Dancer Archive
Thread: Fair warning everyone so ya'll don't trip out on me.
Schardour wrote:
I <3 Panthu
*hugs*
Now... RM kicked booty. He was a great Corre and I will never be able to be like him, our styles are totally different... and he was a founder! I'm sorry you can't see what RM did for us, a lot of it is in the super secret forum and can't be seen by everyone. He really did help lay our groundwork and was right there while Active Buffs were being worked out... his comments were considered greatly.
I'm not asking you to sit by... I'm not asking you to fake happy... I am one outlet and source to the Devs in this Corre position. I try to show you guys what I'm working on and point you to the threads and issues I need feedback on to take to the Devs. My only job is to tell the Devs what we want and answer the Devs' questions on our issues. Anything beyond that is up to the personality of the Corre.
The Devs are all pumped up after FF and posting in the Corre Forum a ton again. This is good... this is also a direct result of being around people who were pumped up and excited about the game! I am excited about the game, I am still excited about our Social professions, we have some really promising groundwork, we just have a lot left to work out.
If you are only worried about new art, I'm sorry, we're not getting that right now. You can be really mad about it, but it won't speed up the process any. We're working on our overall role right now... we have threads you can contribute to if you want to use the Dancer Forum and the Dancer Correspondent as an outlet to the Devs. You can also go out to the GCW andCore Systems forums and work with the Correspondents there, Jest3r and KStarfire. You can also go to the other Ent forums and work with Tiaga, NewJedi, and Kwee.
If you are choosing a forum here to work in, you will be working with a Correspondent. That's just how it works. *shrug* The Development cycle forums and the other forums here without Corres do get direct Dev response. If you have an issue to comment on in one of those threads, a Dev might respond to you directly there. You can also PM Devs here. Beyond all of that, that's all these forums can offer you on Profession issues.
You can try some methods outside of the forums: in game protest, off site petitions, emailing Lucas or SOE, but these are things outside of the forum.
No one is placating me... in fact, half the time they tell me no or to stop talking about it, lol. I'm not going to give up though. I've seen what works for other Corres and I'm trying to follow that. I've had about a gazillion posts in here trying to get you guys fired up about our issues. Please, do be active! Educate your community, work in the threads the Corres and Devs set up, take it to off site means if you have to, but yes, please do be active.
If you are putting all of your hopes on new art though, you are going to get very frustrated. We can't make that happen, we just have to wait. If you want to work on how we fit into the game though, now is a great time to get in on one of the Issue threads. 
Message Edited by Beery on 06-09-2004 08:03 PM
The problem is that they aren't saying they are just around the corner anymore, they are telling us that they are far down the road, that we shouldn't even be looking for them until long after they do what they consider important, mainly everything but us. It's coming up on the one year mark of this game going live and we are not one bit closer to having our dances finished let alone getting any new dances or content. You talk about new flourishes like they are something new to be added to our profession when the truth is they are needed to just finish the incomplete profession we have been stuck with from day one. TH's last answer to us was just a long-winded semi polite screw you.
Beery wrote:
I'm not saying the correspondent is anything other than excellent. The problem is, the rhetorical powers of Winston Churchill wouldn't be of any use in this case. Our correspondent is talking to a group of developers who are more interested in placating the correspondent with promises than they are with fulfilling any of those promises. Heck, 6 months ago they were promising new dances and new flourishes - they were just around the corner. Somehow it's 6 months later and they're still 'just around the corner'. Come on folks, smell the coffee.
Panthu wrote:
If you are putting all of your hopes on new art though, you are going to get very frustrated. We can't make that happen, we just have to wait. If you want to work on how we fit into the game though, now is a great time to get in on one of the Issue threads.
I'm actually one of those people who is actually very glad to hear this. While I do believe that new art work would be a good thing, as I've said in many other posts, my concern right now is really how we fit into the game.
There seems to be a split into two different camps among us. Many dancers only care about the art work and "performing" issues, which is entirely valid. Others are more concerned really with how we fit into the game, which is also valid. I tend to fall into the latter camp right now. (Of course, there is probably a very silent majority who fall straight down the middle.) But, what I tend to see more postings about are the two sides tug of warring with each other. 
As I think I've also mentioned before, I think we have so many performance goodies already. Yes, we could use more, but I honestly never have any trouble when I'm performing putting on a good show. We've already got a lot of great stuff. And, even though the droids were billed as part of the DE revamp, I think they were an amazing addition for us. At this point, I have 3 droids on one server, and one on another. And, the entire time I've been playing before the DE Rebuilt thingy, I never even owned one droid. But, I'm having a ball with mine and am almost always using one of my droids. I have both effects and playback. And, even though it's a long time in coming, I'm happy to see the entertainment missions being worked on, and I'm very excited about the Hutt Casino. I'm also realistic enough to know that the devs put out a lot of content in this game, and if our "content" has to be pushed back, I'm actually very much okay with it. Because there are a lot of things coming up that I'm still going to want to check out and use coming in the mean time. I'm honestly completely okay with the level of overall content that the devs here churn out and think they're doing an amazing job. I'm also fully confident that our time will come. We will get more goodies--the ones in the works that we already know about, and ones that I'm sure we have no clue about.
On the other hand, I'm seriously concerned about our place in the game. Most of my posts have been about buffing. And, the reason I've focussed on this is because this is really the one thing that the devs have given us to be interdependent within the universe. And, I think interdependence is extremely important. And, I think it's one of the main reasons that I am attracted to this game so much. So, of course, to me, buffing needs to be focussed on. We need to be made more viable in that respect, in regard to how our buffs work, how long they work, how long they take to implement, the bugs associated with them, and the fact that we should, by all rights, be able to use all of our skills on ourselves, just like every other profession can. That's very very important to me.
I've seen a lot of posters stating that they don't care about the interdependence of our profession. I've seen a lot of people say they would be perfectly happy if they took away all of our healing and buffing capabilities. I, for one, would absolutely *not* be happy if this were to happen. I want a place in the economy. I want to provide a service that people either need or want enough that they come to me over and over again. Yes, I love putting on shows, but I want to have a real, distinct place in this universe and in the Galactic Civil War. That's a major point of the enjoyment of this game for me.
Having said that, it doesn't *have* to be buffs. That's just what I've been working with because that is what we have, and that is what I can see where we can have a crapload of improvement. Also, I honestly don't have any other particular ideas of how we could be useful in the overall universe, but I'm certainly willing to entertain them, so to speak. If the devs, or anyone on these boards came up with an idea totally unrelated to buffs or healing that would make us useful and wanted, I'd more than likely jump on the bandwagon and support it, even if it meant we got rid of the buffs and healing. The point being, I want *something* to make us useful. Simply put, I want a "place." While some people are adverse to the "bard" idea, I am not. I would love to be more useful in actual combat using my dancing abilities. I'm not saying we *have* to be bards. But, as an option, I'm fine with it. Does that make sense?
So, for all of those that don't want a "place" in SWG, that is fine, and it's completely your option. You don't have to use any of the buffing or healing abilities, or anything else the devs may eventually give us. But, for those of us who want a "place," I think it's important that we support each other and focus on that right now, since that seems to be what Panthu is saying the devs are looking at. So, I think it's important for us to come up with a unified voice over what our place is going to be. And, if you truly don't want us to have a place...well, you're certainly entitled to your opinions. But, please, don't try to drag the rest of us down at the moment. I guarantee that when the time comes to give us new art, or new content, I'll be the first one backing you up with your ideas as a single, cohesive voice.
"The problem is that they aren't saying they are just around the corner anymore, they are telling us that they are far down the road..."
Well if we were far down the road I would have expected to have run across some mileposts. Ifeel as if I'mstill sitting close by the samemilepost I was looking atages ago, and the guys who are chargingme bus fare don't seem to be able to drive. Meanwhile they - and my other passengers - are saying "stay in your seat, we're nearly there". But I can't get over the feeling that I could have walked there by now.
Message Edited by Beery on 06-09-2004 08:22 PM
Message Edited by Beery on 06-09-2004 08:25 PM
Beery wrote:
"I guarantee that when the time comes to give us new art, or new content, I'll be the first one backing you up with your ideas as a single, cohesive voice."
Who is talking about new art and new content??? I couldn't care less about that stuff. All I want is forthe features that already existed in the game to actually work. I'd like mission terminals to give me missions that I can turn a profit doing, and that will send me to gigs outside the town I'm in - like they used to. All I want is theentertainer class working properly andback the way it was when missions actually worked properly. It's not like they haven't already had a period when the class worked. This stuff worked - for about a week back in August. It was brilliant. Then they 'fixed' it and it's been broken ever since.
You may not be talking about new art and new content. I never accused you of that. But, there are a lot of people who are. In the past month, we've had several conversations about props, new dances, even racial dances. I would consider discussion about missions to be content, if I'm being completely honest.
That doesn't, of course, negate your viewpoint. Wanting those missions to work like they used to is completely valid. I would even agree with you that it's kind of ridiculous that they used to work but now they don't. After all, as I said in another thread, when I first started playing back in July, I used those missions. And, yes, they gave me money, but a lot of times they sent me to places where nobody was there, so it really wasn't all that fun. Content in the way of missions that give you a decent amount of money and send you places, maybe even requiring active watchers, or hey, missions that would require grouping could be quite fun! But, even if we're talking about fixing the old missions back the way they were without any of the extras, it's still considered content. And, talking about "fixing" the dances so that there are a full 8 usable, distinct flourishes for every dance is still content, as it is artwork. You need the artwork to make those flourishes.
One could argue, I suppose, that enhancements to buffing or the ability to buff ourselves is content. I suppose everything is content, in one form or another. But, the missions, and the new dance flo's don't do anything to give us a place in the game. They're either performance enhancements or ways to make money without having to ever interact with anybody else. That's more content than it is a "place in the game." Trying to find out ways to make us more viable and valuable to the SWG population is more about the "place."
"But, the missions, and the new dance flo's don't do anything to give us a place in the game. They're either performance enhancements or ways to make money without having to ever interact with anybody else."
Message Edited by Beery on 06-09-2004 08:51 PM
Beery wrote:
"But, the missions, and the new dance flo's don't do anything to give us a place in the game. They're either performance enhancements or ways to make money without having to ever interact with anybody else."
On the face of it, that's true. But when you consider that the old missions forced you to go off-planet to other cantinas, you have to see that this enhances the sense of a real universe, and helps players to socialize more. Sure, there were some flaws in it, but it was certainly better than what exists now - and the flaws could easily be corrected by simply having the missions send you only to cantinas unless the population and the game mechanicsbecame such that players could be found elsewhere.
The old mission structure did more than anything to helpentertainersinteract, and to help give us our place in the game. The current missions don't do anything towards that. I'm all for your goal ofgetting us a place in the game,so why am I finding myself as the sole voicedefending afeature that would undoubtedlyhelp us do just that?
As for ways of making us more interactive within the community, I fear that all the buffs in the world won't help. The vast majority of players resent entertainers just as fantasy roleplayers tend to resent healers. People simply don't respect a profession that has an optional charge for service. Without an enforced charge for services rendered, the entertainment community will always be regarded as slaves,beggars or prostitutes. People don't value things they aren't forced to pay for. That's a fact of life. We can come up with any number of methods for getting the entertainer class to be integrated preoperly into the community, but it will never happen until we get a set fee for ourservices.
Message Edited by Beery on 06-09-2004 08:47 PM
I agree with you on most of your points. I don't necessarily think the missions are the *best* thing for our profession. I agree that they're high up on the list. But, in order to make the missions actually provide us a sense of place and help us to interact, they'd have to send us to Theed, Coronet, or the Dantooine Mining Outpost at this point. Because, nearly every place else you go is going to be empty. That's not to say I didn't like dancing in the hotels or the theaters from time to time just for something different to look at. But, to be perfectly honest with you, I don't remember the missions according me with that much interaction with other people unless they sent me to Theed or Coronet, which I probably would have been anyway. In order to make it more useful for interaction with others...a lot more than simply getting the missions needs to be changed. They would have to possibly add some kind of code to only give missions where there was at least one person, for example. Or, they'd have to somehow change the way everyone plays to get some people to actually be in Keren for some reason or another. Tweaking the mission terminals to somehow figure out if people are in Cantinas would be more content related, I think.
As for you being the sole voice, I think there are a couple of reasons for that. While it seems strange, it's kind of a "new" idea. Not that it's never been brought up before. But, every once in awhile we've had threads complaining about broken entertainer missions. But, it's the ebb and flow of ideas. It's just not in the "cycle" right now. Perhaps the fact that you and a couple others have been posting recently will bring it more to the forefront. The second reason, is that obviously from her statements, Panthu has been given some sort of information to suggest that the devs are focussing on our place in the game right now. She's been trying to steer and guide our conversations in that direction. And, that's just naturally what people have been talking about.
As for a set fee...well, I have a set fee, I don't know about anyone else. It may change from day to day depending on circumstances, but I certainly have a fee and if they don't pay it they don't get it. And, I'm definitely professional about it...There's no optional "pay what you feel it's worth" crap. I get your point though. And, believe me, I have hinted on numerous occasions how much I wish people didn't give away our services for free and how much I would prefer if people actually charged like a "real" profession. It's also the reason why I vehemently HATE buffbots. I personally think dancers who don't have a fee are doing more harm than good to the profession as a whole. But, that's their choice not mine. But, I agree with you in the sense, that this is our money maker, this is our business, this is what the devs gave us to make money from others...we should charge for it. Even so, I don't feel it's my place to enforce that through a game mechanic, any more than I would expect the devs to implementa set price that weaponsmiths must sell what they produce.
But...I will say one thing. I totally back you up regarding the entertainer missions. I definitely would never mean to suggest, and haven't said that they weren't important. I would love to see them fixed and will add my voice to that whenever you want me to. Correct me if I'm wrong though, but aren't the fixes to entertainer missions already in the works? I don't think that posting about them on the boards will make them happen any faster, however. The devs pretty much have a timeline here, and they've stated where our missions are in that timeline. (I don't exactly recall the exact mini publish) However, as Panthu indicated, the devs are looking at our place in the game right now,so that has really been what I've been focussing on recently. I can tell you though, when the missions come out, I'll be doing them and I'm greatly looking forward to them.
Question for Panthu (if she's actually taken the time to read my long windedness this evening), as far as the missions go...do you know if they've pretty much decided everything they're going to decide about them, or do you think they'll ever ask us what kind of content we want for the missions?
Drygo wrote:
Question for Panthu (if she's actually taken the time to read my long windedness this evening), as far as the missions go...do you know if they've pretty much decided everything they're going to decide about them, or do you think they'll ever ask us what kind of content we want for the missions?
Well, they asked in the "In Concept" thread way back... which is what turned into our new "quests" which will happen no sooner than 9.2. I don't know if we can get any real changes on this from feedback. We'll just have to duke that one out when it hits TC in its full form. The quests do not appear to be what I was hoping for personally, but they do seem to be what some people were asking for... and who knows, they might tack on some really cool goodies that I don't know about yet.
As far as our current Ent Missions go... I'm not getting a real clear answer on those. I can push for it if you guys want me to try. It's just hard to ask anything about them right now with out getting a "quest" answer. They really seem to think this quest will be cool for us, maybe it will be.
The other Missions they have recently asked about were the GCW faction missions. Those are looking like they could be insanely fun! We have a thread about it in the Corre Forum and as we get closer, we'll start to see what can happen.
The CB has no room for Mission talks... our healing is the hottest topic for us there and I am so relieved that we are being included in the testing. I pitched all the ideas and suggestions that came up in our CBthread as well.
Those are all the Design changes... Hutt Casino is not something that is in feedback right now, that's all them behind closed doors... Kwee has gotten more info about that than I have I think, but she's been sworn to secrecy and she is really good at that. 
(unlike me who is a total blabber mouth)
RS said he'd think about having a Dev/Ent talk... TH asked me to remind him about that and I will go email him now. Maybe we can see that happen soon and you guys can ask more things directly. I'd really like to have more direct communication.
We're still working on bugs and the weird stuff our last "fix" left us with... it's all gone to QA. Ok, so that should be everything on where we are with the Devs right now, lol. Of course I read your posts Drygo! I try to push for the things we need attention on the fastest... that's not usually Content Requests, we have to do that on their schedule and Missions fall into that pile.
Also, I'm not the only Ent Corre. We over lap onbig issues a lot. Ent Missions are not just our battle, Kwee, NewJedi, and Tiaga are all shaking them down for that stuff too. Make sure you let them know this as well and ask what they are getting back. We try to work with eachother, but we don't usually share emails and private PMs. 
We do try to talk to eachother about our 19 Question sessions for TH. I'm sure one of us could ask a Mission question if that's what we want. I thought you guys wanted to do an overall role question and what we're doing there. I think NewJedi is asking about our FS chances. IDs aren't in on our current Ent Missions and Kwee has her hands full with revampy questions still I think. Tiaga might be the best Corre to ask about them. I would try posting in the Ent Forum... nicely.
"in order to make the missions actually provide us a sense of place and help us to interact, they'd have to send us to Theed, Coronet, or the Dantooine Mining Outpost at this point. Because, nearly every place else you go is going to be empty."
I fear that's because other players expect them to be free from entertainers. It's a catch-22 situation. No one is going to go to a place where no dancers are located, so no dancers are going to go to a place where no other players are, so no one is going to go where no dancers are, so... . If we start appearing in out-of-the-way places, the customers will come. Now I agree that the game has always been overpopulated with hotels and casinos - there are just too many venues. But this problem is easily solved. Entertainment missions should be confined to cantinas, at least until population increases to an extent whereby other venues can be supported, or until players have some real reason for going to casinos and hotels (whose bright idea was it to make it unlikely to everwin money in a casino - I mean no one is going to go there unless they can make a littlemoney - get a clue, developers - this ain't Las Vegas).
"Correct me if I'm wrong though, but aren't the fixes to entertainer missions already in the works? I don't think that posting about them on the boards will make them happen any faster, however. The devs pretty much have a timeline here, and they've stated where our missions are in that timeline."
Message Edited by Beery on 06-09-2004 10:06 PM