Dancer Archive
Thread: Rumor: end of the bots
Panthu wrote:
I think we're going to get the same fix here that all the other AFK activities get, those are the vibes I've been getting lately. I did submit like 5 proposals with a combo menu option/random code thingy just for us... but I'm a little worried even if it does come with a "mini game", it might still get on Dancers' nerves.
Are you getting a different vibe?
I'm worried that whatever we get it will only be a hassle felt by the ATK performers and the bot owners will quickly find a workaround either with a line command or by using a (hard to detect or control) 3rd party macro app.
When performing, weonly use macros for costume changes, changedance countdown and lighting sequences.We use them because performingthe dance/flourish sequences we like to useand spontaneously chatting with others takes more fingers and mouse clicks thanwe have available. I really don't want to have to deal with a pop-up.
NewJedi wrote:I'd like that too, Tiaga. But wouldn't it require re-working the buff code so that it looks to performance duration rather than number of flourishes performed? I have the impression that any proposal to tinker with the buff code gives the devs fits.
Right now it does duration AND flourishes. The change I suggest would simply remove it from flourishes. It's really silly on flourishes anyway as 3 flourishes give you a 100% buff most the time, 10 at most. With the existing system, altering just that one thing (Taking buff percentage off flourishes) would do exactly as I said. Buffs would take a little over 2 minutes to reach full potency, as far as percentage.
To be honest I'm a little cautious about any of the popup proposals. The code on destroying buildings is to prevent accidentally destroying them. What's a code on buffs going to do, prevent accidental buffing? Not to mention it would make doing large groups of people difficult and annoying, and it's immersion breaking. Making the code a series of flourishes is marginally better, but I can see it becoming annoying. Popups that ask for something like surveying events would become annoying too, I imagine. It's annoying for surveying, but people rarely complain because you don't have people spending a lot of time surveying. Mostly it's just used to find and sample resources Not to mention it doesn't really do either of what it intended to do. It doesn't stop macros, and it doesn't make surveying any more interesting.
Esharra wrote:
.....But the last 2 months I've had a much higher percentage of /setp buffs fail.....
). That is my biggest fear Kirah. Can't say I've seen any posts from the AFK levelers complaining about the 15 sec start delay (may have missed them). It's probable that any who were using the stop/start exploit have long since dropped the profession. But the nerf on us is still there.
kirah_ashlin wrote:
/agree 100% with Tiaga's post (what I can understand of it
If the devs impliment the flo popup TH brought up for discussion, I will at best remove my Master Dancer title ingame and at the worst - stop dancing altogether. They have to come up with a better way for live entertainers- or get rid of the buffs completely, as I see it. Otherwise, the buffbots will flourish (literally) and the live ents will perish . . . .
Esharra wrote:Can't say I've seen any posts from the AFK levelers complaining about the 15 sec start delay (may have missed them). It's probable that any who were using the stop/start exploit have long since dropped the profession. But the nerf on us is still there.
But the knowledge is still there. If they removed the 15 second stuff it would just happen all over again.
Out of this whole entire AFKing/buffbot thing I still just feel like I did the first time I realized that the reason why that dancer in the corner wasn't answering anyone was because she was AFK:
We are reduced to NPCs.
Someone came up to me over the weekend, /pointat-ed and said "I need an invite to it's group, whoever has leader." Not "her," not "the dancer," not "Doriana." IT. I was not even a person, I was an NPC. An it.
One person out of many, most people don't feel that way, right? Perhaps. But most people do the same thing only use "the dance group." How is the sentiment behind that any different? I'm still just an NPC.
Non-entertainers have told me "So? Just dump the prof and do something fun instead of that stupid stuff, like CM/rifle." So I feel like I'm humored for caring about my profession. For enjoying it and wanting it to be respected. Like I shouldn't care if we're NPCs, because I should just agree, what's it matter anyway?
And I guess I'm starting to get to the point after all this time... a year of fighting AFKers now...that I'm starting to wonder why I AM fighting any more. But like so many others have mentioned, I won't be dropping the skills, just the game. A game where the developers sit back and let an entire subset of player classes degenerate into non-player classes because it's "fair."
My hope is hanging by a thread, and once it's gone I will be too. But when it comes down to it, I can still have fun sometimes. I still have my friends, and I still do other things in game.
I don't even know why Im' babbling here, again, heh. That one little word this weekend just really hurt more than a slap in the face ever could, I guess.
Doriana wrote:
And I guess I'm starting to get to the point after all this time... a year of fighting AFKers now...that I'm starting to wonder why I AM fighting any more. But like so many others have mentioned, I won't be dropping the skills, just the game. A game where the developers sit back and let an entire subset of player classes degenerate into non-player classes because it's "fair."
This in many ways is the core of our problem. The DEVs don't really have any idea of what it means to be a "social" player. I don't know if it comes from all the DEVs being guys (no offense meant to the guys) or that the type of person who becomes a DEV is just not a great socializer or from some other reason all together, but they just don't seem to "get it".
Even things like many of the emotes, which can be a great tool for socializing and RPing are more like guys in a locker room with things like /puke and /lick and /bite to name a few.Why no /holdhands, no /staredeepintoeyes? Until someone who understands what it means to be a social person and not just someone playing a game gets a say in how this game is developed I don't see much hope for real change.
Just my 2cr.
Ravanne_Esi wrote:
Even things like many of the emotes, which can be a great tool for socializing and RPing are more like guys in a locker room with things like /puke and /lick and /bite to name a few.Why no /holdhands, no /staredeepintoeyes? Until someone who understands what it means to be a social person and not just someone playing a game gets a say in how this game is developed I don't see much hope for real change.
Just my 2cr.
I have often wondered why Roho and I are forced to create our own emotes to hold hands, look deeply into each others eyes, etc. I mean - these aren't exactly M rated emotes here. So many of the emotes are very much in line with locker room speech - high school locker room . . . . You don't have to be female to understand what a social player needs to enjoy a game. There are a good number of male social players.
Still, I can't help but feel that the developers are coming at our profession - this grand experiment - backwards. They seem to be trying to "fix" it from the wrong direction. We want "social" content to our play. We want to be a viable part of the SWG economy. We want protection against buffbots and exploits that degrade and destroy our class. We don't want to "reward and encourage" ATK play - we want to eliminate AFK abusers and buffbots! We don't want "fixes" put in place that gives a small boost to leveling ATK entertainers at the expense of the Masters.
We are the "social" class. And for the record - if it weren't for the friends I've made ingame who I "socialize" with (ents and non-ents alike) I doubt I would be here right now. We need our issues addressed - we don't need a bandaid placed on a wound that is practically healed on its own. Especially one that could cause more harm than good because it actually keeps the wound from breathing . . . and if the devs go through with this flo popup "fix" I'm afraid that gangrene will set in.
I feel a bit better now though. I also just mistyped that as "bitter," and spent a moment deciding which one I really meant.
I've been refusing to help/train/group with AFKers since I first realized what was going on back in the day and when people asked me why I was such a b**** the reason was always because AFKing devalues the profession and reduces us to NPCs. And I always got laughed at. I guess now that it has finally fully happened I'm just feeling completely overwhelmed.
I don't want any "interaction" fixes, either....I still say if they significantly reduce AFK exping and remove AFK buffing "entertainer-customer interaction" will fall back into place as natural course. If it's done soon, that is. I don't mean "after JTL," and I don't mean "after combat revamp," I mean now. And yeah, I know there supposedly are't the resources, there isn't enough time, htere's this and that and the other that are more important, but...the hope hinges on now because every day another group of people stops thinking of us as people and starts thinking of us as the NPCs AFKers and bots portray us as.
Just a side note that the same thing is happening to doctors, but just more slowly. Of course my attempts to try to get support from docs got me laughed at too, but.. I don't want to see this happen to ALL support professions. And I thnk it will if it doesn't get stopped here.
A lady I work with has a poster on her desk, says something like "All it takes for evil to win the world is for enough good men to do nothing." Every time I see that poster, I think of this situation and I wonder, when are the good men going to do something?
Anyway, I certainly agree with Kirah that the reason I'm still here is my friends. And of course that includes you guys here, because knowing that I'm not the only person fighting this war is what's kept me fighting so long. A year, now.
So sorry about going off topic and ranting, I just needed to get that out my system.
kirah_ashlin wrote:
. . . and if the devs go through with this flo popup "fix" I'm afraid that gangrene will set in.
AFAIK, we aren't going to have the Survey style pop-up. I hope not, I have a near freak out every time it's mentioned in the Corr Forum or in any Dev Communication. I haven't heard this particular example in a while.
For my part, here are the last things I submitted along those lines:
For the Pre-Combat Balance Changes request submitted 07-13-2004
Stopping non-stop Dancing
Problem: Dancing can be done with out a break indefinitely. This creates the idea that there is no effort involved, cheapens the appreciation for Dancers, and promotes Unattended play. It is also totally unrealistic. A Master Dancer sees no reward in Endurance and Stamina over a Novice Entertainer though logic and reality tell us that physical training should increase these Traits.
Solution: Put in place a check on non-stop dancing by causing a Dancer to Cramp and fall after a certain period of time based on the Dancer’s +Dance Knowledge. This will stop the Dancer from animating and they must restart. Also, require a “Warm Up” at the beginning of every Dance Session. The Warm Up should be good for the period of time as set by the Dancer’s +Dance Knowledge and not effect /startdance commands during that period. The Warm Up should also give a boost to Quickness much as the TKA’s Power Boost gives a Percentage Buff to the three Primary Stats. The Warm Up should either be a click based UI or Random Generated Flourishes. It should also most likely require a Random Code Prompt to start.
Note: If a Dancer tries to /startdance without having successfully “warmed up” during their allotted time period, they will get a “You must Warm Up before you may start Dancing” System message. Time passed before next Warp Up is needed should be something like the following: Novice Entertainer - 20 mins Dancing 1 - 40 mins Dancing 2 - 1 hour Dancing 3 - 1 hour and 20 mins Dancing 4 - 1 hour and 40 mins Novice Dancer - 2 hours Dance Knowledge 1 - 2 hours 20 mins Dance Knowledge 2 - 2 hours 40 mins Dance Knowledge 3 - 3 hours Dance Knowledge 4 - 4 hours Master Dancer - 6 hours
Interactive Healing
Problem: Dancer Buffing and Healing can be 100% macroed with in game tools making the service unworthy of payment to many players and unchallenging for live Dancers.
Solution: Make all Dancer Healing/Buffing Interactive, Fun, and Profitable.
Example: Make any Buffing and Healing targeted only and only good for ten minutes. Pick a person to heal/buff first and have a radial menu with “Look over” that would work as a Dancer’s Diagnose to show BF, Mind Wounds, and any Active Ent Buffs... and a second radial menu for “Direct Performance.” If Direct Performance is chosen, a confirm box will pop up with a random alphanumeric code needed for re-entry, just like the structure deletion confirmation. If the code is entered incorrectly after three tries, the player must wait ten minutes before trying again.
The player also has the option of giving a Buff with three reusable charges by playing a “Dance Game” (like the Ent Quests) requiring certain random ordered Flourishes and Change Dances or the player can do nothing but Dance for the remaining ten minutes and heal BF and give a buff at the non-flourishing rate which should be hard coded to ten minutes. The “Dance Game” option should take three minutes and be immediately repeatable if failed. Meaning, player would not have to go through the radial menu and code entry part again, just the game itself. If ten minutes passes before the game is successfully completed, the Patron still gets the Passive Ten Minute Hardcoded Buff.
Playing the game should increase all XP gain by 30% and successful completion of the game should increase all XP by 200% and also provide a “Cantina Salary” paid for by the NPC Cantina Owner in appreciation for the Service to the Establishment’s Customers. Both the income and the XP bonus should last for about thirty minutes with out any additional healing.
For the submissions from the Combat Correspondent Talks after the Combat Revamp Annoucement 07-19-2004
Dance Games for Cantinas, Camps, and Bases
Allow Dancers the option of playing a “dance game” where random Flourish and Change Dance Requests are made by the System. While playing this game, all Healing and Buffing would be drastically sped up and both Entertainment Healing XP gain and Dancing XP gain would also increase drastically (suggested 10 times greater gain than while not playing the game).
There were earlier versions from the CB and GCW submissions too... the ones from 07-13-2004 focus heavily on destroying AFK Bots pretty much completely... the one from 07-19-2004 only uses the "dance game" as an option and does nothing to stop AFK completely... but it also wouldn't hamper ATK Dancers at all.
The change came due to your reactions to the In Concept thread and because this was a suggestion from the Combat Correspondents talks where Combat was the main focus. They were nice enough to allow Ent Corr involvement and actually spent the better part of the first half of the talks coming up with Entertainer changes and additions. Also, we have had Dev communications hinting at AFK solutions that would span across the board... if something like this is ever implemented, we would not really need special checks for AFK over-usage.
I'm about to post in the Correspondent forum and email TH with quotes from this thread and also suggest an Ent Focus Feedback session again. This is something that they have shown interest in before, so maybe it can happen at some point.
If you go into these forums, then most of the responses will come from the type of people who want to create a game where they can get what they need, when they need it, without needing other players around to do it. They will not understand or care that it hurts your playstyle, or even see how it hurts theirs. The "old time docs" still exist..but we're heavily outnumbered. Its why I kind of am reading your forums rather than my own....not really trolling I guess b/c I"m not here to flame but support.
Message Edited by kirah_ashlin on 07-28-2004 07:07 AM