Dancer Archive
Thread: Would it be so bad....
meeuki wrote:
i think you are misunderstanding my proposal, i think said dancer would be able to do 100% of mind *and* 100% of focus/willpower. the bonuses would come from additional group members, and likely an unspecified third mechanism to encourage ATK play or diversity, or whatever.
my point, against the assertion that this would be bad for competition, was that a single dancer could do it all, whereas now he cannot compete with a dancer/musician combo. like you said, players are generally happy with 75%. thus, players would be even happier with 100% from the lone dancer, BUT players would also be willing to pay a premium for the big buff group, which could theoretically give bonuses above 100%.
personally, as a combatant, if the large group was full, i'd take the solo competitor. or perhaps the solo competitor is cheaper... or perhaps there's something particular about them, who knows.
i have to conceed though, i don't have a solution for people flocking to dancers under this scenario. i'd personally pick the musician, since i don't particularly care about the sultry, scanitily clad, cantina vixens. but i think the solo musican would generally end up poorer than the solo dancer under my proposal.
meeuki wrote:
well i think we both know that's not going to happen anyway. it just confuses the hell out of me why not. i really think the servers can stand the limited amount of afk play occuring now that the hologrind is over. seems to me and end to /join would be the nail in the coffin.
meeuki wrote:
people afk for those odds? ugh.
Yes, because they don't have to be there
meeuki wrote:
people afk for those odds? ugh.
Heh...the combat ratio is 30 to 1. And, I admit that I can gain combat exp a lot quicker than dance exp. So a 30 to 1 combat exp would actually allow me to gain FS exp faster than the 10 to 1 dance exp if that's what I were going for. Nevertheless, 10 to 1 dance/musician/eh experience is definitely enough incentive for people to go afk. I mean, even if you only earned 300K dance exp overnight, combine that by doing it EVERY night for weeks...then you've earned yourself a whole lot of FS exp than if you hadn't done so.
meeuki wrote:
people afk for those odds? ugh.
Compared to having to be present for 9 to 1 odds on other professions, heck yes they do. I know, because they admit it freely, of 5 FS grinders in Theed. The AFK entertainer went down drastically for a few weeks between publish 9 and 10. Once it was out and people knew the new grind the AFK presence sky rocketed.
Thanks to uber buffs, uber armor, and AFK a person can cap their combat XP in 3 hours, turn it in, then go afk in the cantina to get the points while they sleep.
You completely read me wrong, but I'm not going to get into it with you. I will say that I do think you came to this forum with your mind made up before you even typed out your post. You don't come across as asking for opendiscussion, but rather to simply foster your own opinion. Since I told you something you didn't want to hear, you didn't like it. Sorry. I'm not getting into a useless argument between game mechanics and social play.
meeuki wrote:
Warryyr wrote:
meeuki wrote:
kirah_ashlin wrote:
meeuki wrote:
kirah_ashlin wrote:
We are two different professions. Why would we be expected to do the same thing. I dance. Roho plays music. I buff mind. He buffs secondaries. We work together well. It doesn't benefit either of us to buff each other's specialty.
Chill - it only take 8 minutes to get both buffs (and if the devs ever address the duo-buff bug we've had since Pub 9 it will only take 4 for both).
Message Edited by kirah_ashlin on 10-20-2004 06:39 AM
That's nice you make a good duo, but you didn't answer my questions. Sadly, it's difficult to find a good duo alot of the times, if at all.
I gave you an answer based on the entertainer point of view - not that of the combat player. We are meant to be viable, interative and social. Our profession was not originally created as a resource for PvP or PvE combat use and convenience. Buffs were created "for" usto provide ameans of incomeandto intergrate us further into the game community.Buffing was supposed to make us valued by our fellow players.Ifmusicians and dancers were to have the same buffing abilities our dependency upon each other's profession would besignaficantlyreduced. We are not hereto be at the beck and call of combatants whenever they want us and then be ignored when they don't. We are here to provide a social, roleplaying, and interactive alternative to the kill-kill-kill aspects of the game.
As far as why our buffs do not match that of doctors - well, you'd have to take that up with the dev team because we don't know either. We can't even buff ourselves.
Your main server is Bria. Put my and Roho's names down on your friends list. I dare say there are plenty more willing to be added - just check out the stickied lists by servers on the dancer and musician forums. Bria has a vibrant live entertainer community.
Message Edited by kirah_ashlin on 10-20-2004 11:46 AM
ok. i was a master dancer before you registered on these forums. so the condesention can just be thrown right out. the thread isn't about being at the beck and call of combat professions, nor is it about the social aspect of dancing, it's about a mechanic available to entertainers and the pros and cons of modifying it.
lecture somewhere else, or at least lecture on topic. as far as why should you buff your partner's specialties, why not? it's easier for everyone. what about a mechanic to give you a superior buff to compensate for both of you buffing the same stats?
I didn't findkirah'spost condescending. In fact, I found your comment "I was Master Dancer before you registered on these forums" to be quite condescending and somewhat arrogant. Date of forum registration doesn't necessarily make anyone's opinions more or less valid, in my experience. Just because she might be telling you something you already know doesn't mean she's aware of how familiar you are with all of these subjects. Just my 2 cents on that.
I also didn'tfind her post particularly "lecture-ly" and she did discuss why she not want to buff secondaries as well asprimaries - interdependence between the classes. Do you wish you could buy your droid and your weapon from the same crafter? Maybe. Or, maybe all crafted items could get put into one crafting profession? It'd make it easier to find the crafter, sure. But the game would lose some atmosphere and character.
Anyhow, on to my opinion on the subject.
Allowing Dancers ORMusicians to buff all 3 Mind stats would drastically alter the current gameplay experience ofboth professions. Though it would add the benefit of having to find just one person to buff your Mind across the board, it would serve to confuse the buffing public even more than they already are confused regarding Mind buffs. And, more than likely, buffbots would have an easier time running their macros and would become more prevalent, since learning just one profession would serve the benefit of what takes 2 professions now. In other words, someone could "moonlight" as an AFK buffbot Dancer, and provide an even more valuable service to the public with no effort - all without dedicating the skillpoints a full Mind buff takes right now. People would probably migrate towards using Dancers all the time, more than likely female Dancers, and Musicians could get marginalized.
I think the main reason the Mind buffing was split between the Entertainer types is so that the patrons are more likely to hang out in cantinas longer, and talk with fellow players. Cantinas make all sorts of players congregate and spend some down time in a definite spot. Yes, it's a timesink. But so are shuttlewaits and lots of other things in this game. It does, however, provide a chance for people to relay info about the game, discuss recent events/hunts/resources, etc.
Although eliminating the need for 2 Entertainers to get full Mind buffs would make things faster (and maybe a bit more convenient) for Combat types, there's something to be said for the Devs resisting the temptation of implementing a "fast food drive-thru"mentality for Mind buffs. Hanging out in a cantina isn't a big deal, some downtime from fighting is a good thing, and the chance to RP and interact with other players is a golden opportunity which is lost to those who start watching/listening and then say "AFK for awhile."
I've met quite a few great people in this game inside of cantinas (while playing a Combat character) and in that time, there's usually someone crabbing about how long the cantina visit takes, or how long buffs take for Mind (is it done yet.....is it done yet....how much more time....AFK, send /tell when the buff's done). So, I really feel like, for the most part, having to hang out twice as long for Mind buffs (dance and then music) is a good thing, and fosters a movie-like scene in the cantinas where varied people are hanging out for various purposes.
Bottom line: I think that making Dancers OR Musicians buff all 3 stats would be more convenient for Combat folks. But, it would also serve to be detrimental to the game experience and the sense of community that can develop within a cantina during a visit. It would also give buffbots an advantage of being less of a "burden" to get the skills for buffing. We'd probably see a lot more "moonlighting" buffbots who could offer full Mind buffs, and thus be more valuable to the playerbase.
Ummm, yeah. I'm done. I guess.
you probably didn't find it condescending because you weren't the person who made the post, nor were you the person who was automatically labeled a combat profession intruding on a social forum. the fact is i was discussing mechanics, not whatever alterior motives she ascribed to me. someone discussing mechanics does not automatically equate to someone not familiar with these forums, or the profession. yes, i was being condescending in my reply, but it was definately intentional and responding in kind.
i do agree with fostering an atmosphere that encourages players to visit the cantina. i think the "timesink" is an important aspect of the game, and i also think players, on the whole, do not mind the time they spend in player city cantinas with their friends. that being said, i disagree when you state that allowing players to buff all 3 stats would further confuse people. i think simplification of the buffing process by allowing you to visit only one entertainer would open up new oppertunities for players to experience buffs.
as i stated in my original reply, it can sometimes be a hassle to find two entertainers. i've experienced the downsides to this as an entertainer explaining musician buffing, and as a combattant looking for them. the more players that find entertainer buffs to be easy to get and accessable, the more players are going to want them. right now, even with the "ease of use" buffbots, entertainer buffs outside guild run player halls aren't all that accessable. you cannot rely on NPC cantinas, it's a bigger timesink to request buffs from a friend, it's also, despite their protestations, a hassle because i personally always thought "man, i know i'm burdoning him/her."
it just seems to me, that buffbots aside, since that's really a separate problem that's entirely up to the developers to solve (which they *could* do quickly and easily, but choose not to) buffing all 3 stats would empower single entertainers to actually be able to offer a more usefull, and faster service, plus,with the proper bonuses, could empower groups of performers as well.
Message Edited by kirah_ashlin on 10-20-2004 11:31 PM
meeuki wrote:
Reachwind wrote:
The most important reason to keep things as is....
All of these alt characters being used to supply guilds with buffs would suddenly be able to free up extra skill points to master Doctor for instance.
It would be possible to have a single buff bot or played buffing only character capable of enchancing every single stat to its fullest. Something that is not possible now. In other words.... It creates yet another game imbalance.
in all fairness, you can create an adequate bot that cover all bases now. 75% buffs (without tapes) to mind and secondaries, plus 3/3/3/0 doctor. granted, it's not a pvp powerhouse buffbot granting you 3500/3500/2200 ham, but it's fairly close. 2500/2500/1900.
it's true, it would be easier for people to do this though. 1000 points to H/A and 300 to mind though, is that worthy of being the "most important" reason not to have this? i could see the other reasons being more important.
It is that important though. The devs DO NOT and HAVE NEVER wanted to create a one character can do all situation. Think about it for a minute. The reason docs can't buff mind stats is that they don't want tht power in that character's hands. The reason a MM/MD can't also master Doc is that they did not want this power in one character's hands.
Yes, you can get 75% or three quarters of a full buff and yes this is enough for some people..... However you can't get a max buff in all stats from one character and this is set that way for a reason. The game is just not designed with that ever intended.
Message Edited by Reachwind on 10-20-2004 09:48 PM