Dancer Archive
Thread: Would it be so bad....
meeuki wrote:
but doesn't that scenario shut out the single dancer who isn't part of the entertainer group? ie dancer/musician combo giving buffs to 18 people... a single dancer doesn't add anything to their buffs currently, so there's no incentive to invite, likewise that solo dancer/musician may not get many customers, since the competing group is covering both bases.
if that lone dancer could buff all 3 stats, but the large group buffed all 3 and more, wouldn't the dancer still be able to make a buck from people who just need the buff, and not the best buff?
i'm saying, moreso than currently.
meeuki wrote:
also, we are talking about private buffbots when we talk about doctor/dancer combos. i don't really see private buffbots as having as big a detrimental impact to entertainers as npc city cantina buffbots, which generally cannot buff all of your ham. (except maybe on dathomir) so does worrying about them really constitute making them the most important reason why not to do allow buffing of all 3 stats?
Actually, I would say private buffbots are probably the greater problem.
It allows a person to "play" (ha ha ha ha) their character from server up to server down, in the same spot, without breaks for food, drink, bathroom, or whatever a real human deals with. So, people always know they can go there, and the little robot is ready and willing to provide them their benefit.
People love knowing when they go to coordinate xyz, there's the happy buffbot where it always is, ready to give them their benefit without any real interaction. It's the ultimate in convenience. People will always take the easiest route possible to get the desired benefit in the game. Would you bother looking in your friend's list or searching for an Entertainer when you know you can go to -3400 1000 only 1700m away and use a bot? The waypoint's on your onscreen waypoint monitor, all it takes is a turn of the Swoop. You know (pretty much) the buff will work, you know how much it costs, you know it'll be there.
Which is nice for them, but junk for people really playing the profession - who in this game necessarily wants to always be in the same spot, day in and day out, for months and months and months? Who would play a game like that? Who could play a game like that - aside from a bot running a macro?
I do some marathon gaming, but 23 hours a day from server up to server down for months in the same little house in the gamewill - well, make me lose my job and my sanity. It's not humanly possible.
Warryyr wrote:
meeuki wrote:
kirah_ashlin wrote:
meeuki wrote:
kirah_ashlin wrote:
We are two different professions. Why would we be expected to do the same thing. I dance. Roho plays music. I buff mind. He buffs secondaries. We work together well. It doesn't benefit either of us to buff each other's specialty.
Chill - it only take 8 minutes to get both buffs (and if the devs ever address the duo-buff bug we've had since Pub 9 it will only take 4 for both).
Message Edited by kirah_ashlin on 10-20-2004 06:39 AM
That's nice you make a good duo, but you didn't answer my questions. Sadly, it's difficult to find a good duo alot of the times, if at all.
I gave you an answer based on the entertainer point of view - not that of the combat player. We are meant to be viable, interative and social. Our profession was not originally created as a resource for PvP or PvE combat use and convenience. Buffs were created "for" usto provide ameans of incomeandto intergrate us further into the game community.Buffing was supposed to make us valued by our fellow players.Ifmusicians and dancers were to have the same buffing abilities our dependency upon each other's profession would besignaficantlyreduced. We are not hereto be at the beck and call of combatants whenever they want us and then be ignored when they don't. We are here to provide a social, roleplaying, and interactive alternative to the kill-kill-kill aspects of the game.
As far as why our buffs do not match that of doctors - well, you'd have to take that up with the dev team because we don't know either. We can't even buff ourselves.
Your main server is Bria. Put my and Roho's names down on your friends list. I dare say there are plenty more willing to be added - just check out the stickied lists by servers on the dancer and musician forums. Bria has a vibrant live entertainer community.
Message Edited by kirah_ashlin on 10-20-2004 11:46 AM
ok. i was a master dancer before you registered on these forums. so the condesention can just be thrown right out. the thread isn't about being at the beck and call of combat professions, nor is it about the social aspect of dancing, it's about a mechanic available to entertainers and the pros and cons of modifying it.
lecture somewhere else, or at least lecture on topic. as far as why should you buff your partner's specialties, why not? it's easier for everyone. what about a mechanic to give you a superior buff to compensate for both of you buffing the same stats?
I didn't findkirah'spost condescending. In fact, I found your comment "I was Master Dancer before you registered on these forums" to be quite condescending and somewhat arrogant. Date of forum registration doesn't necessarily make anyone's opinions more or less valid, in my experience. Just because she might be telling you something you already know doesn't mean she's aware of how familiar you are with all of these subjects. Just my 2 cents on that.
I also didn'tfind her post particularly "lecture-ly" and she did discuss why she not want to buff secondaries as well asprimaries - interdependence between the classes. Do you wish you could buy your droid and your weapon from the same crafter? Maybe. Or, maybe all crafted items could get put into one crafting profession? It'd make it easier to find the crafter, sure. But the game would lose some atmosphere and character.
Anyhow, on to my opinion on the subject.
Allowing Dancers ORMusicians to buff all 3 Mind stats would drastically alter the current gameplay experience ofboth professions. Though it would add the benefit of having to find just one person to buff your Mind across the board, it would serve to confuse the buffing public even more than they already are confused regarding Mind buffs. And, more than likely, buffbots would have an easier time running their macros and would become more prevalent, since learning just one profession would serve the benefit of what takes 2 professions now. In other words, someone could "moonlight" as an AFK buffbot Dancer, and provide an even more valuable service to the public with no effort - all without dedicating the skillpoints a full Mind buff takes right now. People would probably migrate towards using Dancers all the time, more than likely female Dancers, and Musicians could get marginalized.
I think the main reason the Mind buffing was split between the Entertainer types is so that the patrons are more likely to hang out in cantinas longer, and talk with fellow players. Cantinas make all sorts of players congregate and spend some down time in a definite spot. Yes, it's a timesink. But so are shuttlewaits and lots of other things in this game. It does, however, provide a chance for people to relay info about the game, discuss recent events/hunts/resources, etc.
Although eliminating the need for 2 Entertainers to get full Mind buffs would make things faster (and maybe a bit more convenient) for Combat types, there's something to be said for the Devs resisting the temptation of implementing a "fast food drive-thru"mentality for Mind buffs. Hanging out in a cantina isn't a big deal, some downtime from fighting is a good thing, and the chance to RP and interact with other players is a golden opportunity which is lost to those who start watching/listening and then say "AFK for awhile."
I've met quite a few great people in this game inside of cantinas (while playing a Combat character) and in that time, there's usually someone crabbing about how long the cantina visit takes, or how long buffs take for Mind (is it done yet.....is it done yet....how much more time....AFK, send /tell when the buff's done). So, I really feel like, for the most part, having to hang out twice as long for Mind buffs (dance and then music) is a good thing, and fosters a movie-like scene in the cantinas where varied people are hanging out for various purposes.
Bottom line: I think that making Dancers OR Musicians buff all 3 stats would be more convenient for Combat folks. But, it would also serve to be detrimental to the game experience and the sense of community that can develop within a cantina during a visit. It would also give buffbots an advantage of being less of a "burden" to get the skills for buffing. We'd probably see a lot more "moonlighting" buffbots who could offer full Mind buffs, and thus be more valuable to the playerbase.
Ummm, yeah. I'm done. I guess.
you probably didn't find it condescending because you weren't the person who made the post, nor were you the person who was automatically labeled a combat profession intruding on a social forum. the fact is i was discussing mechanics, not whatever alterior motives she ascribed to me. someone discussing mechanics does not automatically equate to someone not familiar with these forums, or the profession. yes, i was being condescending in my reply, but it was definately intentional and responding in kind.
i do agree with fostering an atmosphere that encourages players to visit the cantina. i think the "timesink" is an important aspect of the game, and i also think players, on the whole, do not mind the time they spend in <b>player city cantinas </b> with their friends. that being said, i disagree when you state that allowing players to buff all 3 stats would further confuse people. i think simplification of the buffing process by allowing you to visit only one entertainer would open up new oppertunities for players to experience buffs.
as i stated in my original reply, it can sometimes be a hassle to find two entertainers. i've experienced the downsides to this as an entertainer explaining musician buffing, and as a combattant looking for them. the more players that find entertainer buffs to be easy to get and accessable, the more players are going to want them. right now, even with the "ease of use" buffbots, entertainer buffs outside guild run player halls aren't all that accessable. you cannot rely on NPC cantinas, it's a bigger timesink to request buffs from a friend, it's also, despite their protestations, a hassle because i personally always thought "man, i know i'm burdoning him/her."
it just seems to me, that buffbots aside, since that's really a separate problem that's entirely up to the developers to solve (which they *could* do quickly and easily, but choose not to) buffing all 3 stats would empower single entertainers to actually be able to offer a more usefull, and faster service, plus,with the proper bonuses, could empower groups of performers as well.
rayill wrote:
meeuki wrote:
also, we are talking about private buffbots when we talk about doctor/dancer combos. i don't really see private buffbots as having as big a detrimental impact to entertainers as npc city cantina buffbots, which generally cannot buff all of your ham. (except maybe on dathomir) so does worrying about them really constitute making them the most important reason why not to do allow buffing of all 3 stats?Considering the way players have already found to manipulate the current macro system, I think that yes we would have to worry about this as a major factor. All it takes is a sophisticated macro and a house near the city limits. All they would have to do is have something spamming their location to find out where they are. It will also increase the prevalence of Guild bots and whatnot, which are also a detriment to our professions. Just because they are not in the public cantinas does not make their existence less harmful. People will still seek them out over us since they can buff all 9 stats while we can only buff 3. Again, the mentality of the players is "Which is better? Which is faster? Why waste me time going to the doctor and the dancer when I can go to one person and get it all?".
again though, it's fully possible now for a bot to buff all 9 stats, and do an more than adequate job of it. however, all-in-one buffbots are not prevailant anywhere, as far as i can tell. i've never even seen one on gorath, to tell you the truth, nor have i seen many musician/doctor or dancer/doctor buffbot combos.
and again, do bonuses to our profession have to pass through the "what-if-macro" filter? i don't think they should.
meeuki wrote:
also, we are talking about private buffbots when we talk about doctor/dancer combos. i don't really see private buffbots as having as big a detrimental impact to entertainers as npc city cantina buffbots, which generally cannot buff all of your ham. (except maybe on dathomir) so does worrying about them really constitute making them the most important reason why not to do allow buffing of all 3 stats?
The whole issue around bots is so defining and key to every issue we face. Yes those private bots in the middle of nowhere do affect us. They affect us because they don't stay private, people spread the word and more use them. Those same people then get trained to expect entertainers as a whole to act in a certain way. Because of that I get people coming up to me, a person obviously present because I'm chatting to that person and others in spatial, and treating me like an automated despenser. I get random group invites, I get demands to invite them, I get told to "buff me now because I tipped you", I get people taking a buff and simply walking away with no tip andno thank you (the most common occurance), I get treated like a machine.
Regardless of the income loss to robots it is the training and attitude that is affecting entertainers the most. This isn't because a majority of players are jerks. In fact the majority are decent and when you make a polite statement that shows them how they are acting most will get it and be polite back to you. Its about the inordinate amount of time I have to spend making this obvious and the few very bad apples that can quickly spoil an entire evening.
I have one friend that is still very hurt from the obnoxious, sexually belittling, and domineering comments of one jerk two night ago. That person probably wouldn't act that way in real life but the low esteem given the services we provide make him feel safe to do it in game. He knows he can find a hidden buff bot and get all he wants from our profession without worry so why even bother to be nice.
meeuki wrote:
rayill wrote:
meeuki wrote:
also, we are talking about private buffbots when we talk about doctor/dancer combos. i don't really see private buffbots as having as big a detrimental impact to entertainers as npc city cantina buffbots, which generally cannot buff all of your ham. (except maybe on dathomir) so does worrying about them really constitute making them the most important reason why not to do allow buffing of all 3 stats?
Considering the way players have already found to manipulate the current macro system, I think that yes we would have to worry about this as a major factor. All it takes is a sophisticated macro and a house near the city limits. All they would have to do is have something spamming their location to find out where they are. It will also increase the prevalence of Guild bots and whatnot, which are also a detriment to our professions. Just because they are not in the public cantinas does not make their existence less harmful. People will still seek them out over us since they can buff all 9 stats while we can only buff 3. Again, the mentality of the players is "Which is better? Which is faster? Why waste me time going to the doctor and the dancer when I can go to one person and get it all?".
again though, it's fully possible now for a bot to buff all 9 stats, and do an more than adequate job of it. however, all-in-one buffbots are not prevailant anywhere, as far as i can tell. i've never even seen one on gorath, to tell you the truth, nor have i seen many musician/doctor or dancer/doctor buffbot combos.
and again, do bonuses to our profession have to pass through the "what-if-macro" filter? i don't think they should.
You are right. Bonuses to our profession shouldn't have to pass through the filter. The key word is shouldn't. Gorath may not have any buffbots that you are aware of, but I can walk you to a cantina on Dant, the very heaven of solo groups, and show you a player city cantina that is set specifically for this purpose. This very same player city is also setup to be a haven for all sorts of people with multitudes of player bases, both Rebel and Imperial. Gorath may not have aprevalent problem with this, but Kettemoor does. It was only just recently that it became bad on my server too. There are many other servers where it is far worse.
We'd love to not have to pass these ideas through the filter, but many of us are on servers were this is a problem that we have to worry about every time something new comes out for our profession.
LyteFoot wrote:
meeuki wrote:
also, we are talking about private buffbots when we talk about doctor/dancer combos. i don't really see private buffbots as having as big a detrimental impact to entertainers as npc city cantina buffbots, which generally cannot buff all of your ham. (except maybe on dathomir) so does worrying about them really constitute making them the most important reason why not to do allow buffing of all 3 stats?The whole issue around bots is so defining and key to every issue we face. Yes those private bots in the middle of nowhere do affect us. They affect us because they don't stay private, people spread the word and more use them. Those same people then get trained to expect entertainers as a whole to act in a certain way. Because of that I get people coming up to me, a person obviously present because I'm chatting to that person and others in spatial, and treating me like an automated despenser. I get random group invites, I get demands to invite them, I get told to "buff me now because I tipped you", I get people taking a buff and simply walking away with no tip andno thank you (the most common occurance), I get treated like a machine.
Regardless of the income loss to robots it is the training and attitude that is affecting entertainers the most. This isn't because a majority of players are jerks. In fact the majority are decent and when you make a polite statement that shows them how they are acting most will get it and be polite back to you. Its about the inordinate amount of time I have to spend making this obvious and the few very bad apples that can quickly spoil an entire evening.
I have one friend that is still very hurt from the obnoxious, sexually belittling, and domineering comments of one jerk two night ago. That person probably wouldn't act that way in real life but the low esteem given the services we provide make him feel safe to do it in game. He knows he can find a hidden buff bot and get all he wants from our profession without worry so why even bother to be nice.
right, but automatically placing every bonus to our profession through this "buffbot filter" doesn't help us any either. it just keeps things stagnant. furthermore, the buffbot is not responsible for kids lacking respect. you have to understand that this is a game that is probably made up predominantly of 15-25 year olds with them depending on services from a profession that (i assume) generally attacts the older, more mature end of that spectrum.
if combat is subject to the exact same insolence, then other aspects of the game are going to be as well. the answer, i believe is to further empower entertainers, and yes, part of this is the removal of the buffbot. another part of this is CSR's actually doing their jobs.
but i don't believe weighing supposed improvements on our profession against it's propensity to be abused by a buffbot is a smart thing to do. yes, a change like this would slightly empower a buffbot. but no matter what, the buffbot problem is something that is ultimately up to the developers to solve, and they could do so very, VERY easily. with a hotfix even, and a low impact one at that.
the topic at hand isn't whether or not buffbots are going to further affect you, or even if bonuses to your profession will empower buffbots and if that will further affect you. right now, as it stands, the buffbot already has an overwealming advantage to players who perfer them. that should not keep you from improving the profession in anticipation for the day when they are removed. you have to assume that day is coming as an entertainer, and if you assume it's not coming, then you also must assume the death of the profession.
or at least be indifferent towards empowering the bots.
rayill wrote:
meeuki wrote:
rayill wrote:
meeuki wrote:
also, we are talking about private buffbots when we talk about doctor/dancer combos. i don't really see private buffbots as having as big a detrimental impact to entertainers as npc city cantina buffbots, which generally cannot buff all of your ham. (except maybe on dathomir) so does worrying about them really constitute making them the most important reason why not to do allow buffing of all 3 stats?Considering the way players have already found to manipulate the current macro system, I think that yes we would have to worry about this as a major factor. All it takes is a sophisticated macro and a house near the city limits. All they would have to do is have something spamming their location to find out where they are. It will also increase the prevalence of Guild bots and whatnot, which are also a detriment to our professions. Just because they are not in the public cantinas does not make their existence less harmful. People will still seek them out over us since they can buff all 9 stats while we can only buff 3. Again, the mentality of the players is "Which is better? Which is faster? Why waste me time going to the doctor and the dancer when I can go to one person and get it all?".
again though, it's fully possible now for a bot to buff all 9 stats, and do an more than adequate job of it. however, all-in-one buffbots are not prevailant anywhere, as far as i can tell. i've never even seen one on gorath, to tell you the truth, nor have i seen many musician/doctor or dancer/doctor buffbot combos.
and again, do bonuses to our profession have to pass through the "what-if-macro" filter? i don't think they should.You are right. Bonuses to our profession shouldn't have to pass through the filter. The key word is shouldn't. Gorath may not have any buffbots that you are aware of, but I can walk you to a cantina on Dant, the very heaven of solo groups, and show you a player city cantina that is set specifically for this purpose. This very same player city is also setup to be a haven for all sorts of people with multitudes of player bases, both Rebel and Imperial. Gorath may not have aprevalent problem with this, but Kettemoor does. It was only just recently that it became bad on my server too. There are many other servers where it is far worse.
We'd love to not have to pass these ideas through the filter, but many of us are on servers were this is a problem that we have to worry about every time something new comes out for our profession.
see my point above. constantly worrying about additions and how they might be abused assumes that the devs have no plans to remove the buffbots. everyone in here who believes they are a detriment has to assume that they will be removed. i can't imagine how defeatist things would be otherwise.
we should approach improvements from the mindset that it sucks now, but is bound to be fixed, thus let's work on things that might set us up for a fun experience when that does happen.
meeuki wrote:
LyteFoot wrote:
meeuki wrote:
also, we are talking about private buffbots when we talk about doctor/dancer combos. i don't really see private buffbots as having as big a detrimental impact to entertainers as npc city cantina buffbots, which generally cannot buff all of your ham. (except maybe on dathomir) so does worrying about them really constitute making them the most important reason why not to do allow buffing of all 3 stats?
The whole issue around bots is so defining and key to every issue we face. Yes those private bots in the middle of nowhere do affect us. They affect us because they don't stay private, people spread the word and more use them. Those same people then get trained to expect entertainers as a whole to act in a certain way. Because of that I get people coming up to me, a person obviously present because I'm chatting to that person and others in spatial, and treating me like an automated despenser. I get random group invites, I get demands to invite them, I get told to "buff me now because I tipped you", I get people taking a buff and simply walking away with no tip andno thank you (the most common occurance), I get treated like a machine.
Regardless of the income loss to robots it is the training and attitude that is affecting entertainers the most. This isn't because a majority of players are jerks. In fact the majority are decent and when you make a polite statement that shows them how they are acting most will get it and be polite back to you. Its about the inordinate amount of time I have to spend making this obvious and the few very bad apples that can quickly spoil an entire evening.
I have one friend that is still very hurt from the obnoxious, sexually belittling, and domineering comments of one jerk two night ago. That person probably wouldn't act that way in real life but the low esteem given the services we provide make him feel safe to do it in game. He knows he can find a hidden buff bot and get all he wants from our profession without worry so why even bother to be nice.
right, but automatically placing every bonus to our profession through this "buffbot filter" doesn't help us any either. it just keeps things stagnant. furthermore, the buffbot is not responsible for kids lacking respect. you have to understand that this is a game that is probably made up predominantly of 15-25 year olds with them depending on services from a profession that (i assume) generally attacts the older, more mature end of that spectrum.
if combat is subject to the exact same insolence, then other aspects of the game are going to be as well. the answer, i believe is to further empower entertainers, and yes, part of this is the removal of the buffbot. another part of this is CSR's actually doing their jobs.
but i don't believe weighing supposed improvements on our profession against it's propensity to be abused by a buffbot is a smart thing to do. yes, a change like this would slightly empower a buffbot. but no matter what, the buffbot problem is something that is ultimately up to the developers to solve, and they could do so very, VERY easily. with a hotfix even, and a low impact one at that.
the topic at hand isn't whether or not buffbots are going to further affect you, or even if bonuses to your profession will empower buffbots and if that will further affect you. right now, as it stands, the buffbot already has an overwealming advantage to players who perfer them. that should not keep you from improving the profession in anticipation for the day when they are removed. you have to assume that day is coming as an entertainer, and if you assume it's not coming, then you also must assume the death of the profession.
or at least be indifferent towards empowering the bots.
meeuki wrote:
If dancers AND musicians buffed all 3 stats? Instead of dancers one, and musians the other two.
)
meeuki wrote:
drygo, all indications seem to point to them *not* removing recursive macros now, because of the backlash from the community. or if it is done, it'll be done in a low impact way that doesn't affect buffbotting, and certainly, i don't expect that fix anytime soon. maybe i'm wrong and it will come after JTL... but i seriously doubt it.
i stand by my assertion that obfuscation from this community resulted in /join not being removed too. and you make my point for me when you say that many solutions were proposed. i don't think this developer team can deal with many solutions. i think one easy solution needs to be harped on over and over and over for them to get it, and one without a huge backlash from the remainder of the community.
if you read back over that recursive macro thread, the majority of it consisted of
entertainer: yes! get rid of macros, yay!
kids: don't get rid of macros! booo!
other professions: wait a second, why not just get rid of /join? i use recursive macros for X.
kids: don't get rid of macros! booo!
entertainer: no! get rid of macros! i can't wait!
kids: don't get rid of macros! booo!
devs read that and come away with nothing. again, i could be wrong. it's possible they have a concrete plan in the works and aims to implement it, and are just keeping things on the DL. i'll gladly eat crow if so.
Well, Tiggs did say a couple weeks (I think) ago, that they were still planning on doing this. And, while the devs have problems with time and resource issues, usually when they say something is going to happen, it will. It may not be for another year, but I do believe they fully intend to remove the recursive macro. And, as I said above, I think the reason for doing so is server stability. And, when it comes to server stability, they aren't going to take what we have to say under much consideration. They nerfed the merchant precisely because of server stability. It wasn't because some merchants were abusing storage or anything like that. They had to do it for server stability, so they did it. The same holds true with removing recursive macros. And, that's why despite all the people who keep saying "there are ways around it," I firmly believe that the devs will come up with something that can't be gotten around. Because otherwise, in their quest to increase server stability they would have wasted a whole lot of time on nothing. They *must* end the recursive macro and extended afk play, not for us, but for their servers. And so, they will, no matter what the backlash.
It's also why they haven't done the simple removal of /join. That would could down on a *heck* of a lot of buffbots, but we'd still have afk play. And, afk must be romoved, not for the benefit of the game, but for the servers. (Their thinking, not mine.)
Of course, I could be wrong as well, and I would absolutely love to be proven wrong. I would gladly eat crow tomorrow as well if I see a little announcement that the /join command was removed.
meeuki wrote:
why not make a concerted effort to fix the issue before the release of a product that will likely cause an influx of people back into the game, some of them undeniably with aims of being entertainers.