CUEmu - Thread Posts

Pappi

Wed Feb 23, 2005 1:55 pm

Schardour wrote:
Silence, eh? Then let the tickling commence!

(Interrogation is still a good excuse, no?)

no grilling unless it's hamburgers for me

Pappi Inc Tailoring (home of the black tax) - Odi's meds and chef tissues - closed
- I support literacy, common sense, and apostrophes

Xyrdre

Thu Feb 24, 2005 12:53 pm

#28

Well, okay. How's about a few less weasely words after all...

I'll cross-post my message from the Musician forums, in response to Warryyr's thread about not giving up the fight, losing a battle but trying to win the war, etc. (by the way, something I think is a pretty good way to look at it)...

Now would be a very bad time for anyone to give up the fight. You may miss out.

I can't say much, but one thing I can say is that right now, your Correspondents are working serious overtime hours in talks... more directly than perhaps ever seen before in the Correspondent program on behalf of the entertainer professions, and things are happening. I don't know yet where it will all lead, but I know that things are happening.

Hang in there, and let your agents (the entertainer Corres) try to work our magic. Our time is at hand.

I mean it though... I really can'tsay anything yet. Things are happening, and there is a lot of communication going on - in both directions in there - but everything's still in too early a stageto talk about.

Panthu wrote:

This kind of talk about Devs not caring would make Tyrant cry... look:

SOETyrant wrote:

Ravanne_Esi wrote:

This publish is the death knell for live musicians. SOE's recent changes in enterrtainer buffs and healing makes perfect sense now, as with the introduction of player event jukeboxes live musicians are no longer viable. I'm sure the next big announcement will include a new dance droid, with many wonderfuly coreographed routines and they will all display properly to the viewer. Unless you are a buffbot the musician profession is now worthless.

Message Edited by Ravanne_Esi on 02-24-2005 08:11 AM

I wouldn't give up now, we have some pretty positive changes coming for all entertainers shortly. We will be posting on this sometime next week. Live performances still have clear advantages over the jukebox btw, but not everyone can round up a band.

There will be a post coming from Tyrant regarding all this stuff. And there is a lot of your Corres'feedback going into that as well, from all early indications. Believe me... I've been really pulling the late-night and long hours on this one, going for the best.

Deila Karlossi , Blue Glowie of Dancers, and become more powerful than you could possibly imagine...

PoetDancer

Thu Feb 24, 2005 2:36 pm

#29

Pardon my cynicism, Delia. But how do I know that the changeswill producea profession I would still like to play?

You all say you want a vision statement of where the profession is to go. To tell you the truth, I'm wondering myself with this new crowd of developers. Because I knew exactly what I and entertainment was supposed to do in this game. We had it. The developers knew exactly what this class was about in the beginning. I know it. And I venture to say that this class worked in exactly the way Ralph Koster imagined it would.

People complain the cantina is boring. Had it ever occured to anyone that it has to be boring? Have you told these developers who have never been around in those initial meetings with Ralph Koster this, Delia? Because if the cantina isn't boring, then how are we supposed to make this boring place amusing? Have you explained this sufficiently, Delia, and do they understand it?

People complain dancing is boring. Had it ever occured to anyone that if it were the most exiting thing out there, you'd pay to do it instead of be paid to do it? Hasn't it occured to anyone that if we aren't surveying, aren't looting, and aren't crafting, we'd better do some sort of work that other players don't want to do so we can justify why we should get tipped? Hasn't it? Why the heck do we deserve tips or pay at all if cantina work is more fun than work?

Its tough work, and that's why I loved it. Its hard work, and that's why I loved it. That's why it takes a special type of person to do the things we do. Not everyone has the patience for it. And have you told this new development crew that it is for these reasons we are in this profession? Not because it is easy and boring, but because its hard and challenging? Have you told them Delia, that there is a reason other players think this profession is boring and simple, and that's because they do not understand why the professions are the way they are for a reason, and that is to attract and foster the exact sort of personalities and behaviours from the player base that this profession requires?

Did you tell them how complex and intricate the play really is, how what we do looks on the surface to be mind numbingly simple, but belies a reality that is much more complex? Did you explain to them that this class is not just about BF healing, mind wound healing, and buffs; but also about venue choice, reading our patrons, making choices concering attire, and dialouge? Where the skills that are emphasized are observation, immersion, attentiveness, aesthetics, interpersonal relations, and psychological problem solving? Have you? Or did you just give the same old mantra I hear so often as of late of "wwwaahhhh! There's nothing to do?"

Did you explain to this new development staff that the reason we like this profession so much is that we enjoy the complex, player driven and personality driven gameplayof this profession a whole lot more than the rather system driven and developer drivengameplay of other professions? That thegameplayis no less real and worthy of consideration as a major game system, simply because they are not tied directly to the game mechanics, but flow as a result of them?

Did you tell them that getting tipped for observing who goes in and out of the cantina was a valid, planned, and forseen means of gaining an income?

Did you tell them that the tips we were receiving at the starport was not a quirky act of charity, but something that any fool with a class in psychology or sociology could predict would happen when you create aprofession that specializes in making boring spaces amusing, and they amuse in a boring starport line? Have you? Did you tell them and explain to them that our purpose is to make the boring places in this game more amusing? And did you tell them that by removing the potentially boring spaces in this game, they remove major chunks of content for us? Did you say this, and did they understand this?

Because the problems we haveare not as a result of a lack of vision. We don't need a vision statement, dancers. Ralph Koster knew, I know, and I venture to say everybody who was on that initial development team knew exactly what this class was about:creating boring spaces that they left up to us to make more amusing. The initial developers created exactly the type of system that would work.

The problem was they did not have the courage to do what it took to follow and maintain this vision.

Instead of supporting their vision, they started to compromise their vision by responding to the spoiled and selfish demands of other players who cared more for their Jedi unlocking, self-sustaining cities, mechanics on demand; and now, music on demand. Players who wanted all the things they wanted from the class, but would rather cry, moan, and threaten the developers to quit unless they got their way.

And now it seems, these new developers are so detached to the thinking, reasoning, and understanding of the founders of this game that they actually are starting to believe that this class was poorly designed. As I show, it wasn't. Only Ralph "Holocron" Koster himself can tell me I'm wrong, and I'm pretty sure he won't do it. This class was designed perfectly. It was just very poorly maintained.

So you can tell the developers this, Delia. Tell them PoetDancer doesn't want this class revamped. Tell them PoetDancer wants this class repaired to allow me the ability to do what I do best: make the mundane more amusing.

Message Edited by PoetDancer on 02-24-2005 04:35 PM

Madame Sirii Ajaan
August 2003-September 15, 2005
"There is a difference between being /watched and being WATCHED."

LyteFoot

Thu Feb 24, 2005 3:25 pm

#30

/CHEER Well said Sirii! Add my name to that list. Leave us alone fix all the shortcuts that are stopping us from doing what we do.

Elwyn LyteFoot - Corbantis server

Lynnaea

Thu Feb 24, 2005 3:33 pm

#31

Add me as well, please. The basic concept of the entertainment profession is just perfect to me. The devs should try to fix the problems before attempting to rebuild the profession. Then, and only then, should a revamp be considered.

___Lynnaea_____________________________

R L Y ? òO R L Y

___________________________________________Ydairis_____

DarkY0da

Thu Feb 24, 2005 3:41 pm

#32

But it is now. 2 years of things not improving. While the "boring" aspect of our work may have been on done with a reason (although that would really be stretching the credit I'm willing to give the Devs). I still believe that parts of our game, as well as how many parts of the game around us had design flaws. Flaws which likely could have been mitigated or fixed early on but were instead directly encouraged or in-directly encouraged.

At this point in time I don't believe they really can leave us alone. I don't want to be left alone. In 2 years I've gotten 1 broken dance with a variant.

At this point I don't think that leaving us alone will do anything to fix the now deeply engrained view of us by other players. The deeply engrained use of us that is encouraged by the Devs in the tools they give, the rules they use and the way they are changing, designing and re-designing this game.

I could be wrong of course. But I think it would still take a miracle at this point to be left alone and still come out of this better then before. I think the game would be shut down before the damage that has been done would be repaired.

Oh-Orb Rizo Twi'lek
Just hanging out... watching with interest what changes do or don't happen.

I support the NDE. (New Drygo Experience)
Server Pop Snap-Shot Feb. 06 link

Panthu

Thu Feb 24, 2005 4:16 pm

#33

PoetDancer wrote:

Pardon my cynicism, ~~Delia~~ Deila.

And now it seems, these new developers are so detached to the thinking, reasoning, and understanding of the founders of this game that they actually are starting to believe that this class was poorly designed. As I show, it wasn't. Only Ralph "Holocron" Koster himself can tell me I'm wrong, and I'm pretty sure he won't do it. This class was designed perfectly. It was just very poorly maintained. Actually, Holo himself did tell me that the Ent profs were never finished when I was introduced to him last summer... and he was the one who led the mantra of "Ents need more stuff to do" as far as I know. At least, he was the first Dev to ever say that to me (in an email exchange passed through TH right after I became DC) and every Dev I heard say it afterwards was referring to his statements. Soooooo.... *shrug*

Also, Tyrant and Holo go way back. They've been going to the same conferences and professional committees and speaking engagements and whatever for a long time now. Tyrant made some of the most profound statements ever made by a game big wig about Social Gaming when he was back on TSO that still surface constantly.

Of course Holo rocks, I mean, come on, he is awesome... but the game has not fallen to poop because he moved on, we are not in less capable hands, and he never claimed Ents were a finished design.

Message Edited by Panthu on 02-24-2005 06:17 PM

P A N T H U Y GlitterUsagi
M i n d B o d y S p i r i t
Dancer ImageDesigner Doc

PoetDancer

Thu Feb 24, 2005 4:37 pm

#34

Window dressing, Panthu. And every profession lacked it in the beginning. But I still maintain, the core concept of this profession is the attempt to make the mundane into the spectacular, within the limits of what we can do.

And right now, I am wondering where the boring spaces that are set aside for us to make more amusing are to be found, when this development staff seems quick to eliminate such spaces at every turn.

Message Edited by PoetDancer on 02-24-2005 05:38 PM

Madame Sirii Ajaan
August 2003-September 15, 2005
"There is a difference between being /watched and being WATCHED."

Panthu

Thu Feb 24, 2005 4:56 pm

#35

Do you really honestly believe that it's fair to ask for a "boring space" that everyone has to sit through, even when we aren't there? Do you also think it's fair to Dancers to have to stay in a boring place for all of their gameplay? I asked for Cantinas to be made to be fun because I do believe we are fun enough to outshine them when we are there... but it never occurred to me that there really were Dancers who wanted Cantinas to be boring just so they would seem more fun as a Dancer than they really were.

Isn't that kind of like desperate? Isn't that sort of like having our mom buy our friends? We Social Players, that's what we're great at! Making friends, drawing people out, and having fun with other people in the game world whether they are busy doing other things or not. Why on earth would we need to make people suffer to seem more fun? We already are fun!

Message Edited by Panthu on 02-24-2005 07:02 PM

P A N T H U Y GlitterUsagi
M i n d B o d y S p i r i t
Dancer ImageDesigner Doc

Rookaru

Thu Feb 24, 2005 5:08 pm

#36

PoetDancer wrote:

Window dressing, Panthu. And every profession lacked it in the beginning. But I still maintain, the core concept of this profession is the attempt to make the mundane into the spectacular, within the limits of what we can do.

And right now, I am wondering where the boring spaces that are set aside for us to make more amusing are to be found, when this development staff seems quick to eliminate such spaces at every turn.

Message Edited by PoetDancer on 02-24-2005 05:38 PM

I can't honestly believe that someone posted this. It must be a joke. Maybe you should cancel your account and go back to playing MUD's, because I can't think ofany game typein theworld where that attitude even kinda makes sense.

Durgani TC Roughneck
Dragul Starsider RSE
Durgani Ahazi -SR-

PoetDancer

Thu Feb 24, 2005 7:09 pm

#37

Rookaru wrote:

I can't honestly believe that someone posted this. It must be a joke. Maybe you should cancel your account and go back to playing MUD's, because I can't think ofany game typein theworld where that attitude even kinda makes sense.

I posted it.Explain tome why this doesn't make sense.

Because if you think it doesn't make sense, then you would probably also think that theatres with empty stages are just as exciting as theatres when plays are staged.

I thought this wasa simulation of life in a galaxy far, far away. Maybe you should go back to playing Doom or Quake, where one doesn't need to worry about things such as making choices, filling niches, and creating fullness and depth.

But I don't deny it. You want to transform this game into something that let's you get to "the good stuff." Well you are getting it. The development team seems committed to giving it to you. No need to tell me to quit the game. The development squad seems bent on making it happen.

But as a performer, I am wondering how is it that I can compete for your attention given that everything you want to do is so much more action packed and danger filled, and its so much easier to get to it now. I used to make a good living amusing patrons at those places where everyone was congregated at. I don't deny it. The "timesinks" were my niche. My opportunity to showcase my skills in a manner that no other class is quite geared to do.

So when timesinks get removed, my role gets diminished. When the mechanics you /watch or /listen to get are more speedily obtained, theneed to do it in an amusing way gets diminished. Combine this with the license everyone has to set up an unattended alt, and what do I really have left?

Everything you want. You get to your "good stuff." But where does that leave me, who makes the "boring stuff" more fun? Where are my opportunities to showcase my talents? I thought that's what I was supposed to be doing around here. I did it. I made the cantinas more interesting. I made the starports more interesting. I made the med centre more interesting. I made events more interesting. Give me a place where players congregate and want to look at something interesting, and I'll find a way to make a career out of it. Believe it or not, I got paid for it.

Yes. There were boring things and boring places in this game. Excuse me for thinking that it was better to try and make these things more amusing through my own gameplay. Excuse me for making an in game career around trying to make these things more fun. I was good at it. I still am. And frankly, you didn't want to do it, soI did. Pardon me for doing what I thought I was supposed to do as an entertainer.

And yes. I'm wondering where there is an audience that is bored and wants to be amused. If I can find that out, I can make it in this profession. Because if they are not bored, I'm just clutter and in the way.

So yes. I posted it. Believe it, because its no joke. It would be nice if they could, but I don't need the developers to give me content as much as I need them to create spaces where I can perform for an audience. Player events don't cut it, because even if they happened weekly, I'd still have six days where nobody is in the mood to be amused by a professional entertainer. I can have a livelihood if I can just discover those places I can make more exiting by being there and performing. And those places: the cantina, the starports, and even player houses now are not conducive to allowing players like me the liberty toamuse the players there.

Message Edited by PoetDancer on 02-24-2005 08:49 PM

Madame Sirii Ajaan
August 2003-September 15, 2005
"There is a difference between being /watched and being WATCHED."

Panthu

Thu Feb 24, 2005 7:49 pm

#38

I think it's going to be ok, Sirii, I really do. /comfort

I admit I don't know all the changes that are coming, but I don't think Cantinas are being abandoned. I think we are still going to be allowed a space of our own and reasons for people to come see us. If that goes away, I really would be shocked because I haven't heard anything from the Devs ever to make me think they were giving up on that part of the concept.

Let's just hang on for this week or however long it takes for us to get this news the Devs are bringing us. I can see Deila's gears whirring even if I don't know what's happening completely yet. People (Devs) keep saying odd things in the Glowie friendly forum about what an integral part of the game we and Cantinas are... I think we're going to be ok, I really do.

We've waited this long, just a bit more...

P A N T H U Y GlitterUsagi
M i n d B o d y S p i r i t
Dancer ImageDesigner Doc

Rookaru

Thu Feb 24, 2005 8:12 pm

#39

PoetDancer wrote:

................ But where does that leave me, who makes the "boring stuff" more fun? Where are my opportunities to showcase my talents? I thought that's what I was supposed to be doing around here. ............. Yes. There were boring things and boring places in this game.............. I'm wondering where there is an audience that is bored and wants to be amused. If I can find that out, I can make it in this profession. Because if they are not bored, I'm just clutter and in the way................

The "boring" parts of the game are where the content is lacking or the currrent design is failing. Going to a cantina was never supposed to be boring. It's so very noble of you to want to help us have more fun, but why do you insist on holding on to the broken aspects of your profession instead of focusing on becoming a real valid game style choice. There are not enough martrys left playing to keep entertaining going the way it currently functions. What would honestly be so bad about using your talents to make the game more fun in a more active role? None of us are being punished here. We can all have fun and leave the crosses in the closet.

Durgani TC Roughneck
Dragul Starsider RSE
Durgani Ahazi -SR-

Dancer Archive

Thread: Developers, it is not my fault.