Dancer Archive
Thread: Would it be so bad....
again, i have to stress, bringing "it's not our duty to buff" into a thread like this is misguided. it's a discussion of mechanics, not an oppertunity to pontificate or be defensive.
meeuki wrote:
a few of you are also assuming that the only motivation for this is ease of use. i potentially see benefits beyond that. it's not about making things easier for me, the stereotypical combat profession invading your quiet digruntled community, i have a dancer and a musician and i personally think one person being able to do it all would make me more accessable and empower both my professions further.
again, i have to stress, bringing "it's not our duty to buff" into a thread like this is misguided. it's a discussion of mechanics, not an oppertunity to pontificate or be defensive.
I disagree with you about being able to buff all three stats would help our professions. It would marginalize the Musician class more than anything else. Most players already have a hard time finding a Musician to buff their secondaries, but giving Dancers the ability to buff these stats would render the Musician's ability to earn money through the ingame mechanics completely useless. The majority of the players seeking these buffs are PvP and high end PvE oriented players. An even larger portion of those players are males. They'll choose the Dancer that can buff all of those stats over a Musician every time. Why? Because a larger number of Dancers are female. Because a large number of these female Dancers are also made to look extremely attractive. Because these very same attractive female Dancers also wear skimpy clothing. Not many Musicians, male or female, can compete with that.
The mechanics you suggest would make the buffing process easier, but it would not make the game better. Like it or not, buffbots are a crucial element to these mechanics at this point in the game. Increasing the Dancer buffbots to be able to also do Musician buffbots would make our situation even worse. This mechanic change would also increase the likelyhood of coming across a Dancer/Doctor buffbot. The proposed mechanic change would allow a person to be able to buff all 9 stats fully if they were Master Dancer/Master Doctor. This would further hurt the game, rather than enhance it. The theory behind the idea is very good, but the probable impacts from the implementation would be disatorous for alot of people.
Of course, I still stand by my position that the damage done to these professions is far too great at this point. They should either remove the entire mechanics of buffing or get ridof the professions. Don't get me wrong, I love dancing, but mechanics wise, we cannot be viable in this game - why should we be here?
a few other people on this thread insist that buffs are entirely secondary to the game experience, thus marginalizing musicians doesn't seem to be of importance considering they'd still be doing what they do now. are they wrong?
i personally don't see more or less musicians in public cantinas, but private cantinas do seem to migrate towards just dancer buffs, as if mind buffs alone were more important. another question, what if mechanics were in place to encourage stronger buffs if dancers were grouped with musicians, and vice versa? would that overcome the impact of adolesence? heh.
if mechanics were in place to encourage that, would buffing all 3 stats have as strong a negative impact on musicians? furthermore, what if mind buffs are rendered less important post combat revamp, where the mind will be % targetable? will the paradim shift to marginalize dancers?
LyteFoot wrote:I don't think your main motive is ease of use but it is certainly one of them. If an entertainer can buff all three stats then I think one of two things will happen.1. buff bots will be that much more prevelant (it takes less time to master one skill) or2. entertainers will become like docs, one or two per cantina with long lines.I like the interdependence of the classes. I also like the fellowship built between the classes. The mechanics of giving all buffs to both entertainer classes doesn't increase their value in my opinion, it does the opposite and devalues them even further. Think of how many skill points are consumed to provide all three HAM buffs. You would cut that in half in addition to making the two classes independent of each other.I would prefer to see them improve the interface so that we can reliably apply buffs without having to depend on the customer doing the right things in the right order. I would also like to see that my musician buffs actually took instead of relying on the word of the customer. Far to often I'm reapplying buffs to a person because they "didn't work". I find this is more prevelant in experienced combat players which makes me wonder if they aren't buff stacking instead but I have no way to know. An improved interface has far more value than giving all the buffs to both classes.
i'm not sure why there would be long lines, if anything lines encourage competition, and a single musician doing all 3 stats would facilitate players getting more one on one face time with a particular entertainer or group of entertainers. consider ease of use for both you and the player, ease of use translates into more people willing to pay for services.
i do agree, an improved interface is a badly, BADLY needed addition.
again, what about incentives to encourage bonuses for group performances? would that counteract the assumed detriments of a single entertainer buffing all 3 stat?
meeuki wrote:
that is a good point about a dancer/doctor buffbot and about marginalizing musicians. i assume the buffbot thing will eventually be fixed, it's obvious it can't continue (at least i think it's obvious). i question why /join wasn't removed... it seems to be a simple, low impact fix.
a few other people on this thread insist that buffs are entirely secondary to the game experience, thus marginalizing musicians doesn't seem to be of importance considering they'd still be doing what they do now. are they wrong?
i personally don't see more or less musicians in public cantinas, but private cantinas do seem to migrate towards just dancer buffs, as if mind buffs alone were more important. another question, what if mechanics were in place to encourage stronger buffs if dancers were grouped with musicians, and vice versa? would that overcome the impact of adolesence? heh.
if mechanics were in place to encourage that, would buffing all 3 stats have as strong a negative impact on musicians? furthermore, what if mind buffs are rendered less important post combat revamp, where the mind will be % targetable? will the paradim shift to marginalize dancers?
Since I've paid relatively little attention to the marginal bits and pieces of the proposed Combat Balance, I can't really begin to speculate on the effects and possible paradigm shifts that it may have on either profession.
Right now, I'm not sure when the proposed recursive macro removal will ever take place, so I can't be optimistic about mechanics that will not include them.
It seems a bit redundant to let Dancers and Musicians both buff the same three stats to only require them to be grouped together to give the "better" buff. Afterall, giving both classes the ability to buff all the stats without each other fosters independence of the professions. Requiring them to be grouped with one another to offer the best buff (which is what the players will want) will make them dependent. Independence and dependence both work against each other. The game is supposed to seek interdependency between the classes.
I think mechanically the buff system would be better off leaving the Dancers buffing the mind pool, Musicians buffing the secondaries, and some sort of bonus granted to live buffers to help give them the edge. They should also reinstate the ability to letboth classes buff at the same time (like Kirahmentioned).Musicians and Dancers would be interdependent in this scenario, and the live buffers would have the edge in buffs making them a viable and interdependent part of the economy.
All of these alt characters being used to supply guilds with buffs would suddenly be able to free up extra skill points to master Doctor for instance.
It would be possible to have a single buff bot or played buffing only character capable of enchancing every single stat to its fullest. Something that is not possible now. In other words.... It creates yet another game imbalance.
if that lone dancer could buff all 3 stats, but the large group buffed all 3 and more, wouldn't the dancer still be able to make a buck from people who just need the buff, and not the best buff?
i'm saying, moreso than currently.
Reachwind wrote:
The most important reason to keep things as is....
All of these alt characters being used to supply guilds with buffs would suddenly be able to free up extra skill points to master Doctor for instance.
It would be possible to have a single buff bot or played buffing only character capable of enchancing every single stat to its fullest. Something that is not possible now. In other words.... It creates yet another game imbalance.
I completely agree (and mentioned myself!) with you here. Have some pretty gold star stickers!
Reachwind wrote:
The most important reason to keep things as is....
All of these alt characters being used to supply guilds with buffs would suddenly be able to free up extra skill points to master Doctor for instance.
It would be possible to have a single buff bot or played buffing only character capable of enchancing every single stat to its fullest. Something that is not possible now. In other words.... It creates yet another game imbalance.
in all fairness, you can create an adequate bot that cover all bases now. 75% buffs (without tapes) to mind and secondaries, plus 3/3/3/0 doctor. granted, it's not a pvp powerhouse buffbot granting you 3500/3500/2200 ham, but it's fairly close. 2500/2500/1900.
it's true, it would be easier for people to do this though. 1000 points to H/A and 300 to mind though, is that worthy of being the "most important" reason not to have this? i could see the other reasons being more important.
meeuki wrote:
kirah_ashlin wrote:
meeuki wrote:
kirah_ashlin wrote:
We are two different professions. Why would we be expected to do the same thing. I dance. Roho plays music. I buff mind. He buffs secondaries. We work together well. It doesn't benefit either of us to buff each other's specialty.
Chill - it only take 8 minutes to get both buffs (and if the devs ever address the duo-buff bug we've had since Pub 9 it will only take 4 for both).
Message Edited by kirah_ashlin on 10-20-2004 06:39 AM
That's nice you make a good duo, but you didn't answer my questions. Sadly, it's difficult to find a good duo alot of the times, if at all.
I gave you an answer based on the entertainer point of view - not that of the combat player. We are meant to be viable, interative and social. Our profession was not originally created as a resource for PvP or PvE combat use and convenience. Buffs were created "for" usto provide ameans of incomeandto intergrate us further into the game community.Buffing was supposed to make us valued by our fellow players.Ifmusicians and dancers were to have the same buffing abilities our dependency upon each other's profession would besignaficantlyreduced. We are not hereto be at the beck and call of combatants whenever they want us and then be ignored when they don't. We are here to provide a social, roleplaying, and interactive alternative to the kill-kill-kill aspects of the game.
As far as why our buffs do not match that of doctors - well, you'd have to take that up with the dev team because we don't know either. We can't even buff ourselves.
Your main server is Bria. Put my and Roho's names down on your friends list. I dare say there are plenty more willing to be added - just check out the stickied lists by servers on the dancer and musician forums. Bria has a vibrant live entertainer community.
Message Edited by kirah_ashlin on 10-20-2004 11:46 AM
ok. i was a master dancer before you registered on these forums. so the condesention can just be thrown right out. the thread isn't about being at the beck and call of combat professions, nor is it about the social aspect of dancing, it's about a mechanic available to entertainers and the pros and cons of modifying it.
lecture somewhere else, or at least lecture on topic. as far as why should you buff your partner's specialties, why not? it's easier for everyone. what about a mechanic to give you a superior buff to compensate for both of you buffing the same stats?
I didn't findkirah'spost condescending. In fact, I found your comment "I was Master Dancer before you registered on these forums" to be quite condescending and somewhat arrogant. Date of forum registration doesn't necessarily make anyone's opinions more or less valid, in my experience. Just because she might be telling you something you already know doesn't mean she's aware of how familiar you are with all of these subjects. Just my 2 cents on that.
I also didn'tfind her post particularly "lecture-ly" and she did discuss why she not want to buff secondaries as well asprimaries - interdependence between the classes. Do you wish you could buy your droid and your weapon from the same crafter? Maybe. Or, maybe all crafted items could get put into one crafting profession? It'd make it easier to find the crafter, sure. But the game would lose some atmosphere and character.
Anyhow, on to my opinion on the subject.
Allowing Dancers ORMusicians to buff all 3 Mind stats would drastically alter the current gameplay experience ofboth professions. Though it would add the benefit of having to find just one person to buff your Mind across the board, it would serve to confuse the buffing public even more than they already are confused regarding Mind buffs. And, more than likely, buffbots would have an easier time running their macros and would become more prevalent, since learning just one profession would serve the benefit of what takes 2 professions now. In other words, someone could "moonlight" as an AFK buffbot Dancer, and provide an even more valuable service to the public with no effort - all without dedicating the skillpoints a full Mind buff takes right now. People would probably migrate towards using Dancers all the time, more than likely female Dancers, and Musicians could get marginalized.
I think the main reason the Mind buffing was split between the Entertainer types is so that the patrons are more likely to hang out in cantinas longer, and talk with fellow players. Cantinas make all sorts of players congregate and spend some down time in a definite spot. Yes, it's a timesink. But so are shuttlewaits and lots of other things in this game. It does, however, provide a chance for people to relay info about the game, discuss recent events/hunts/resources, etc.
Although eliminating the need for 2 Entertainers to get full Mind buffs would make things faster (and maybe a bit more convenient) for Combat types, there's something to be said for the Devs resisting the temptation of implementing a "fast food drive-thru"mentality for Mind buffs. Hanging out in a cantina isn't a big deal, some downtime from fighting is a good thing, and the chance to RP and interact with other players is a golden opportunity which is lost to those who start watching/listening and then say "AFK for awhile."
I've met quite a few great people in this game inside of cantinas (while playing a Combat character) and in that time, there's usually someone crabbing about how long the cantina visit takes, or how long buffs take for Mind (is it done yet.....is it done yet....how much more time....AFK, send /tell when the buff's done). So, I really feel like, for the most part, having to hang out twice as long for Mind buffs (dance and then music) is a good thing, and fosters a movie-like scene in the cantinas where varied people are hanging out for various purposes.
Bottom line: I think that making Dancers OR Musicians buff all 3 stats would be more convenient for Combat folks. But, it would also serve to be detrimental to the game experience and the sense of community that can develop within a cantina during a visit. It would also give buffbots an advantage of being less of a "burden" to get the skills for buffing. We'd probably see a lot more "moonlighting" buffbots who could offer full Mind buffs, and thus be more valuable to the playerbase.
Ummm, yeah. I'm done. I guess.