Dancer Archive
Thread: will the new buffs just bring back the bots?
lekkuboogie
Mon Jul 25, 2005 9:28 am
#14
I don't really have anything new or groundbreaking to say, but I am starting to get discouraged, and so I think I'll just reply to lots of threads and hope sheer volume does some good.
The state of performing has made the play base look at us and say 'why?'. We have new fun stuff, but are just easier to bot than before. I hope its true that the AFK are all going to use itfor arespec, but who knows?
Please Devs give us something that is useful to the community, and that can't be afk'd so we can be taken seriously. And I don't even know anymore how AFK could/should be discouraged or taken out, so I can't add anything there.
Entertainers, crafters and the player driven economy were the best things that made this mmorpg the most unique and cool game out there, please don't just drive those things out.
Gothywench
Mon Jul 25, 2005 10:59 am
#15
Aleyo wrote:
....And while I don't see *everyone* doing it as fast as I do, I have seen some who have done so.
/whisper I need your secret.
I've done it pre-Pub 8 (fastest), Post pub 8 (with the 10 min timers), Post CU without timers and double-XP and now just regular no-timer/regular XP.
DanceRulez
Mon Jul 25, 2005 5:16 pm
#17
Cuit wrote:
MY question . . . the mind buff was one prime reason why the bots were created . . . won't introducing more buffs just bring them back?
And this is the question I am sick of us having to deal with. No other profession in the game (except maybe doctors) has to worry about whether or not new content or new abilities will be exploited by some AFK macro. Any conversation of Entertainers' future in the game or game mechanics or whatever always has the AFK question looming overhead like an executioner's axe, and still the devs do nothing about it. It boggles my mind that they have not only allowed this to persist for so long, but that they won't come out and give us a straight answer on what they are going to do about it and when.
*sigh*
I guess I really shouldn't be so surprised. It's not like it's the only issue in the game that they have allowed to fester unresolved for so long...
libwinds
Mon Jul 25, 2005 10:39 pm
#18
BOT's vs Live players. Will SOE actualy do anything about the suposed BOT problem NO when it comes down to it SOE does not care why don't they because the bot player pays the same amount to them as the active player. If SOE wanted active players its easy enough to enforce, I once played a game I forget the name where every so often you were given a simple math problem ie 22+1= and had to type the answer in the box provided if you did not you were given a warning then xp loss a few times then spension and at the vary end banned. Is this something that SOE will do NO because when it is all said and done SOE is a company who's sole purpose is to make money.
Tsa
Oblox2
Tue Jul 26, 2005 1:06 am
#19
Recursive macros totally hurt the game in all areas.
Im sorry but making life easier for someone because they can run a looping macro is encouraging AFKing.
We have AFK looters, constant combat macros for specials (aura, infusion, duelist stance, cob etc), surveying, ID'ing (no not giving but recieving), Dancing, playing music, spamming messages, doc buffs and wound healing.
Seriously we could live without them.
If you are that unskilled/lazy that you cant hit the right special in combat or cant restart a dance routine with one button press when it runs out or actually be at the keyboard to buff/ID/Loot then you dont deserve these tools. I've used them because they are there much the same as others do, its a crutch not a helper and weening people off them would be hard but better for the game.
Im sorry but making life easier for someone because they can run a looping macro is encouraging AFKing.
We have AFK looters, constant combat macros for specials (aura, infusion, duelist stance, cob etc), surveying, ID'ing (no not giving but recieving), Dancing, playing music, spamming messages, doc buffs and wound healing.
Seriously we could live without them.
If you are that unskilled/lazy that you cant hit the right special in combat or cant restart a dance routine with one button press when it runs out or actually be at the keyboard to buff/ID/Loot then you dont deserve these tools. I've used them because they are there much the same as others do, its a crutch not a helper and weening people off them would be hard but better for the game.
PoetDancer
Tue Jul 26, 2005 7:05 am
#20
I have given the AFK problem a considerable amount of thought, and I have concluded that theproblem of this class is not passivity in mechanics distribution. Passivity is no more subject to automation than actively given mechanics. What passivity does do is make these classes very effective, focus our efforts on the things we do best, and make these classes unique from others of their type.
Doctors have active mechanics distribution, and they are automated as well. All an active "switch"similar to/setperform, a radial click, or an interface will do is make our performance about things other than performance, limit our effectiveness, and make it much more cumbersome to do our profession. And while it may be seen as a necessary burden to stop botting, I have no reason to believe it will stop botting. It will only make bots rely on other methods to bot.
Withall the "policy redefinitions" we have been subjected to,I have very little confidence that CS will sanction those who usethird party applications. "Its against the rules," we say? That never mattered to CS before, and I don't think it will matter again. There is nothing that stops them from redefining the rules, or doing nothing to enforce the rules. At one time, long term unattended play was a violation of the EULA, in any form. But around October, the rule was "redefined." Here's the thread where the rule was redefined to make habitual unattended activity condoned:
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=dancer&message.id=7563&highlight=afk#M7563
So, the problem with creating a system that forces unattended characters to resort to third party programs to continue their botting strategies, is that it only eliminates bots if SOE is serious about enforcing the third party application rule. If SOE redefines the rule to allow entertainers to employ third party applications, or simply does not rigorously enforce the rule, then all we have done is make our game much more complicated, and have done nothing to eliminate bots.
Sorry dancers. I do not trust SOE to enforce their rules with any consistency, or create a set of rules that are stable. The problem with creating a game that depends on EULA enforcement is that SOE has never taken its EULA seriously, and if they have, are unwilling to enforce the EULA. CS is a major source of expenditure for games like this, and as a result, any measure that relies on CS to regulate will most likely be tacitly allowed, until such time as the difficulty can be "coded into irrelevancy."
A better way to eliminate bots is to create a game that no habitual unattended entertainer can handle. One that exposes their weaknesses, and caters to our strengths. And the things that we can do better really have very little to do with the activity or passivity of mechanics distribution. They have to do with these:
Bots are boring to watch for any given length of time. We are not. All other things being equal, if a player has to sit in a static area for a given time, they will prefer to look at the entity that has variety, vibrancy, and can be a responsive interoculator. This is the advantage we had in the BF healing game. Bots simply "existed" in their preprogrammed routine, that became boring and predictable over time. We, however, were more interesting to watch. Long static times help us. Short static times help buffbots.
Bots cannot respond to the changing circumstances around them. We can. A good example of this is when a live event comes by in the cantina. When Droidekias invade, we "get out of Dodge (or Mos-Dodga, as the Jawas say)." Bots lay dead on the floor. We need an environment that is subject to being changed in the cantina, that may make it worth our while to /stopdancing, so we can /startdancing in a better venue. A dynamic cantina environment helps us. A static cantina environment only facilitates botting.
Bots have no internal force that makes choices to better their circumstances. They simply "exist." They do not do those things to maximize their credit gains in the cantina. We do. Therefore, we need some sort of "system facilitation" that gives a playing and active dancer a means by which their activity can make their circumstances better. But this does not require that we become active mechanics distributors in the midst of dancing in order to simulate this. It can also be done via the "pre dance phase (check in, gig missions, booking venues)," or the "post dance phase." A "system driven game" helps us. A "player driven game" only helps those players who are willing to "park toons" in those areas where they will be used.
Message Edited by PoetDancer on 07-26-2005 09:12 AM
Reachwind
Tue Jul 26, 2005 9:49 am
#21
If a noncombat character's phsyical presence is needed to apply a positive state effect on a combat character for maximum ability, it will be automated via an alternate noncombat character. This is a proven verifiable fact.
So the answer to the question of this thread is, YES.
So the answer to the question of this thread is, YES.
Esharra
Tue Jul 26, 2005 9:52 am
#22
Or would be, if the new buffs were designed for enhancing combat players or combat play. However, they are being designed to enhance non-combat play.
Reachwind wrote:
If a noncombat character's phsyical presence is needed to apply a positive state effect on a combat character for maximum ability, it will be automated via an alternate noncombat character. This is a proven verifiable fact.
So the answer to the question of this thread is, YES.
Reachwind
Tue Jul 26, 2005 9:56 am
#23
Esharra wrote:
Or would be, if the new buffs were designed for enhancing combat players or combat play. However, they are being designed to enhance non-combat play.
There is a vast untapped market for you. Today at the dantooine mining outpost all of the crafters demanding access to the grind groups so they can level their weaponsmith/armoursmith/artisan templates for uber market leverage were spamming away that they sure could use some dancer buffs to improve their experimentation points and possibly give them a short speed up buff for their barker droid.
Panthu
Tue Jul 26, 2005 10:56 am
#24
Reach, you leave no answers. You fight anything positive that is said by Esh or anyone else that's actually happening, even if you must contradict yourself to do so. You appear to be quarrelsome just for the sake of being quarrelsome.... there is a name for a poster likethat in forum terms.
Sirii has some great ideas about how to maintain our live goals even if we must continue to share our titles with bots. She has talked about rewarding atk Dancers with interactive opportunities rather than forcing interactivity which would highly likely be cumbersome to live Dancers.
She's talked about ways to clear out the floor for live Dancers. She's talk about ways to spotlight live performances in the cantinas and give real performers a chance to grab attention if they have the talent for it. Sirii has thought of and suggested many improvements that would help us reach our Social and Performance goals within the system that we are being given.
You are not suggesting anything. You are only here to complain and bring others down it seems. Which is really a shame, because you used to care enough about Dancer to post constructive ideas. Now you just seem to want to make sure no one else is pleased no matter what is done.
Caerwynn
Tue Jul 26, 2005 12:17 pm
#25
Sadly this argument goes round and round, with more and more of us getting hot under the collar about it, but nothing changes. If anything there are more AFKers than ever because getting xp is more boring than ever, so few people are coming into the cantinas now to pass the time today with.
Didn't we hear that bots and recusive macros were 'definitely' going in June? June came and went, bots and recursive macros are still here.
Panthu
Tue Jul 26, 2005 12:28 pm
#26
I'm down with the whole "SOE wants to make money" thing. I agree with that. After all, all subscription based MMOs hope to earn a profit. Why would they not?
Still though, Entertainer professions were meant to bring in money from social players. They were not intended to be used as NPCs that players offered services through while they were away from the keys. There is already a whole huge profession set filling that desire: Merchant and all the crafting profs. 
Entertainer was meant to be something else. It was meant to be done during combat downtime in social settings with chatting and/or role playing - both of which require the player to be at the keys to partake in and enjoy.
Players looking to make fast XP, earn an easy buck, or advertise their wares all would have other options even if Entertainer was taken out of the game. So no money is actually being earned there. These people would do it with some other template if this one wasn't an option.
The best way to make money off of these profs has been and always will be to make sure that the social players are having a good time.