Dancer Archive
Thread: So is unattended buffers (aka, the downfall of entertainers) going away with the combat upgrade?
LyteFoot wrote:
AFK macro looting is very much alive Ihareo they just had to learn to leave the AFK flag off. I still see plenty of zombies at all the popular spawn spots. The "fix" the devs put in was way to easy to get around and only put a bump in the way through lack of knowledge. Unfortunately there are way to many professional AFK players so knowledge spread quickly on the work around.
You still see AFK looters because they haven't removed the ability to turn off the auto AFK timer.
The point is that it's somthig.They gota step.Wehave gotten nothing. And we will continue to get just that till we come together as a community.
Message Edited by Ihareo on 03-28-2005 08:06 AM
Message Edited by kirah_ashlin on 03-28-2005 05:40 PM
Ihareo wrote:AFKing will prolly go away when our community comes up with a reasonable solution.
As an example, I point to the combat professions. Recently they had the ability to initiate an attak while AFK removed. That happned because their community got together and came up with a reasonable solution.
So far, in the Entertainer community, anyone who has come up with a solution other than removing recursive macros has been flamed to oblivion. Now, here we are, still have recursive macros AND our AFK problem wheras the combat professions have recursive macros, and no more AFK problem.
I personally take that as a sign to start thinking of reasonable ways to curtail the AFK problem.
I couldn't disagree with this assessment more, Ihareo. I would say that as a community we've come up with all sorts of ideas on how to end the AFK problem, and most of them have not involved removing recursive macros at all. In fact I'd say that the ideas that were most popular with us were ones that just involved enforcing an AFK timer and forcing any running macros to dump when activated or somehow tagging macroed commands so that if the server receives only macroed commands for too long, it could stop them from running. We frequently have to remind the trolls that wander in here to complain about Entertainers "whining and making the devs take away recursive macros" that this was not our idea. The devs made this decision on their own. All we wanted was a solution to the AFK problem.
I would say that this recent patch for the AFK combat macros had little if anything to do with any "clever ideas" on the part of the combat community that they talked the devs into implementing. I would say it was little more than the devs either making a first effort to address AFK in any fashion, or possibly responding to a cry from the combat to do "something". Whatever the reason, it still makes only a partial effort to eliminate their problem as it addresses only those players who allow their AFK flag to go up. As many players know, this is easily worked around, so it solves almost nothing.
So why have we gotten nothing yet? I dunno. Maybe they are just waiting to address our problems with a larger scale fix. Maybe they figure they'll fix it when the get around to the recursive macro issue or when they get to our revamp. We'll just have to wait and see.
DanceRulez wrote:
Ihareo wrote:
AFKing will prolly go away when our community comes up with a reasonable solution.
As an example, I point to the combat professions. Recently they had the ability to initiate an attak while AFK removed. That happned because their community got together and came up with a reasonable solution.
So far, in the Entertainer community, anyone who has come up with a solution other than removing recursive macros has been flamed to oblivion. Now, here we are, still have recursive macros AND our AFK problem wheras the combat professions have recursive macros, and no more AFK problem.
I personally take that as a sign to start thinking of reasonable ways to curtail the AFK problem.
I couldn't disagree with this assessment more, Ihareo. I would say that as a community we've come up with all sorts of ideas on how to end the AFK problem, and most of them have not involved removing recursive macros at all. In fact I'd say that the ideas that were most popular with us were ones that just involved enforcing an AFK timer and forcing any running macros to dump when activated or somehow tagging macroed commands so that if the server receives only macroed commands for too long, it could stop them from running. We frequently have to remind the trolls that wander in here to complain about Entertainers "whining and making the devs take away recursive macros" that this was not our idea. The devs made this decision on their own. All we wanted was a solution to the AFK problem.
I would say that this recent patch for the AFK combat macros had little if anything to do with any "clever ideas" on the part of the combat community that they talked the devs into implementing. I would say it was little more than the devs either making a first effort to address AFK in any fashion, or possibly responding to a cry from the combat to do "something". Whatever the reason, it still makes only a partial effort to eliminate their problem as it addresses only those players who allow their AFK flag to go up. As many players know, this is easily worked around, so it solves almost nothing.
*nods* and *nods*
There's no new technology or bright ideas to be pitched, everything that can be done is known and has been for ever. Please don't forget, we Ents were designed to allow for AFKing on purpose.
So, we have to ask the Devs if they will change their stance on that. Then we have to ask for a solution that will actually allow us to be active instead of the chatty "doesn't matter if you need to go potty or to the store because you're just dancing" passive method we have from concept (that's the real point to passive, sorry kids). We just need them to say they'll do it for us, and so far no one has been willing to.
Recursive macros bothered Tyrant for many reasons. Mostly, he just didn't like that it gives players such a high level of automation power in a game. No other game has a system like this and he seemed to think it was allowing people to "burn out" or fly through content too fast. It's pretty much the same argument against crafting advancements like Harvesters and Factories (which, Tyrant was not really gung ho for either).
I only ever heard Tyrant talk about this though. G and TH have made posts about it, but it was always just passing on Tyrant's words. It was Tyrant's baby and he was the one who would talk your ear off about how it was a bad idea to allow players this kind of tool... I promise, it was not because he was worried about Cantina Immersion or saving the idea behind Social profs though. AFK is a part of the original Dancer Design.
Now, if we moved to quest based leveling... built and queued up dances differently... there are lots of ways to just improve how Dancer works and plays with out ever actually trying to "solve AFK" in the game. For the record, Ent Corrs have been pitching this since we've had Corrs. The recursive macro nerf threw off our progress more than anything it did to strengthen our cause I personally believe. I hope the next Dancer Corr is able to get us back on track with those talks (since nasty RL isn't going to allow our Deila to track it down for us now).
Maybe I am taking it too far and should just accept, but for some reason i cant.
TangledMyth wrote:
If bounty hunter was replaced with a macro,i betthey would fix that issue on the spot.
Well, that's just it.
Until the Devs treat this like the serious, game breaking issue that it is (on the level of credit duping and exploiting), then nothing will be done in any timely manner.
Esharra wrote:
(About the only thing I Do have a problem with thatI hinted at in my previous post,is players saying they want to get rid of unattended play but still want to retain the ability to play unattended themselves. I'm just a little intolerent of the hypocrisy in that train of thought.)
Panthu wrote:
DanceRulez wrote:
Ihareo wrote:
AFKing will prolly go away when our community comes up with a reasonable solution.
As an example, I point to the combat professions. Recently they had the ability to initiate an attak while AFK removed. That happned because their community got together and came up with a reasonable solution.
So far, in the Entertainer community, anyone who has come up with a solution other than removing recursive macros has been flamed to oblivion. Now, here we are, still have recursive macros AND our AFK problem wheras the combat professions have recursive macros, and no more AFK problem.
I personally take that as a sign to start thinking of reasonable ways to curtail the AFK problem.
I couldn't disagree with this assessment more, Ihareo. I would say that as a community we've come up with all sorts of ideas on how to end the AFK problem, and most of them have not involved removing recursive macros at all. In fact I'd say that the ideas that were most popular with us were ones that just involved enforcing an AFK timer and forcing any running macros to dump when activated or somehow tagging macroed commands so that if the server receives only macroed commands for too long, it could stop them from running. We frequently have to remind the trolls that wander in here to complain about Entertainers "whining and making the devs take away recursive macros" that this was not our idea. The devs made this decision on their own. All we wanted was a solution to the AFK problem.
I would say that this recent patch for the AFK combat macros had little if anything to do with any "clever ideas" on the part of the combat community that they talked the devs into implementing. I would say it was little more than the devs either making a first effort to address AFK in any fashion, or possibly responding to a cry from the combat to do "something". Whatever the reason, it still makes only a partial effort to eliminate their problem as it addresses only those players who allow their AFK flag to go up. As many players know, this is easily worked around, so it solves almost nothing.
*nods* and *nods*
There's no new technology or bright ideas to be pitched, everything that can be done is known and has been for ever. Please don't forget, we Ents were designed to allow for AFKing on purpose.
So, we have to ask the Devs if they will change their stance on that. Then we have to ask for a solution that will actually allow us to be active instead of the chatty "doesn't matter if you need to go potty or to the store because you're just dancing" passive method we have from concept (that's the real point to passive, sorry kids). We just need them to say they'll do it for us, and so far no one has been willing to.
Recursive macros bothered Tyrant for many reasons. Mostly, he just didn't like that it gives players such a high level of automation power in a game. No other game has a system like this and he seemed to think it was allowing people to "burn out" or fly through content too fast. It's pretty much the same argument against crafting advancements like Harvesters and Factories (which, Tyrant was not really gung ho for either).
I only ever heard Tyrant talk about this though. G and TH have made posts about it, but it was always just passing on Tyrant's words. It was Tyrant's baby and he was the one who would talk your ear off about how it was a bad idea to allow players this kind of tool... I promise, it was not because he was worried about Cantina Immersion or saving the idea behind Social profs though. AFK is a part of the original Dancer Design.
Now, if we moved to quest based leveling... built and queued up dances differently... there are lots of ways to just improve how Dancer works and plays with out ever actually trying to "solve AFK" in the game. For the record, Ent Corrs have been pitching this since we've had Corrs. The recursive macro nerf threw off our progress more than anything it did to strengthen our cause I personally believe. I hope the next Dancer Corr is able to get us back on track with those talks (since nasty RL isn't going to allow our Deila to track it down for us now).
Well that goes back to what I have been saying for ever and a day now.
Our profession isn't "ruined" by AFKers or anything of the kind. Every problem (other than the AFKers take money that could better go to hard working dedicated entertainers like us) we face as entertainers originates, and can be solved,from within, despite outside influences.
People don't like to hear it, and when you say it you usually get flamed, but it's true. An example:
Respect: From the first week we have gotten less respect from other players. This comes from the very human instinct to establish a pecking order. Entertainers, havig no combat ability seem the natural choice to the bully type as they cannot defend themselves. This is only furthered by the fact that mose entertainers aren't WILLING to defend themselves, using the defence that reporting the offender won't do any good, or I'm an entertainer, I can't do anything about it physically. All thisCAN be solved. For example, making sure to take on a combat profession and duel arude person(this is my favorite. I love burning some hotshot to a crisp for disrespecting one of the girls in my group). A better one is to be free with the "Report Harassment" button. You gotta give a warning forst though. Nothing gets the message to a group of people like a CSR showing up anda harassermysteriously dissappearing after you have warned them (I've only seen this once, but it was priceless). The last way this can be remedied is by conducting ourselves with nobility and tact. ESPECIALLY on the forums. Somone coming in to ask a macro question and getting flammed and called names only furthers people's image of us as flakey whiney Drama Queens. The questioner comes in, get's flamed, then tells all his friends how badly he was treated (with some exxagerations Im sure) and more damage is done to us. Treat others with respect and you will be respected.
Message Edited by Ihareo on 03-28-2005 12:36 PM
Panthu wrote:
There's no new technology or bright ideas to be pitched, everything that can be done is known and has been for ever. Please don't forget, we Ents were designed to allow for AFKing on purpose.
I only ever heard Tyrant talk about this though. G and TH have made posts about it, but it was always just passing on Tyrant's words. It was Tyrant's baby and he was the one who would talk your ear off about how it was a bad idea to allow players this kind of tool... I promise, it was not because he was worried about Cantina Immersion or saving the idea behind Social profs though. AFK is a part of the original Dancer Design.
Well this is a shock from them...or is it?
Sounds to me that we have a bunch of computer geeks who are so detached from notions of play, rightly understood, that they actually think non play is play.
And if it is the case that this was designed to be an unattended profession, why did they not state clearly in the rulebook that it is such? Indeed, why not say on the character creation screen? Or at the entertainer trainers? Reminding those that pursue these professions that it was never meant to be played in any manner that normal people see as such. Why don't they make it clear that this was never intended to be a primary account profession, and was only ever meant to be played as a macroed second instance? Why don't we have them come here and tell us dancers, once and for all, that we are playing the profession in a way it was never intended to be played?
I want one of these RedTags to come here and tell us this. And if this indeed the case, they must for their own sakes if nobody else's do the things listed above to inform real people like you and I that these social professions were never meant to be played, were only ever meant as second account accessory characters, and are not the type of characters that play in any manner consistant with play from anyone outside a small clutch of MMOLRPG insiders.
...And then these wireheads wonder why MMOLRPGs are a small and failing genre.
PoetDancer wrote:
Sounds to me that we have a bunch of computer geeks who are so detached from notions of play, rightly understood, that they actually think non play is play.
The developers and, sadly, a lot of the player base feel that non-play constitutes play and therefore see no problem in how those of us that choose to actually play our professions are treated and/or brushed carelessly aside.
Ihareo wrote:
Or, maybe they are under the opinion that without AFK entertainers, there aren't enough entertainers to go around?
Or maybe they think there are more AFK players than ATK players, therefore we're actually the vocal minority.
Or maybe they never played a game in their life and can't understand why anyone would want to play a Dancer in the first place.
I seriously doubt it's like some big conspiracy to keep us down.
If it was, they wouldn't have even tried to get rid of AFKers in the first place.
If there is one thing that afking and buffbots have proven, it only takes one entertainer to service countless people. It only takes one.
If we were in a hypothetical world where there was no AFK, and there was only one live entertainer on at the moment, that one entertainer could service the base needs that the community has. We're talking about the base needs. Currently, that is BF Healing and Mind Wound healing. Many people argue that Mind Buffs are a base need, but that can be argued both ways, so I'm leaving it out of the equation at the moment.
If there was just one Entertainer that could heal people online, that one person could actually service the entire population at that time. If it was just one little Dancer in a cantina, chatting to the idle people in guild chat, he or she could keep the rest of the population going.
If it only takes one to service the entire community, I cannot buy into the idea that their is somehow a shortage of entertainers.