instructed in their quest tutorial to sit down between fights to regen their health faster, doesn't this waste time?
New players do not walk up to you and say "invite to ent group" as they do not know the buffbot system. How will new players (our life blood if you think about it) know to even go to the cantina to be entertained? Will a tutorial be added to explain the benefits of interacting with entertainers?
Show me the process map. Letscompare the As Is and the Should Be. As we all know from experience, and contrary to TH's asserttion that very code change is looked to insure that everything that change touches is taken into consideration, more things get broken because the ramifications to the big picture (the process) is not taken into consideration.