Dancer Archive
Thread: AFKers annoying? Buffbots got you down? Union of Cantina Workers needs members
Beery
Tue Jun 22, 2004 10:11 am
#27
"I agree with the fact there is very little content for entertainers it should be greatly expanded, however the profession itself would still be limited in it's interaction with the general populace."
I agree. Entertainer is necessarily limited because it's not combat orientated. Why then is it the case that entertainers are even more limited by the fact that they have always been the worst paid class in the galaxy? The fact is, tips simply don't work the way they're supposedtoin this game- there is too little incentive built into the system to make people want to tip entertainers. Thus, cantina workers make a pittance, and the already limited role they can play is even more limited by a broken wage system.
"... I do think that entertainers would be better suited if they could take a second profession (Combat) along with their entertainer profession..."
The problem with that is that most entertainers don'tlike combat. They find it as boring as combat orientated people find dancing. As I say in an earlier post, entertainer is the only class that needs to take a second job just to pay the bills. The job they're expected to take is one that's inherently distasteful to the kind of people that are usually drawn to be entertainers. Telling us to pick up a combat profession to offset the lack of payis the same as telling a pistoleer or bounty hunter that he needs to take up dancing to improve his reflexes. Ifthe combat classeswere set by the game system to be so sluggish that they were useless in combat, would they willingly pick up dancing to raise their speed and reflexskills, or would they lobby to get normal reflexes? Your idea of taking a combat job is the same thing. I think we need to fix the problem, not work around it.
Akkurscid
Tue Jun 22, 2004 10:26 am
#28
Beery wrote:
The problem with that is that most entertainers don'tlike combat. They find it as boring as combat orientated people find dancing. As I say in an earlier post, entertainer is the only class that needs to take a second job just to pay the bills.
Well most Doctors are also combatants as are most Creature Handlers but both of those Profession combos suffer little in actual combat.
The doc can afford to have lower defenses because they can heal, themselves and othersand the CH has a number of pets to take all the damage/do all the damage(if they are Doc too)
Very few people are Combat medics and Doctors or Creature Handlers and Bio engineers. (though manyBE are CH
)
)The point of having a Combat class along side Entertainer is to boost the number of Combatants who are Entertainers, not require the full time Entertainers to take a combat class. But likeI said "Stackable Defenses blah blah blah..."
Myfriend was a Carbineer and Musicianfor quite awhile, but it turns out to bea poor combat combination so he gave it(Musician) up.
Akkurscid
Tue Jun 22, 2004 10:38 am
#29
Yes there is. Master Doctor and Master Dancer would leave you with 4 Skill points.
Money? Yes it takes alot of money to be a Doctor. Unless you harvest your own materials, which would impossible to harvest your own meats with the above template.(you would also need an artisan to find your Minerals and such)
Kreistor
Tue Jun 22, 2004 10:40 am
#30
DayWalkerRori wrote:
Is there enough points to go Doc/Dancer??
Docs make big bucks on my server...I know you would need some money to get started but, all gravy after
Just enough. I tried it at one point. After becoming a Master Dancer and a Master Doctor, you have exactly 4 skill points left. You're a buffing machine!
Of course, I found it very boring since I like to go out and hunt every so often. Plus, it's really hard to get out and get your own resources for making meds since you don't have enough points to even get Novice Artisan to survey. 
I mean, I know I could find someone to buy buff packs from, but I'm a hands on kind of person
Beery
Tue Jun 22, 2004 10:48 am
#31
"Well most Doctors are also combatants as are most Creature Handlers but both of those Profession combos suffer little in actual combat. "
I don't see what you're driving at here. Doctors aren't forced to take a second job. If they do so, they do so for fun, not out of necessity. As I said, cantina entertainer is the only profession in which you basicallyhave to take a second job to pay your bills. You may argue that those are the breaks, but apparently those are the breaks only if you decide to be a dancer or a musician. Every other profession is self-supporting, and I think the designers of the game meant for each profession to be independent - that way each player's play style is supported.
"The point of having a Combat class along side Entertainer is to boost the number of Combatants who are Entertainers, not require the full time Entertainers to take a combat class. But likeI said "Stackable Defenses blah blah blah..."
I think I'm missing your point. I'm an entertainer. I don't understand what stackable defences are, and I don't understand what lower/higher combatdefences have to do with the issue we're talking about. These are combat issues. I don't like combat and I don't see why I should have to do it if I don't want to - that's my point. Similarly, if a combat professional doesn't like to dance or be an artisan, I see no reason why he should be forced to dance or craft. Professions - especiallyadvanced professions such as Dancer and Musician - should be self-sufficient in terms of money. Every otherprofession in the gameis financiallyself-sufficient. They can all make a living doing only what they do, and they can choose to (or not to)take up combat or non-combat professions if they want. Dancers and Musicians can't do that. They HAVE to take up secondary jobs in other unrelated fields if they are to get by financially.
Message Edited by Beery on 06-22-2004 02:02 PM
Beery
Tue Jun 22, 2004 10:58 am
#32
"Is there enough points to go Doc/Dancer??"
I think you'remissingmy point. Each profession should be financially self-supporting. If I want to play ONLY as a dancer, I should have that option, just as a doctor has the ability to play ONLY as a doctor, or as a BH has the option to playONLY as a BH. Sure, second careers are fun, but they should be a choice, not a necessity.You canargue that dancers can get by if only they would take up combat or crafting, but it is only a work-around for the real problem, and for many entertainers it's a distasteful work-around. The point is, they shouldn't have to take a second job if they don't want to. Dancing should pay the bills. If I'm a top-class dancer or musician, I should not be wearing threadbare clothes, walking (or taking public transport)to gigs, and hoping that someone will tip me enough so that I can keep my house (if I have managed to save up enough to buy a house - many entertainers have tosleep on the cantina floor - as I do currently).
Let me put it this way: if you were a bounty hunter, and if there was something fundamentally wrong with the profession - say the payment system was so broken that you could only make 5K per day. Then let's say that in this world dancers and musicianswere paid millions per day, but you don't particularly want to dance or play music. Would you agreethat becoming a dancer or musician (or any other profession)was the way to solve your problems? Somehow I don't think so. You want your profession fixed. You don't want to waste time in a profession that you didn't choose.
Message Edited by Beery on 06-22-2004 02:16 PM
Ariven
Tue Jun 22, 2004 11:39 am
#33
> I think you're missing my point. Each profession should
> be financially self-supporting. If I want to play ONLY
> as a dancer, I should have that option, just as a doctor
> has the ability to play ONLY as a doctor, or as a BH has
> the option to play ONLY as a BH.
um, I have to point out.. if we go full master BH, we dont HAVE any real options but being a BH.. 33 points left to play with.. 
> be financially self-supporting. If I want to play ONLY
> as a dancer, I should have that option, just as a doctor
> has the ability to play ONLY as a doctor, or as a BH has
> the option to play ONLY as a BH.
um, I have to point out.. if we go full master BH, we dont HAVE any real options but being a BH..
33 points left to play with..
Ariven
Tue Jun 22, 2004 11:50 am
#34
> "...I have been trained to NOT bother asking master
> musicians or dancers for buffs... several months straight
> of asking if people are buffing only to be ignored, told
> they are too busy, told they dont want to do it or told
> they dont know HOW (heck, -i- know how, and I am a combat
> class)."
> I'm afraid that there's a huge reservoir of despair
> that's grown among entertainers. Many feel that they
Trust me, I know.. I mastered entertainer and dabbled in musician and ID before I focussed on combat.
> just don't get equal respect from other players for the
> job they do. This comes from the fact that most players
> don't say thank you for heals and buffs, and 80% (in my
> experience) don't tip entertainers, and tips are where
Which is why when I tip my healer or entertainer (which I do all the time) and they say thank you I make sure I say in spatial that I am paying for services rendered and that they deserve it.. I have actually gotten comments from aspiring medics and docs saying I didn't need to tip them since they got XP.. thats WRONG, they did me something nice, and I am going to do something nice in return.
When I am feeling burnt out on combat I load up my doc alt and go to med centers and help out people that the 'grinders dont... like those with disease or poison hitting them, or the poor guy who lost an argument with a krayt...
Of all the times I have done this with my doc, both healing live people as I worked my way up and as a master doc, I think I have been tipped or given something in return maybe 15 times... and thats a lot of healing up.. it's a problem that is endemic in the support professions, people do not have hard tangible proof of a benefit, i.e. a gun or armor or +2500 stats, so they dont think of it as "work"
> the cantina workers must make the money needed to enjoy
> the game's perks (vehicles, droids, clothes, etc.). Many
> entertainers have decided that if the majority of the
> community won't pay them or even thank them for the
> service they provide, they aren't going to provide the
> service. The alternative for them is to demand payment -
> something which is unpalatable for them and for their
> customers - just look at the response to those who do ask
Maybe a revamp of how the entertainer healing works is needed.. no not an ID style interface with mandatory payment, that would kill the profession I think.. but maybe a permission granted thing, sort of like joining a group.. have the entertainer be able to "invite to watch" or "invite to listen" to them to get the benefits of the healing.. a small extra step that will encourage people to interact and realize there is someone on the other end of the room who CAN help you.
> the time they spend gaining XP - many entertainers think
> it's a little unreasonable to expect them to give away
> the fruits of their labour for free. After all, they pay
I think it is unreasonable to expect them to give it away for free.. but then I have many times seen more than one person offering to pay, and pay good money (often 50%-100% higher than the cost of a doc buff) for a musician or dancer buff and have the sounds of crickets chirping come to mind...
But, in the interests of pay for play, if I -do- end up using a "buffbot" I make sure that I pay for services... there is one on my server that is "free, just tip me if you like the service" and I will tip religiously and regularly.. JUST to make sure that they realize that they should get paid..
but again, I -do- prefer live people ... I like to talk (as you can tell from my long posts), I like to interact.. I just dont like being ignored..
> musicians or dancers for buffs... several months straight
> of asking if people are buffing only to be ignored, told
> they are too busy, told they dont want to do it or told
> they dont know HOW (heck, -i- know how, and I am a combat
> class)."
> I'm afraid that there's a huge reservoir of despair
> that's grown among entertainers. Many feel that they
Trust me, I know..
I mastered entertainer and dabbled in musician and ID before I focussed on combat.> just don't get equal respect from other players for the
> job they do. This comes from the fact that most players
> don't say thank you for heals and buffs, and 80% (in my
> experience) don't tip entertainers, and tips are where
Which is why when I tip my healer or entertainer (which I do all the time) and they say thank you I make sure I say in spatial that I am paying for services rendered and that they deserve it.. I have actually gotten comments from aspiring medics and docs saying I didn't need to tip them since they got XP.. thats WRONG, they did me something nice, and I am going to do something nice in return.
When I am feeling burnt out on combat I load up my doc alt and go to med centers and help out people that the 'grinders dont... like those with disease or poison hitting them, or the poor guy who lost an argument with a krayt...
Of all the times I have done this with my doc, both healing live people as I worked my way up and as a master doc, I think I have been tipped or given something in return maybe 15 times... and thats a lot of healing up.. it's a problem that is endemic in the support professions, people do not have hard tangible proof of a benefit, i.e. a gun or armor or +2500 stats, so they dont think of it as "work"
> the cantina workers must make the money needed to enjoy
> the game's perks (vehicles, droids, clothes, etc.). Many
> entertainers have decided that if the majority of the
> community won't pay them or even thank them for the
> service they provide, they aren't going to provide the
> service. The alternative for them is to demand payment -
> something which is unpalatable for them and for their
> customers - just look at the response to those who do ask
Maybe a revamp of how the entertainer healing works is needed.. no not an ID style interface with mandatory payment, that would kill the profession I think.. but maybe a permission granted thing, sort of like joining a group.. have the entertainer be able to "invite to watch" or "invite to listen" to them to get the benefits of the healing.. a small extra step that will encourage people to interact and realize there is someone on the other end of the room who CAN help you.
> the time they spend gaining XP - many entertainers think
> it's a little unreasonable to expect them to give away
> the fruits of their labour for free. After all, they pay
I think it is unreasonable to expect them to give it away for free.. but then I have many times seen more than one person offering to pay, and pay good money (often 50%-100% higher than the cost of a doc buff) for a musician or dancer buff and have the sounds of crickets chirping come to mind...
But, in the interests of pay for play, if I -do- end up using a "buffbot" I make sure that I pay for services... there is one on my server that is "free, just tip me if you like the service" and I will tip religiously and regularly.. JUST to make sure that they realize that they should get paid..
but again, I -do- prefer live people ... I like to talk (as you can tell from my long posts), I like to interact.. I just dont like being ignored..
Akkurscid
Tue Jun 22, 2004 11:57 am
#35
Beery wrote:
I don't see what you're driving at here. Doctors aren't forced to take a second job. If they do so, they do so for fun, not out of necessity. As I said, cantina entertainer is the only profession in which you basicallyhave to take a second job to pay your bills. You may argue that those are the breaks, but apparently those are the breaks only if you decide to be a dancer or a musician. Every other profession is self-supporting, and I think the designers of the game meant for each profession to be independent - that way each player's play style is supported.
Yes Doctors have to have a side profession too, wether it be Crafting or Combat.If they don't they are in real trouble. It is very expensive to bea Doc. A full "factory crate" set of Premade Buffs costs well over a million credits. If you buy crates of Bivoli to go with it (you won't do much business at the starport without it)another quater million right there.
Master Dancer 6k a buff (what I pay) Master Musician another 6k. Much Lower Overhead (none infact if you are never killed)
Beery wrote:
I think I'm missing your point. I'm an entertainer. I don't understand what stackable defences are, and I don't understand what lower/higher combatdefences have to do with the issue we're talking about. These are combat issues. I don't like combat and I don't see why I should have to do it if I don't want to - that's my point. Similarly, if a combat professional doesn't like to dance or be an artisan, I see no reason why he should be forced to dance or craft. Professions - especiallyadvanced professions such as Dancer and Musician - should be self-sufficient in terms of money. Every otherprofession in the gameis financiallyself-sufficient. They can all make a living doing only what they do, and they can choose to (or not to)take up combat or non-combat professions if they want. Dancers and Musicians can't do that. They HAVE to take up secondary jobs in other unrelated fields if they are to get by financially.
This was a side point of mine. The reason the are not more Combatants (say pistoleers) who are also Entertainers (Pistoleer/Dancer for example) is because if the Pistolieer becomes a Pistoleer/Fencer the "Defenseive Bounses" of those two classes Stack together, a "Stackable Defense".Giving the player essentially twice the Defense of either a pistoleer or fencer only. If he only does the defense line from Fencer he can also getthe defense line of yet another class say Teras Kasi untill he becomes nearly unattackable. (you may have heardpeople in the combatforums complain of this, fencer is the only class Jedis are scared of)
For example: My friend used to be a Musician and a Carbineer but Carbineer by itself is not very combat worthy (actually poor) so he had to drop Musician in order to gain some better defense and medical skills.
This effects you in the Entertainer Profession Because... Right there you Lost another entertainer. One who could have beenbuffing my secondary mind stats(causing me to have much less need for a buff bot) and someone who would come play in the Cantinas often (because he did that often usually in the Bestine cantina, and whenever there was a guild shin dig at Jabbas)
Message Edited by Akkurscid on 06-22-2004 11:59 AM
Beery
Tue Jun 22, 2004 1:09 pm
#36
"um, I have to point out.. if we go full master BH, we dont HAVE any real options but being a BH.. 33 points left to play with.. "
Yeah, but your profession has an inherent mix of other professions. You chose the other professions (scout and marksman)by being a BH. Anyway, as Xyrdre says, your profession is financially self-supporting.
atimes
Tue Jun 22, 2004 1:20 pm
#37
If the devs intended for every profession in and of itself to be self supporting financiallythen each profession would take 250 skill points instead of many of them taking around 92.
If a doctor sell meds then they are a doc/artisan. If they kill stuff they aredoc/combat. If they only sit around in the star port all day and buff then the guy they bought the buffs from is a doc/artisan. If they make their own meds then they are a doc/artisan since they have to survey for materials. If they do a combo of the three (like my doc alt) then they are a doc/combat/artisan/scout type character.
In order for acrafter to sell stuff they need to have a vendor and since most good crafters have multiple vendors that means they are a weaponsmith/merchant
If you are a dedicated entertainer you have themeans to make money. You either chargefor mindbuffs or you rely on tips. If that's not enough spend 92 points on a combat profession so you can make money doing destroy missions. You have enough skill poins to be a dancer AND an elite combat profession.
BH is a self supporting profession because it has a multitude of skills which it can draw upon. A master dancer only has one skill set so I think the intention is for you to augment your skill set if you feel that the money making opportunites you have isn't adequate.
Picking up a combat profession may be a boring solution but it IS nevertheless a solution.
Many Bounty Hunters hate the fact that we have to dabble in other combat profs to be worth a flip in PvP. Our reasoning is we just spent 217 points for a combat profession. Why in the world after spending 217 points do I have to dip into ANOTHER combat profession just to stand a chance in PvP? The BH skillset on its on is lacking in terms of PvP so we adapt. We may not like spending all of our 33 points into pistoleer or carbineer but we do it because it's the only way to survive.
If dabbling in dancer would enhance the Bounty Hunter the BH's would do it and do it in droves. After all you guys do get more melee defense than we do.
Message Edited by atimes on 06-22-2004 04:36 PM
Akkurscid
Tue Jun 22, 2004 1:34 pm
#38
Beery wrote:
If doctors didn't get thousands in tips per heal, I'd agree with you. Doctors are well able to afford to run their business independently.
Anyway, I think we're going round and round on this issue, and it's not really on topic, so I'm going to stop discussing it here. If others want to discuss it, feel free. But my typing finger is too tired.
Message Edited by Beery on 06-22-2004 04:04 PM
One of my friendsis a Master Doctor. He never gets tips for heals or diesease cures and he is poor all the time. I bought 1/2 of his gear, my other friend who is a commando bought the other 1/2, and his house.
I do see your points yesentertainers should get paid for thier services yesentertainers should have much more content. Yes even Buff bots should go way, but IMO not today.
But yes we are going around, have a good day
Ariven
Tue Jun 22, 2004 2:20 pm
#39
Beery wrote:
I agree with most of your points.
"Maybe a revamp of how the entertainer healing works is needed.. no not an ID style interface with mandatory payment, that would kill the profession I think.. "
It worked for ID. That profession is thriving. One of the majorproblems with entertainers is the tip system. It just doesn't work. Few people tip, and that is doing more to kill the cantina
I was thinking of
1) A nice big window blocking you and your customer from seeing anything going on
2) the fact that you said most entertainers dont want to demand payment...
a simple /ComeWatchMe or /ComeListenToMe command that requires the entertainr specifically target people, and be able to issue it to more than one person at a time, would allow for that interaction and if they dont ask to be healed they dont get it..
It would force them to have to interact with the entertainers to get healed, hopefully making them realize that there can be people there.