Dancer Archive

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Drygo wrote:
WE DESERVE THE RIGHT TO SELL OUR SERVICES AT A FAIR MARKET VALUE JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE.

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Exactly!

This I definately support you in... Charge me a price, if it is out of my league I just wont buy that buff, but if I can afford it I will pay for it and be happy to get that buff. You make things more cost effective on hunts, you keep me alive longer, you provide a valuable service....

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Ariven wrote:

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Drygo wrote:
WE DESERVE THE RIGHT TO SELL OUR SERVICES AT A FAIR MARKET VALUE JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE.

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Exactly!

This I definately support you in... Charge me a price, if it is out of my league I just wont buy that buff, but if I can afford it I will pay for it and be happy to get that buff. You make things more cost effective on hunts, you keep me alive longer, you provide a valuable service....

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Thank you. Oh, and before people think I'm all **edit** retentive or something, I do make exceptions. 5K is normal price. But, of course, friends/guildmates/entertainers often get them for free although I will accept tips. If I can tell someone is a noob from their lack of armor and their profile that has only one or two badges, like the theed waterfall, I often will drop my price significantly lower.

But, you know, if you show up in composite, it's 5K or hit the highway.

LOL...this forum edits out the word a.n.a.l. as in **edit** retentive

Message Edited by Drygo on 08-23-2004 07:39 AM

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Rabenschwinge wrote:
/giggle
I didn't say I wouldn't take any money. I just said I wouldn't ask for it. At least not explicitly. I usually get far more than 5k.

If the service you provide is the buff and not entertainment, what do you have against buffbots then? They do just as well and much more simple. This isn't unfair.

Because the buffbots take away my ability to sell that service. That's what the whole point of this thread was. Live players losing out on 99% of the customer base because the vast majority of people go to buffbots. The buffbot has destroyed the economic viability of the entertainer professions.

Erm, but I guess I know a way solve your problem. Get the poeple to watch you dancing in your city (not easy, but makeable), see that the rules are clearly set against buffbots and cantina ban all buff bots. That's it. *shrug*

My particular city does not have buffbots, thank goodness. But, that also doesn't mean I should require all of my guildmates to travel there every time they want a buff. I think our city has close to 100 citizens at this point. That *might* sound like a lot. But, it really isn't. I mean, the smaller percentage of people that are actually logged in, and then the even smaller percentage of people that want a buff at any given time don't make it realistic for me to be expected to spend 5 hours at a time, by myself in my city's Cantina, bored out of my skull, waiting for someone to come in.

Besides, as I said earlier, my guildmates generally get buffs for free anyway. What I'm arguing for here is economic viability. I love my guild and all that, but it's not like I make any money off of them, nor will I ask them for it.

I have no problems with entertaining in this game. That part of the game, with some notable exceptions such as broken dances, is not really broken for me, and I have countless hours of fun actually entertaining. The problem is economic viability and having an economic place in SWG. Buffing was supposed to give us that place, but buffbots have taken it away.

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Ariven wrote:

I dont find it hard to believe when you take into account this comment you made "We are usually on Naboo and our cantina is Bishops' Sanctuary in Veritas"

Most of us are going to hit the big two, and rarely go hunting into random player cantinas... we get our buffs in coro or theed and go looking for an entertainer in one of those cities.

In fact on Sunday I spent 20 minutes idling in the theed cantina waiting for someone to say anything in spatial to indicate that they were anything but a zombie so I could ensure a live person got the specific healing XP..

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hm...
In the player city I live in currently are 3 - 4 guilds. I don't have any problem with customers in our cantina. Well except the fact that I get tells should our cantina be without dancer. And since I want the audiance in this cantina I better heed them.
Sometimes I dance when noone is actually there. Sometimes I dance for a dozen grouped guys.
Having a shuttle port in city and a mission terminal next to your cantina should help much.

Don't get me wrong. I do understand your problem and understand why you're upset. I don't even think you're wrong. I just think your attitude won't lead you anywhere. The matter is simple, buffbots offer exactly what people want and you don't.
That's why they are more successfull and that surely is fair market. So they make it harder for you to sell your buffs. but you can't really say it would be unfair.
And the reason I am saying this is not to prove that I am right and you are wrong, but because I wished more dancers would enjoy SWG more.

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Rabenschwinge wrote:
hm...
In the player city I live in currently are 3 - 4 guilds. I don't have any problem with customers in our cantina. Well except the fact that I get tells should our cantina be without dancer. And since I want the audiance in this cantina I better heed them.
Sometimes I dance when noone is actually there. Sometimes I dance for a dozen grouped guys.
Having a shuttle port in city and a mission terminal next to your cantina should help much.

Don't get me wrong. I do understand your problem and understand why you're upset. I don't even think you're wrong. I just think your attitude won't lead you anywhere. The matter is simple, buffbots offer exactly what people want and you don't.
That's why they are more successfull and that surely is fair market. So they make it harder for you to sell your buffs. but you can't really say it would be unfair.
And the reason I am saying this is not to prove that I am right and you are wrong, but because I wished more dancers would enjoy SWG more.

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I disagree. It is *not* a fair market *precisely* because the live player can never compete with the buffbot, and we can never be as good as a buffbot because we can never be on 23/7, and most of us are not dual dancer/musicians. You'reright, buffbotsoffer exactly what the people want and I don't. I never can. The buffbots are at a distinct and clear advantage because our profession is completely afk macro'able. And, when a profession is completely afk macro'able, a live person can never compete. That's not fair, and that's not good game design. The reason you don't see the doctor buffbots usurping the power of the live doctor's is because you can't completely afk macro them. Sure, there are some doc buffbots, but the docs aren't having a hard time like the entertainers because a live doc buff is almost *always* better. Game mechanics allow the live doctor to have advantages over the afk doctor. Game mechanics, on the other hand, allow the afk entertatiner numerous advantages over the atk entertainer. Rewarding afk play over atk play in any game is not "fair."

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Reachwind wrote:
If you are serious about getting a mind buff from an ATK player you really only need to make one stop. Mos Eisley. There are always new players there wide eyed and looking for people to interact with. Quite a few of us master level entertainers regularly play in there during prime time hours based on our own timezones.

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Why do you assume I am not serious in my desire to work with active at the keyboard people?


I detest Tatooine, it is ugly and too darn bright.. thats why I hardly ever go there.. so it makes sense that I dont go to the cantinas there and never have seen who hangs out there.. but I can swing by for a buff with no problems..

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Ariven wrote:
The time factor is a big thing GreatOwl.... with doctor buffs running 3+ hours we are on a time limit already to make back the cost of that buff

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/mood blueglowie
Use the entertainer channel Morgon.

/mood normal
Not only will you find a live entertainer, but there's a good chance you'll find one that will buff you near where you're hunting. Thus maximizing the time of that 2 hour entertainer buff in relation to the 3 hour doctor buff.

Message Edited by Nacoa on 08-23-2004 01:51 PM

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Nacoa wrote:

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Ariven wrote:
The time factor is a big thing GreatOwl.... with doctor buffs running 3+ hours we are on a time limit already to make back the cost of that buff

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/mood blueglowie
Use the entertainer channel Morgon.

/mood normal
Not only will you find a live entertainer, but there's a good chance you'll find one that will buff you near where you're hunting. Thus maximizing the time of that 2 hour entertainer buff in relation to the 3 hour doctor buff.

Message Edited by Nacoa on 08-23-2004 01:51 PM

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Like I mentioned earlier, information like this needs to be put in the server specific forums.. so people know to take advantage of the feature..

Personally I will use the friends list of the people who have said they are willing to be pestered by me... its more proactive on their part and its one less chat tab I have to squeeze on my display

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IrinaStarsinger wrote:

Draygo said:

WE DESERVE THE RIGHT TO SELL OUR SERVICES AT A FAIR MARKET VALUE JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE

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There's only one probem with using that statement to support your argument. It is the BUYER who determines what Fair Market Value is, NOT the seller. Economics 101.

Sorry, but as I've said to many others before, using real world economics as an argument simply does not apply in this scenario. I do agree that a buyer determines if a price is acceptable. Most buyers will not buy a mind buff for 50K. Most buyers would be willing to buy a mind buff for 5k. Sounds reasonable. However, the reason it can not fully be applied is because you have to take into consideration fair competition within the confines of the game. AFK 23/7 dual musican/dancer free buffbots is not competition. It's the usurping and undercuttingof a role meant for a live entertainer. One has to consider the uniqueness of certain in game concepts. One of those concepts is that afk entertaining is just as good, if not better, mechanically, then live entertaining. The same does not hold true for doctors, which is why doctors are still viable, while entertainers are not. At the moment, it's bad game design, and hopefully that will change. Until it does, the competition argument does not hold water because you're asking people to compete with a robot that is superior to the live player. While it's nice that you think entertainers should be held to a different standard than other professions, I do not.Crafters, smugglers, doctors...they all set prices. People either pay them or they won't. Peoplelook forbetter deals, that's all fine.Similarly, it's my opinion that entertainers of all varieties have the right to set a price for their services. If people won't pay that, the dancer may find they have to lower the price because the person next door is doing itmore cheaply. They may find in the middle of nowhere on Yavin IV, they can charge higher prices. All's fair in competition against other players. However, all of that is thrown out the window with buffbots.

And talking to customers with that attitude and that chip on your shoulder... Gee I cant imagine why they'd want to deal with a Buffbot in preference. And Im sure you wont want to dance near me, becasue I DO leave it up to my customer to decide what my services are worth. I do that for Dance andI do it for ID and I generally AVERAGE more than others are charging. A lot of people in Chat dont like me much cause I tend to say things that upset people or challenge their brains or upset their nice perceptions of the world or question the assumpions they dont even realize they are making. But the people who come in for buffs and to heal more often than not DO enjoy having their minds engaged. I've been a dancer since day one and I've never had problems with customers other than the odd 13 yr old jerk now and then.

First, please don't make assumptions about me, Irina. I may come off strongly on the boards because I feel very strongly about preserving the entertainer professions' economic viability. However, in game, I'm generally an extremely pleasant person who realizes the "customer is always right." And, you'd be hard pressed to find any one of my clients or random people that I come across who would say I have a chip on my shoulder. Rather, I'd take a look in the mirror, and try to figure out why people in chat don't like you and your particular chip. I have serious doubts that it's because other people are not intelligent enough to keep up with your massive amount of brain power. It could have something to do with your blame the victim mentality, and overall rudeness to your fellow entertainers.

So for God's Sake stop WHINING that people dont Value your service as YOU think they should! THEY decide who gets their money, NOT YOU.THEY decide how much its worth to them, NOT YOU. If you and I have to compete for customers on the Dance floor and you set a fee. I can almost Guarantee that I will make More than you do by letting Them decide. Becasue I KNOW thatI have to WORK for that money and the more I entertain them, the more I get.

Chill.

Again, I disagree with you. I set the terms of me selling my services, just like every other profession. I fail to see why entertainers should be held to a different standard than every other profession. Tailors, architects, doctors, smugglers, chefs. They all set prices. Why should we be any different? Yes, my prices fluctuate depending on the venue and the live competition. You may get more business if you and I are there at the same time, and that's fine. I'm happy to know that a live entertainer is getting business. I still wish people would charge because without charging you pepetrate the mindset that our services are free and people need only tip if they feel like it. Well, sorry, my services are not free except to certain groups of people. And, on the offchance that I am able to sell a mindbuff, I don't always get only the prerequisite 5k that I feel my services are worth for my time and my entertainment. A lot of times I get more. Just because I set a price, albeit a lowball price, doesn't mean that there aren't many people who value this service and give me more. I do the same thing, I almost always overpay the entertainer or ID who is selling me services. But, I have a limit to what I will pay. But, just because someone sets a price, that doesn't mean that I don't give more. Nor does it mean I have a chip on my shoulder if that's howI run my "business." It's entirelypossible tohave a set fee for services *and* be pleasant, engaging, and entertaining. Don't assume otherwise.

You may have the experience that you average more. That's possibly true, I don't have a log of all of your buffing transactions. But, don't make the assumption that it's always true. I may be the one making more because not only do I get the extra tip, but I always get the base fee I set rather than the occasional customer who may only give you 1K. Point is, you just don't know. I just prefer to use my buffing skills as a business and as a means of income. As such, I will continue to try to fight to make it a viable business. And, as such, I will continue to have a set fee. It's certainly your choice not to have one. I may not agree with it, but it's your choice.

And I can sympathize with the fellow who spoke of walking in and being ignored by ATK dancers. All too often I've danced with other dancers and watched them chatter away in Group or in Spatial and not bother to even acknowledge people coming in or respond to them with macro-speak by simply hitting a button with a canned response. That's why when Im dancing you wont often find me saying anything in Group or in a Chat channel. Its a Dirty little secret in the Dance Community that we dont like to admit, but anyone who dances knows that its true more often than not.

And dont come off with that Oh butI DO talk to the customers. You know as well as I do that what I'm saying is true. I was waiting for someone in the Theed cantina last week andwatched 6 dancers chattering away to each other in Group and Chat and pretty much completely ignore people coming in for over 30 mins. I dont much blame them for going to buffbots.

You really need to take a step back and get off that high horse and stop making assumptions about every single person that you disagree with. You have no clue if I do or do not interact with people, do you? You have no idea if I'm talking in /tells or anything. You're not even on my server. I won't lie and say that this doesn't happen sometimes. But, I honestly don't know what you have to gain by trying to alienate everyone else in your profession. You have some valid points mixed in with the insults and assumptions. And, perhaps people would be willing to debate with you on your ideas and points. But, again, probably the reason you may feel some alienation has nothing to do with other people's inability to be challenged, so much as it has to do with the way you present yourself through veiled and not so veiled insults towards your fellow performers.

I danced in Theed a couple weeks ago and spent a couple hours actually conversing with Customers.. a LOT of customers. To the point that one of the obnoxious ATK musicians started gripng that I was Spamming becasue I was Talking too much. Well.. I made 500k during that couple hours WITHOUT doing a single buff. Wonder how much HE made?

Great. I'm happy for you. Really. IMO, the person who told you you were spamming was in the wrong. I can't imagine I, or anyone else I know would ever do that. But, obviously this person did, and I have no reason to disbelieve you. You deserved the tips, he didn't.

And as for the whining about having to have to actually LOOK for a dancer when buffbots are 24/7... well gee.I hate having to LOOK for a tailor when I need one. Too bad there arent any Tailor bots around. And good thing for the IDs that no ones figured out how to make a Statbot or for the Doctors that no on has created a Medbot.

What you guys are complainging about is NOT about having to go GET a buff. You want permabuffs. Imagine actually having to PLAY the game!! Yea I geuss that IS a lot to expect.

Years ago I created a game for one of my kids who would play every new game with all the cheats he could find for it. It was called John Wins. All he had to do was to press any key and the splash screen came up saying JOHN WINS!! Sound like for a lot of the folks in SWG, THATS the game they really want to be playing.

I agree with you on these three paragraphs.

Maybe with the demise of the Buffbots one day soon there will be some winnowing out of the Entertainer Profession. There's a lot of people with attitudes that make me wonder WHY they ever took up entertaining. They DON'T much like people. They look DOWN on their customers and approach Dancing as if they DESERVE a living simpy becasue they WANT one. Survival of the fittest baby. If you can't suceed in the job then dont blame your Customers take a look in the mirror.

Yep, you're right. People that act like that probably shouldn't be entertaining. Or if they are just in it for the groupchat, then they shouldn't complain about not making any money. I also agree that a live person who is there and being attentive and pleasant deserves the tips, not them. The only place I draw the line here is when it comes to buffbots. Survival of the fittest will always favor the buffbots, and they need to go.

Look, I think we both fundamentally agree that some people are rude to patrons, and some people are better at actually working the crowd, entertaining, and getting tips, and are more deserving of them. But, what I think you fail to realize is that, if what you say is true, then you are one of the few last vestiges of people who have been successful in maintaining a business buffing. Most of us have not been that lucky. And, I have had the pleasure of working with and watching some very talented dancers and buffers. I've seen them, and myself for that matter, try extraordinarily hard to get some business while in direct competition with buffbots. There's no way you're going to convince me that the reason we can't get business is because we aren't good at what we do. That's just insulting and untrue. Your experience is not the norm. You've no doubt read countless examples on these boards of dancers and musicians who have tried to compete with the buffbots, but to no avail. You can't be that pompous to think that you are that much better than every single one of us. And, you can't apply your personal experience to every single one of us. And, last but not least, you absolutely cannot come on here and assume that the reason we aren't getting business is because and "whining" is because we're all ragingly rude to the patrons.

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Message Edited by Drygo on 08-23-2004 11:55 AM

Message Edited by Utess on 08-23-2004 04:41 PM

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Drygo wrote:

The game mechanics need to be changed so that people who want to actually play as entertainers can play entertainers and survive economically.

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Just curious... What do you make on average as an entertainer? I know I make roughly 30-40k over an average 4 hour session. Hardly in the same league as combat, or even upper artisan players, but then my costs are much lower as a dancer, as well.