Dancer Archive

Thread: A few positive things about Dancer and the CURB, please remember the following...

Ihareo
Tue Mar 22, 2005 1:31 am
#27






I have read several issues people have with the CURB. I am going to try to address some of those in a positive light, and post a few reminders.


This is where the CURB notes can be found. I encourage all of you to read them for yourselves and form your own opinions.


http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=Developers&message.id=63147


Remember also that this post is purely intended for panic controll. I am NOT on the team, nor am I a sandbox tester. I'm just a person who doesn't want to see people upset ofer maybe's and whatif's.


1. Dancer will be less viable, even useless after the CURB.


  • Nothing has been said by the DEVs to support this. There are more specific concerns, they'll be below.

2. Mind Buffs will be unnecessary.



  • Blair said that the Mind and Action pools will be used by combatants to perform special attacks, spending them like we currently spen our action to do flourishes.

  • This means that Dancer's ability to mind buff will be as usefull after the CURB as Quicknes, Stamina, Strength and Constitution buffs are now. In other words, if anything we will be more necessary, as currently taking a healping of Muon Gold or Vaserian Brandy can acomplish the same trick as getting both a Dancer AND Musician buff.

  • While it's true that Blair does not specifically say that the mind will be able to be buffed, it is a safe inferrence that Dancers as well as other Entertainers will retain their ability to buff somthing.

  • The publish notes specifcally state that the 15 second delay between stopping one performance and starting a new one will be removed for dancers and musicians.

  • Remember that it is now possible to recieve both a Dancer AND Musician buff at the same time. It is likely that they made this change in preperation for the new way things must be done. It is UNLIKELY that they made this change, knowing they would have to reverse it two months later.

3. Dancer's Healing will be unnecessary



  • Blair said Mind wounds are leaving, Battle Fatigue is staying in the game.

  • I'd like to remind everyone that Battle Fatigue interferes with a combatant during combat, inhibiting his natural healing rates.

  • What this means is that Battle Fatigue will still be absolutely vital to keep healed, just like now. While it has not been said that entertainers specifically will be the ones to heal it, I would say that to assume otherwise would be doomsaying at it's worst.

4. Dancer's Skill point costs are being removed.



  • Blair said nothing of the kind.

  • What was said is that the Skill Point cost for Image Designer is being reduced, so that a player can Master Musician, Dancer and Image Designer.


At this time I would like to remind all Dancers that we are getting a few new Dances sprinkled around the Dancer's Knowlage tree, and that in the past several months, the DEVs have been adjusting and tweaking the Entertainment professions so as to be more fun and viable.


Also, any assumptions that Dancer is going to get 'nerfed' based on the past activities are purelynihilistic fears. There is no evidence that we are going to be hurt by the changes.


What the CURB DOES mean however, is that we are going to have to adjust our play styles to keep up with the changes. I know adjusting can be unpleasant and inconvienient, but as the great Dr. Spock said:


"Change is the essential process of the universe".







Message Edited by Ihareo on 03-23-2005 09:56 AM




Ihareo Imtame--Adept of the Force
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LyteFoot
Tue Mar 22, 2005 1:35 am
#28
Look at the buff comments again. All planned buffs are to the health pool. If and only if they see a need after the CU will they consider some kind of mind buff, again specified in the statements TH made. The key point is that is after the CU and only if the DEVs feel there is a need. Interpret that how you want I interpret it as saying; maybe, in many months, after debugging all the CU changes, we will consider some kind of buffs for entertainers.



Elwyn LyteFoot - Corbantis server
Va-Mei
Tue Mar 22, 2005 1:46 am
#29
... and it doesn't say a word about buffs to the mind.
Ihareo
Tue Mar 22, 2005 1:50 am
#30
mispost

Message Edited by Ihareo on 03-21-2005 12:56 PM




Ihareo Imtame--Adept of the Force
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Serratia
Tue Mar 22, 2005 2:37 am
#31
My comments in yellow.





Sunjammer wrote:
See, this is what I find so confusing. I didn't say one single word about performing. I talked about BF healing. Is BF healing not also a support role? Is it not also something that other players want that we offer, thereby requiring interdependancy?


Of course, but we only *have* three game mechanics for interdependency - mind wound healing, battle fatigue healing, and mind buffing - and they are removing two of those three. Without replacing them.

I don't mean to single you out specifically, and I'm not attacking you. When I say I'm confused, I mean it literally -- I don't understand. Among all the unhappiness I've seen only one single post that has even mentioned battle fatigue at all. From where I'm sitting, it's like you've all completely forgotton that we do it too.


In my experience, combat players are much less concerned about BF than about buffs and wound healing. It's less immediately visible and often takes quite a while to accumulate to noticeable levels. Hence few players come to the cantina *specifically* to find BF healing. I've known players with 800 BF who weren't at all aware of just how it would affect their doc buffs.

Which reminds me of something else: right now a lot of people get their BF healing done on the side while they get a buff. With buffing gone, that might actually increase the demand for BF healing by some margin.


Quite possibly, and one hopes that will be the case. However,asingle*novice* entertainer or AFK botwill now be able toservice an entire cantina of fatigued combat players. I have to wonder how many Jedi grinders will continue to leave their characters logged in overnight to gain free FS conversion XP.


As for whether it, too, will be taken away, it's been explicitly said that it's not. That counts for more to me than the devs saying we're not healers, since they've been saying that forever.


Umi




Well, it's late (or early) and my brain just completely shut down, so I'll stop there. Nothing to do now but wait and see...




Serratia Marcescens
Master Dancer/Master Fencer - Kauri
Master Image Designer/Master Dancer - Bria

"No dancing in the bathrooms!"
Ihareo
Tue Mar 22, 2005 2:43 am
#32
My comments are in Lilac



Serratia wrote:
My comments in yellow.






Sunjammer wrote:
See, this is what I find so confusing. I didn't say one single word about performing. I talked about BF healing. Is BF healing not also a support role? Is it not also something that other players want that we offer, thereby requiring interdependancy?


Of course, but we only *have* three game mechanics for interdependency - mind wound healing, battle fatigue healing, and mind buffing - and they are removing two of those three. Without replacing them.


No, they're removing ONE of them. the mind wounds. Read it for yourself instead of trusting the drama queens who want to create a panik for their own enjoyment.

I don't mean to single you out specifically, and I'm not attacking you. When I say I'm confused, I mean it literally -- I don't understand. Among all the unhappiness I've seen only one single post that has even mentioned battle fatigue at all. From where I'm sitting, it's like you've all completely forgotton that we do it too.


In my experience, combat players are much less concerned about BF than about buffs and wound healing. It's less immediately visible and often takes quite a while to accumulate to noticeable levels. Hence few players come to the cantina *specifically* to find BF healing. I've known players with 800 BF who weren't at all aware of just how it would affect their doc buffs.


Players never notice their BF till there's no entertainer around to heal it. Once the BF hit's a critical leve, it becomes impossible to play without it being healed. And when there's no entertainers around, it builds up FAST.

Which reminds me of something else: right now a lot of people get their BF healing done on the side while they get a buff. With buffing gone, that might actually increase the demand for BF healing by some margin.


Quite possibly, and one hopes that will be the case. However,asingle*novice* entertainer or AFK botwill now be able toservice an entire cantina of fatigued combat players. I have to wonder how many Jedi grinders will continue to leave their characters logged in overnight to gain free FS conversion XP.


You are making an assumption based on half truths. Fact is a single novice entertainer can service a cantina now. We will still be needed to provide mind buffs.


As for whether it, too, will be taken away, it's been explicitly said that it's not. That counts for more to me than the devs saying we're not healers, since they've been saying that forever.


Umi





Well, it's late (or early) and my brain just completely shut down, so I'll stop there. Nothing to do now but wait and see...










Blair wrote:




The profession trees for Entertainers, Musicians, Dancers and Image Designers will be affected by the Combat Upgrade, and will likely need some profession tweaking because of the changes with wounds, stat migration and buffs to the mind. We will make adjustments to entertainers by creating some long lasting, minor buffs for combat professions.






There. Blair said it himself, there WILL STILL BE MIND BUFFS




Ihareo Imtame--Adept of the Force
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Sunjammer
Tue Mar 22, 2005 3:50 am
#33
Serratia wrote:
My comments in yellow.

Hey, you stole my color!

Of course, but we only *have* three game mechanics for interdependency - mind wound healing, battle fatigue healing, and mind buffing - and they are removing two of those three. Without replacing them.

I don't see this as a real problem. They aren't reducing the audience, just the number of reasons why they come. The same people who no longer need mind buffs will still need their BF healed. After all, it's not as if you can only do one of the three at a time. Mind wounds and BF heal together, and mind wounds are usually fixed first, so the removal of mind wounds has almost no effect on the combatant-entertainer interdependancy.

Admittedly, the change to buffs may mean that the number of audience at any given time may be lower compared to what buffing entertainers are used to. People will not need BF healing as often as they want buffs. But less by no means = none. As I mentioned, even in a relatively low-traffic place like the Lucky Despot I have a steady trickle of patrons -- sometimes two or three at a time. There are times when it's dead, but not as much as you may think. People stay longer for healing than they do for a buff, and I often have people stay and keep watching for awhile after they're healed.

I'm curious -- how important is the size of the audience to other entertainers? Two, twenty, does it make a difference? No buffs probably will mean a reduction in income, but again, I get by without buffing.

In my experience, combat players are much less concerned about BF than about buffs and wound healing. It's less immediately visible and often takes quite a while to accumulate to noticeable levels. Hence few players come to the cantina *specifically* to find BF healing.

You may have a point, but how much of that is because they get their BF taken care of now without noticing, because it happens while they're getting a buff? As Ihareo mentioned, it does start to noticably degrade performance after awhile.

...a single *novice* entertainer or AFK bot will now be able to service an entire cantina of fatigued combat players.

As mentioned the one previous time this came up, BF healing at the novice entertainer level is glacially slow. Especially for players who, as you say, don't notice BF until it's in the 900s or something.

And I rather like the idea of fewer entertainers per cantina. I've always wanted to see us spread out more and be available to the player base in more locations. That's why I'm always dancing in places like Nym's or the Lucky Despot. I don't enjoy being by myself, but I don't enjoy competing with 30 others for the pikeman who just came in the door, either. Say, groups of 3-5 performing together in a half-dozen of the more frequented NPC cities.

I have to wonder how many Jedi grinders will continue to leave their characters logged in overnight to gain free FS conversion XP.

This would pretty much be how things are now for me. Happily, there are usually no bots at the Lucky Despot, and only occasionally do I run into one at Nym's. I agree that this will probably continue to be a problem after the CU. As I said in my original post, getting rid of buffs won't get rid of AFK. But I don't think it will make things any worse, either.


Umi
Tangleweb
Tue Mar 22, 2005 4:11 am
#34




Cendatinea wrote:




Tiaga wrote:
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Or ohter sarngte wyas to otfcubsae txet.




Scary thing: I actually can read that. Both lines even.



me too





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DarkY0da
Tue Mar 22, 2005 4:17 am
#35
"will likely need some profession tweaking because of the changes with wounds, stat migration and buffs to the mind."

I think you need to read that statement again. What is happening with Mind wound, and stat migration and yes also buffs... they will then "create"

I'm sorry that I'm unable to convice you of this with what is already out in public. But then again it's perfectly ok for you to try and keep peoples moods a little more upbeat then those of us from the Sandbox might be doing... And I guess I really shouldn't try and keep that from happening..

So just ignore what the sandboxers have said, and go with what ever keeps you hopeful. In the end might be best for all of us to do that...

Message Edited by DarkY0da on 03-22-2005 06:21 AM



Oh-Orb Rizo Twi'lek
Just hanging out... watching with interest what changes do or don't happen.

I support the NDE. (New Drygo Experience)
Server Pop Snap-Shot Feb. 06 link















rayill
Tue Mar 22, 2005 4:38 am
#36




DarkY0da wrote:
"will likely need some profession tweaking because of the changes with wounds, stat migration and buffs to the mind."

I think you need to read that statement again. What is happening with Mind wound, and stat migration and yes also buffs... they will then "create"

I'm sorry that I'm unable to convice you of this with what is already out in public. But then again it's perfectly ok for you to try and keep peoples moods a little more upbeat then those of us from the Sandbox might be doing... And I guess I really shouldn't try and keep that from happening..

So just ignore what the sandboxers have said, and go with what ever keeps you hopeful. In the end might be best for all of us to do that...

Message Edited by DarkY0da on 03-22-2005 06:21 AM



I feel that if the general populace of the Dancer community were to simply follow the example being put forth by some of the Dancer representatives in the Sandbox that most Dancers would be better served to just cancel their accounts now. Right now, it really seems that some of the testers are looking to convince as many people that they should abandon ship now. Regardless of whether it is warranted or not, these kinds of negative statements are what is going to cause the community to easily fall apart after the CURB. I'd rather see people trying to make the community more tightknit so that we could weather the storm until our Profession Revamp. If you don't feel that you can do that right now, that's fine, but don't try to stop and undermine others who are trying to keep a more optimistic outlook. Even unfounded, the optimism can help to bring the community together, and let's just remember that this community is why a lot of us are still here to begin with.



Rayill Yi'tun
Master Dancer
- I support ATK people and playstyles
Hobbytla
Tue Mar 22, 2005 5:02 am
#37
I see this in two different ways. As far as the CURB goes, I'm not very hopeful about the entertainers. They are not looking at entertainers, they are looking at how to make combat to function better than it is today. They are taking things from a lot of people to make this work, and it's not their job to look out for the further future of separate professions. They really don't care about entertainers, because this is not their job at this point.


This does not mean that I'm willing to not be optimistic of the overall future of entertainers. That specific look at entertainers will come later. Be it bad or good, it's not included in the CURB. Which means that the sandboxers might not have full access to what all the teams are doing or what discussions are going on.


So - I'll be slightly pessimistic about the CU for entertainers, more for the AFK issue than for buffs going away.... and I'll be optimistic of the future of entertainers when some resources can be directed to it.


I don't expect people who probably are under extreme pressure at this moment with the deadline they have been presented with to sit down and be creative with things which is not a high priority. The CU also effects other professions which are not included. Like bio-engineers, rangers, creature handlers. I can't see how my ranger will be able to pull in 1 million in an evening in harvesting meat anymore, ever- but I understand that ranger is not a priority at this moment. And I'm not a ranger for the money, they are just a nice perk!


Until more information is released it seems a little pointless to discuss specifics on what might or might not happen.

I would be very sad to see people leave at this early stage over something which haven't played out yet. If and when the entertainer professions has gotten their attention later on it can be judged whether it's no good or not.


Not saying that people who want to leave shouldn't though. If you are upset enough to feel like leaving the game, the cancel button might be your loudest voice, as long as you make sure they know exactly what you are leaving over.


The other week I was afraid I had to quit the game completely because of the snappy movement, and as attached as I am to my characters and their professions I found myself most sad at the prospect of not being part of the SWG community anymore. I like it here! And I think people should be allowed to express their feelings, be it good or bad... but it would make everyone feel better if it was as balanced and in perspective as can be.



=====================================================================
"We wanted more instant gratification: kill, get treasure, repeat. We needed to give people more of an opportunity to be a part of what they have seen in the movies rather than something they had created themselves." Nancy MacIntyre, LA SWG senior director ---- Yes, because it's not fun and exciting to be a part of something you have created yourself.... What ever happened to "EXPERIENCE THE GREATEST SAGA EVERY TOLD - YOURS"?
======================================================================
kirah_ashlin
Tue Mar 22, 2005 5:19 am
#38




Einhinder wrote:




Tiaga wrote:
If god had intended us two spill, he wood knot half invented spill checkers.



being attacked for my spelling is a pet peave of mine im dyslexic i really cant help they dont look wrong ot me /sigh



I understand completely - I'm dyslexic, too. But, people who don't have dyslexia can't comprehend what it's like, so I've learned to shrug it off for the most part.






Now -regarding the gloom and doom "sandbox" outlook- what's up with that? Should we all just give it up and cancel our accounts rightnow? I might not be thrilled with what is happening with the CU. I might not understand how it will affect our gameplay and fun. I might find my feelings about the game running hot and cold on a daily basis, for that matter. However, it is far more easy to buy into a negative outlook than a positive one. I am, personally, tired of being part of the "woe-is-me" choir. I'm going to have as much fun with this game as I can for as long as I find it fun. And that would be my suggestion for all of us.

Kyree-Sunrunner
Tue Mar 22, 2005 6:08 am
#39

Einhinder wrote:

Tiaga wrote:
If god had intended us two spill, he wood knot half invented spill checkers.

Y
being attacked for my spelling is a pet peave of mine im dyslexic i really cant help they dont look wrong ot me /sigh




Sadly, dyslexics tend to get lumped in with the people who are too lazy to use proper grammar and spelling. One of my spouses is dyslexic, so I'm pretty used to translating it in my own head. Every dyslexic I know is very bothered by their spelling mistakes even though it's nothing they have any control over.

No one would diss you if you were in a wheelchair.. that disability is obvious. Dyslexia is a hidden disability and many people without it really don't understand what it's like.

*HUGS*
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