Dancer Archive
Thread: will the new buffs just bring back the bots?
Caerwynn wrote:
Didn't we hear that bots and recusive macros were 'definitely' going in June? June came and went, bots and recursive macros are still here.
Message Edited by Panthu on 07-26-2005 03:49 AM
I like all those ideas! It seems like the badges for patrons might be the easiest to implement.
Reachwind wrote:
1) Loot that entertainers can activate: Simple system that is already in place for a lot of professions (smuggler/artisan etc). Basically loot components would be assembled by an entertainer to make a desirable and rare house decoration. Since this requires an ATK entertainer to do the trade, make the assembly and return the item it would not add any more AFKing to a cantina.
2) Wound healing: Doctors and Jedi are not always available to heal wounds at all hours so give us the ability to heal wounds via a special dance or song or even reactivate passive healing from our entertaining in cantinas.
3) Add in a title/badge system of reward for people that frequent a cantina and /watch or /listen to an entertainer. Basically give players a character reward for their time spent in a cantina being entetained. Titles would show up on a character the same as faction ranks for example (the generous, the wise, the caring, the adventerous, the brave, etc.) Badges could be like (... Has spent 100 hours in a cantina being entertained, ...Has tasted the Mos Eisley cantina's house brew, etc.)
4) Allow a player that is watching or listening to an entertainer to recieve a slow and minimal restoration of item condition (like 20% max at master) Basically they clean their gear while relaxing between missions. This would basically allow players killed without insuring a chance to reclaim that damage they recieved in a positive manner. Massive damage would still require repair kits and once an item got below a certain condition (say 50%) then the gradual repair would not succeed.
5) Allow a player that is watching or listening to an entertainer to earn credits for his time there. Basically the player watching or listening to an entertainer would get information tips periodically while watching or listening to an entertainer via a popup window that would allow a player to make a quick delivery or destroy mission that would grant the audience member and entertainer both a sum of credits. (Say 1-10k credit mission that pays each party the ammount of the mission on successful completion ala the current combat group mission. This mission would never have a distance greater than 1000m from the entertainer that spawned it.)
Positive ideas for the profession?
Here are some for you... First of all give us a POST COMBAT support role. So that this is not a penalty to impede a casual combat player yet incentive for them to come into the cantina and be genuinely happy to see the entertainers after they have had enough combat, lets add in a couple of perks for them.
1) Loot that entertainers can activate: Simple system that is already in place for a lot of professions (smuggler/artisan etc). Basically loot components would be assembled by an entertainer to make a desirable and rare house decoration. Since this requires an ATK entertainer to do the trade, make the assembly and return the item it would not add any more AFKing to a cantina.
2) Wound healing: Doctors and Jedi are not always available to heal wounds at all hours so give us the ability to heal wounds via a special dance or song or even reactivate passive healing from our entertaining in cantinas.
3) Add in a title/badge system of reward for people that frequent a cantina and /watch or /listen to an entertainer. Basically give players a character reward for their time spent in a cantina being entetained. Titles would show up on a character the same as faction ranks for example (the generous, the wise, the caring, the adventerous, the brave, etc.) Badges could be like (... Has spent 100 hours in a cantina being entertained, ...Has tasted the Mos Eisley cantina's house brew, etc.)
4) Allow a player that is watching or listening to an entertainer to recieve a slow and minimal restoration of item condition (like 20% max at master) Basically they clean their gear while relaxing between missions. This would basically allow players killed without insuring a chance to reclaim that damage they recieved in a positive manner. Massive damage would still require repair kits and once an item got below a certain condition (say 50%) then the gradual repair would not succeed.
5) Allow a player that is watching or listening to an entertainer to earn credits for his time there. Basically the player watching or listening to an entertainer would get information tips periodically while watching or listening to an entertainer via a popup window that would allow a player to make a quick delivery or destroy mission that would grant the audience member and entertainer both a sum of credits. (Say 1-10k credit mission that pays each party the ammount of the mission on successful completion ala the current combat group mission. This mission would never have a distance greater than 1000m from the entertainer that spawned it.)
Caerwynn wrote:
The comment was made to show that we hear things that are 'definitely' going to happen then don't. You lifted my sentence out of context.
Recursive macros going away pt 2
That isnt "just something a dev said".
Im sorry its so tiresome for you.
Message Edited by Oblox2 on 07-27-2005 03:56 PM
PoetDancer wrote:
Esharra wrote:
Or would be, if the new buffs were designed for enhancing combat players or combat play. However, they are being designed to enhance non-combat play.
I have to agree with Sal'tee here. In fact, I have every reason to suspect that non-combat enhancements will lead to more botting than if we gave combat enhancements.
The fact that these profession-specific buffs are non-combat, and specialized by no means does not make it any less tempting to lay a 24/7 alt, and in fact, encourages it. Because crafters and other non-combat professions do not want to wait to find an entertainer. They want the bonus when they are in a position to start crafting. So rather than try to track one of us down, it seems to me a large guild or player city may see the utility in creating an entertainer, or many entertainers,to cycle through all the routines in order to give the players what they want, when they want, where they want, and for the price they want (free).
I am concerned that buffs for non-combat only will not give us many patrons. It seems to me that a highly specialized and profession-specific package cuts out the potential market considerably in terms of:
a) The numbers of players online at a given time.
and
b) The number of players within the small demographic that could really use what we offer consistently, and at all hours.
And it is because of these two factors that I am concerned that we simply won't really see much point in spending an evening entertaining a server on the off chance a crafter or wilderness profession could use what we could enhance. An armoursmith only needs an assembly bonus if he or she is assembling. A scout only needs a harvesting bonus if the are harvesting, etc.
So how does one deal with this problem of live entertainers not having much available clientele at all hours, coupled with the non-combat person's desire to have enhancements available without having to track one of us down, convince us to do a show, and compensate us enough for all the trouble?
Simple. Create an entity that really doesn't care about servicing a diverse clientele. One that does not need to be tracked down. One that is always on call to perform. And one that doesn't even need to be compensated.
There isn't anything that makes "non-combat" any less worthwhile to bot. If anything, non-combat professions and skills are used to automated mechanics dispensers they own (vendors, factories, camps, etc). But rather be a piece of "durable capital" they buy in terms of credits, we will be a piece of "durable capital" that runs on real life currency and RAM.
I agree, and very well put.
And I question why nobody seems to have considered this before, at this point.
I don't think non-combat buffs arenecessarily going to save us from yet another bot infestation.
Regardless of WHO we give buffs to, the bottom line, without argument, is this:
Given that...
1) We CAN be AFK'd
and
2) We have ANYTHING that ANYONE wants
then we WILL be botted, because we CAN be botted.
I don't care who we give buffs or bonuses to, I don't think non-combatants are any less inclined to make alt bots to give themselves bonuses on a whim, all I want is for the new system of buffs/bonuses we provide to NOT be AFK'able.
We can give buffs to combatants, non-combatants, whoever, I don't care - but don't let people AFK them, and the war against Entertainer bots will have been won.
The answer isn't non-combatant buffs - that's not a cure all. Combatants aren't the only people who will be inclined to make bots, who are willing to pay $15/month for utter convenience in-game.
The answer is not making Dancer and Musician into buff vendors or allowing players to do so - even with 3rd party macros.
Message Edited by Warryyr on 07-27-2005 09:48 AM
Oblox2 wrote:
There were entire dev documents in the forums about Recursive macros going away.
Recursive macros going away pt 2
That isnt "just something a dev said".
TH was speaking for Tyrant. Really - that was all Tyrant, any red tag who mentioned it was repeating him. TH and Tiggs are almost always just repeating a producer or designer - it's a huge part of their job.
Doesn't matter how many times it was repeated, it was still just Tyrant. Doesn't matter how much you feel "betrayed", it has nothing to do with anything else that we might ever see for us or not see. To tack it on to every single issue in here is self defeating and bad for our community.
It is flawed logic and its negative ramifications havebeen eating at this community for long enough. Deal with it, the Devs are not an entity and should only be spoken of as such with the understanding that it is a conversational convenience only.
Oblox2 wrote:
Then you may want to ask TH to remove his post because while it is still up it is lying to everyone who reads it.
What is so hard to understand about this? Everything said in that post was intended and/or true at the time. Tyrant was very dead set in removing recursive macros - it had a lot more to do with slowing people down so that they couldn't fly through content and a lot less to do with improving immersion for Entertainers, that was almost mentioned as a side thing even when he talked about it himself.
I don't think Tyrant was lying when he said he intended to do this. I don't think it makes it a lie because he then left before it was done. I don't even think it would have been a lie if he had stayed, it would have been a change of plans if it didn't happen like he had thought. TH is certainly not lying when he repeats something passed down to him. TH and Tiggs communicate what they are told, they have very little to do with seeing out what has been said and should not be held accountable for their statements from "the Devs."
There are currently designers and developers working on improvements for live entertainers. Concentrate on the now. The post is out dated and should only be looked at for what it was, something that was intended at the time - not some sacred promise.
Well, the spirit of removing recursive macros, in part, was to get rid of bots/discourage AFK'ing.
I just hope that concept is worked into our new elite profession stuff, I'd like to see it a non-AFK'able process.
Panthu wrote:
Caerwynn wrote:The comment was made to show that we hear things that are 'definitely' going to happen then don't. You lifted my sentence out of context.
No I didn't, my point was that one person only said this was going to happen. Anyone else who said it was just repeating him... and he's gone now.To act like there is some one hive minded single entity known as "the Devs" that can be held to anything that has ever been said by any one of them is just bizarre. If SOE makes a press release, sure, then you can talk about it as if it came from an entity. If it's just something a Dev has said? No. Sorry.It is beyond futile to resent inconsistencies from one dev or producer to the next. It builds a negative attitude in here and unrealistic expectations for our community. Quite frankly, I'm bored with people saying it and acting like wounded divas. It's ever so tiresome. *yawns*
Panthu, I believe Caerwynn was referring to the somewhat recent SWG Vault interview which came out in early May in which the "devs" were fielding a question about entertainers and mentioned, without being specifically asked about it, that the ability to create AFK macros would be going away by the end of May. I don't think it says which devs that they talked with, but I think Tyrant had already left by this time. It would seem to me that this is still something that they may be working on, and I agree with Ani'a that because TH's post is still there on the In Development thread, that it still officially represents the future direction of this game especially given that they have never come out and stated that they have changed their mind. I just don't know if it will really happen anymore or when.
Message Edited by DanceRulez on 07-27-2005 12:42 PM
Panthu wrote:
Caerwynn wrote:
Didn't we hear that bots and recusive macros were 'definitely' going in June? June came and went, bots and recursive macros are still here.
Ok, I don't even know why I'm bothering, but this one really bugs me too (almost as much as "bots are always going to be around because SOE wants money")...
One dude, who I absolutely adore even still, but only one dude said this was the way to do it.... and he wasn't even thinking of Ents mainly! Tyrant thought this was the way to go. Do you honestly think the whole game needs to lose recursive macros just to make Ent bots go away?
Do we have CH taming bots? No. Do we have ID bots? No. Do we have crafting bots? No. <- All of these require a 3rd party program to do while AFK and the same could be done for Dancer and Musician.
Tyrant has moved on, we should too. This was not the improvement we were looking for. To be bitter over it not happening is a huge waste of emotion. It never really had all that much to do with us in the first place.
Message Edited by Panthu on 07-26-2005 03:49 AM
The point I was trying to make is that the same arguments go around, not whether I'm for or against recursive macros. I expressed no opinion over those in my post. The comment was made to show that we hear things that are 'definitely' going to happen then don't. You lifted my sentence out of context.
As I have repeatedly said in other posts we need to get the player base to come and see us, pretty props, clothes, dance routines and merry banter aren't doing it. Other players are too busy xp grinding out of Dant MO (on Chim). If you take a show there you get told to leave because you are making the lag worse. The majority of players are not interested in spending time in cantinas and not many bother with an inspiration buff. That is what we are fighting, not AFK bots.
Quite frankly if I was grinding ent now, I would be seriously tempted to AFK it, it can be a lonely boring grind now that there are so few patrons in the cantinas to chat to.