Dancer Archive
Thread: Pro/Anti AFK/Bot/Macro All Purpose Sticky
Oqua
Fri Sep 24, 2004 8:06 am
#300
Doc,
AFK zombies/Bots have impacted the classes of Musician and Dancer in a negative way, ways I and numerous others have listed for you and many others to see (not going to list them again and go on and on about that...the past posts are in this thread for easy access *smile*).
Now...what I will say to you is this:
For you to come here to athread and bascially "grief" yes grief our class is shameful. When doctors are given our class abilities then I will fully expect yours....or for you to be replaced by a big blue frog in front of everycity/outposts starport or shuttle (like on the test centers).
I can't count how manytimes I have been told by adoctor "I am tired of buffing..no more buffs ...so and so is the last person in line...sorry folks, I have other things I want to do other then buff". Mind you, they weren't all said in a nice way either.
Or how about the number of times I have been hunting in early/late hours and can't find a doctor...or there is one there just chatting with another toon and can't be bothered?
Does that make your right to have a viable class any less valid? Because sugar, I have seen it all and been treated like crap by more then just your "very small number of players".
You say it will cause a "disruption for a lot of players...for a small gain for a very small number"....yet chastize Dreamland for throwing out made up figures. I say thats a case for the pot calling the kettle black. *small sardonic smile* Where are your facts to back that up? I see many who posted in Thunderhearts original post that they supported this removal of afk play (and they weren't just entertainers).
We are fighting for our classes purpose and viability in a game we thoroughly enjoy and love. Why do you wish to take that away from us because you might have to go without sometime in the game...or actually have to look for a buff/bf heal from time to time? Thats only what one is expected to do with EACH CLASS IN THE GAME....unless you have your own personal slicer, doctor, armorsmith, weaponsmith, etc.
Hopefully taking away afk play and bots will be one of the catalysts to get the cantina's bustling with live entertainers like they were before holos/mindbuffs were prevalent. Hopefully this will be the beginning of much needed attention from the devs to getmusician/dancer classesback(in the eyes of other gamers)to where they should be...an ELITE PROFESSION...one that takes many many skill points (as well as much dedication and heart)as the other elite professions do in the game.
Maybe then we will get a little bit of compassion ...and some long overdue respect...from players such as yourself...*sardonic smile* "the vocal minority". 
***side note*** as to the name calling? Hopefully you are referring to both sides of the fence...for its hard to be civil (I know I have had a devil of a time doing it) when someone not knowing about your class, comes to your backyard so to speak and calls you "stupid, liar, whiny, etc. etc." without some form of retaliation. I am surprised many of us have kept our tongues as well as we have. *sweet smile* One can only wonder how others on their own areas (forums) of expertise would take to being called that.
Message Edited by Oqua on 09-24-2004 08:12 AM
Toothman
Fri Sep 24, 2004 8:25 am
#301
I used to think that the game would be better without the AFK macroing or buff bots. Even though entertainers could only be found then in a few places at least they COULD be found on almost all the starter planets and a couple of the others. With hologrinding done it is an entertainer wasteland out there. I go weeks without seeing a real entertainer now which leaves me with what.......................................... AFK macroing entertainers and buff bots. So until real entertainers can come up with a way for me to get the services I need with regularity I now have to vote FOR the AFK macro and buff bots.
Aida
Fri Sep 24, 2004 8:28 am
#302
The REAL entertainers arnt there cause they have no way of competing with a buffbot.
You can use a buffbot for free, and you dont have to interact.............
Oqua
Fri Sep 24, 2004 8:54 am
#303
Toothman wrote:
So until real entertainers can come up with a way for me to get the services I need with regularity I now have to vote FOR the AFK macro and buff bots.
Define regularity...if you mean "when I want wherever I want"...think about when you can get that for any other class really...oh yes, thats right...you can't.
Again...argument is all about convenience, and sorry, its not in the entertainers job description to be the beck and call buffers/healers of the galaxy. Its not in anyone elses...why should it be in ours?
Buffbots and afkzombies have given you the false security to expect that. See how the cause and effect thing is working here?
Before buffbots/afkzombies were rampant the cantinas were bustling with mostly "live" entertainers. In fact, I have seen an increase in live entertainers since the announcement that the devs were finally fixing this long plaguing abuse (lets call a spade a spade). Mind you, this is on my server...so before anyone comes and says "nuh uh!" please view this statement as my disclaimer.
We have a good case to cite as a precedent as well....look at ID'ers and stat migration? I don't see the populace dying at the steps of a salon waiting for an ID'er, their play completely halting. There was a huge outcry about that too though...remember?
Give us a chance before you condemn us..especially when the problem is something that so many are clinging to as the only hope for their game play to continue.
*starts her mantra* If you get rid of them...they will come.
Nacoa
Fri Sep 24, 2004 9:09 am
#304
Toothman wrote:
So until real entertainers can come up with a way for me to get the services I need with regularity I now have to vote FOR the AFK macro and buff bots.
The lack of entertainers is caused by the buffbots. Once buffbots are gone there will be more entertainers. I know I'll be playing my entertainer alt more often, since it'll actually be fun.
Trust in "the invisible hand". It created lots of Doctors in the game, so you can usually find a doc buff. It will also create entertainers once buffbots are gone.
Rhendal
Fri Sep 24, 2004 2:51 pm
#305
AFK buff bots placed in public cantinas take healing XP that would otherwise be spread around an entire group of entertainers. I have now mastered dance two separate times and the scenario has been repeated time and again. A player comes in with obvious mind damage (forget checking BF since we cannot diagnose while skill animating), and heads directly to the buffbot in the corner, watching said buffbot while spamming the crowd to get an invite to the buffing grp.
If buff bots cant be eliminated, perhaps the best way to approach this is for buffing to be eliminated altogether. When I first mastered, there were no buffs. The cantinas were full of people as entertainers and less than half were AFK. Game changes have created this imbalance. Who wants to be an entertainer and sit at the KB all night listening to botspam from the bot that's raking in what little healing XP comes along?i.e., you find fewer entertainers and then lista lack of entertainers as why you need to have these bots.
I use recursive macros all the time. This allows me to continue to dance while carrying on several different conversations in tells at once, as well as monitor the group for linkdeads, keep the group waiting list, etc. I rarely leave the KB. I DO get rewarded for this from time to time, since sometimes players come in looking for any entertainer not AFK and tip 50-100K to the first one they find. This is a tough way to make a living. Better than half the players whostand and watch us get healed and dont offer so much as a 'thank you', much less a tip. Though some players don't have the money to tip well, they should be reminded that a 'thank you' is free. If more players insisted upon live entertainers, there would be no bots buffing. Maybe those using the buffbots should be required to listen to their spam all night while they are out kicking some gnort nest. At least they recieved some benefit from the bot....non-afk Entertainers get nothing from them but the spam.
Bottom line is, I can tolerate AFK dancers, tho I do little of it myself. They take nothing from me. In fact they help fill my group and help my n00b dancers get into their elite boxes faster. I hate to see any solution that eliminates recursive macros, since, when used as intended, they are what allows me to do all the things I am expected to do as a group leader or as an entertainer without sacrificing my ability to get the same XP that those around me are getting. Buffbots to me are a different thing. I would gladly give up AFK dance and recursive macros to get them eliminated. In fact, I would gladly give up buffing to get buffbots removed from gameplay. I just hate to throw out the baby with the bathwater when a handful of ppl abuse the system. Particularly if there is another way to fix the prbs. If SOE outlaws buffbots in their terms and conditions and then spot checks now and then, the prb will go away after a few wrists are slapped.
One last point for those who can't seem to find an entertainer when they need one. Ivebeen on sincerollout and tho I have been in a few cantinas that were empty, by andlarge most of them always contain someone....even if they are AFK. You can still get healed from them, and most that are not AFK would be glad to buff you if they have the ability. I think that perhaps most of these players are so tuned toward instant gratification that they assume all are AFK and dont even bother to look. Numerous times I get healed and occasionally tipped by players who thought I was AFK just because I was an entertainer and 'all entertainers are AFK'. They are surprised when I send them a tell thanking them or I speak up in Spatial. AS busy as I am, I always make the effort to respond to all tells, thank all who tip and/or heal me, make conversation with those I recognize as repeat customers (they get top priority), and watch the spatial bubbles in case I'm missing anything else. It's a job..all combat players should have to lvl an entertainer non-AFK as I have done, just to get some idea of waht they are asking of us.
There are a lot of rude entertainers and I lay them out when I find them. Thereare even more rude non-entertainers since most ppl are not entertainers. NotALL of either group are rude and shouldnt be branded as such by either side. Both groups, entertainers and all others, have a need that must be met. Entertainers need XP and reason to be at the keyboard. Combatants need healing and buffing. Sounds like there is some common ground to use for compromise here. Too bad buffbots are eliminating that common ground. It might bethat could provide the basis for a solution to the concerns of both camps.
Vala, 2 time Master Dancer..Wanderhome, Naboo, Stargate
Dreamland
Sat Sep 25, 2004 12:23 am
#306
Arryth wrote:
How are buff bots killing the game Dreamland? Where are your facts or figures? Or are you pulling your opinions out of thin air? The game is dieing you say? Show us?
On a side note. Stop name calling people in this forum.
My facts come from an entire year of playing the game and watching it evolve. If i have to explainfor the hundredth time how buffbots hurt us because you are too lazy to read this entire thread theni'm just wasting my time. The facts are there in the14 pages of this thread.
And if things don't change yes i think this game will die.Come november SWG is not going to be the onlydecent mmog going, theres going to be some other options in WOW and EQ2, so yeah i think the dev team is going to have to step it up a notch if they want to keep the populations up. And just because theres alot of people on bria ahazi and bloodfin, does not mean things are so rosy on other servers. Sunrunner is getting to be a ghost town compared to these others, as are several other servers ive seen people mention.
As to the subject of name calling, if saying isendels a troll is name calling then something is seriously wrong here.Because he is a troll, and i stand by that assesment.
Foot Note: I did not say buffbots were killing the game, What i did say was unatended play is contributing to the death of this game. That encompases the entirety of unatended play from the buffbot to the starport spammer to the afk meatlump killer.
Message Edited by Dreamland on 09-24-2004 12:51 PM
Ppallas
Sat Sep 25, 2004 1:05 am
#307
alright here's my opinion. I've been a dancer almost the entire time i have played. When i first started Entertainer was and and was more of an art to keep conversation going and to makes jokes in the cantina and to have fun. Once holo griding came in that was it. Everyone was afk and some where afk and bot buffs too. I think that entertainers that are non afk get reconized by few. because you have so many people pretending now not to be afk so they can get tips. Personal Opinion Spamming should not be allowed inside cantinas and med centers there is plenty of room outside for that it's hard to see when people say high sometimes because there is just so much spamming from afkers who don't mark it. I'm going to try dunno how yet to put an all non afk ent event on my server. If you guys are worried about bot buffs and non afkers stop talking in just group chat and let people other then dancers know you are alive. People do appreciate the conversations non afkers give. That's the prob you can't get enough non afkers in one spot so that they can enjoy entertaining. I have gotten non spamming groups with a few non afkers in coronet once and you'd be surprised the people that came in. We as entertainers cry because we don't get tipped for dancing but guys a non afk vs afk and buffbots you have to be more. LIke I said people don't greet people coming in a cantina anymore. I try to say high and welcome to everyone i see. I've never had a prob getting tips. i've never had problems with people going to an afk over me or to a buff bot to get a buffs unless i wasn't high enough in skill. The only probs i have with afkers is the constant spamming and tip begging tbh. There is plenty of room outside the cantina for that so they don't get exp but they are still free to dance out in the street and if they really want that afk exp then let them go to the hotelsalmost every major city has one of those lol.
Tiatiana
Tralmek
Sun Sep 26, 2004 9:44 am
#308
Arryth wrote:
How are buff bots killing the game Dreamland? Where are your facts or figures? Or are you pulling your opinions out of thin air? The game is dieing you say? Show us?
Yeah, I don't always agree with Dream's methods, but often the points are valid.
You want an opinion drawn out of thin air? Here area couple of situationsfrom which you'll be able to draw conclusions. Your conclusions will be drawn out of thin air, butchances areyou'll consider them to be valid.
Say you're buffing all stats at 2500 points for 3.5 hours. You're charging 10k.I come by with some buffs and start buffing for 2500 points for 3.5hours. I let your customers know I'm not charging for my buffs. Who do you think will get the most business? Would that be fair to you? What if I didn't do this for just 2 hours a day? What if I did it 23 hours a day 7 days a week? Do you think you could compete?
Different example:
Yourent spacein a vendor mall where you sell buffpacks for 25000 credits each. You sell crates of brandy for 100k. I come along and set up a vendor right next to yours that sells buffpacks of equal quality for 1 credit and my crates of brandy are also equal in quality. I sell those for 1 credit too. Is this fair to you? So you move your vendor...I move my vendors right along with you. Still fair?
Want an expansion on this model?
kay
It's not just me doing this. Suddenly there are people buying second accounts for this purpose. Now there are three Master Doctors in every starport and public med center (npc & player alike)providing buffs equal in quality to yours. Now there are vendors all over the galaxy selling buffpacks and chef food & drink for 1 credit.
More, you ask? Sure. I have more.
You come to the boards and complain about your problem: "I have no source of income because there are folks out there who are providing services identical to mine." "Do something about these guys, get rid of them."
The problem is, you now havea player base that is used to getting free buffs and food whenever it wants them. You have newbies coming in who don't believe you that this isn't how it always was. Lets throw in some Dev indifference too. What if they flat out don't care that your playstyle is being destroyed? What if someone told you to just drop doctor and chef if you weren't happy with them? After all a minority of players really WANT to be Doctors or Chefs. I mean gosh, who wants to sit around crafting or /healenhancing all day? That's got to be boring. Why don't you try picking up a gun and pwning things?
Ok, I've gone long here. Sorry about that. The point is, Arryth, if I can provide the exact same service as you, and I can do it forfree and be around more frequently than you, I can drive you out of business. I can make your life and your chosen professions so miserable you sometimes question choosing them. And when it's not just me doing it, when there are suddenly 3 of us doing this to you everywhere you turn, no matter where you go, you're going to get pretty darn PO'ed.
Drygo
Sun Sep 26, 2004 1:00 pm
#310
Ok, I put in an insanely long shift in the Coronet Cantina today.7 hours. I'm a glutton for punishment, I think. But, I haven't really been able to put in much time at all in this game for nearly two weeks, so I actually had some fun playing for so long. But, while I was there, some things happened...further proof if you will about the damaging nature of buffbots, and how players are conditioned to them.
I logged on about 8 AM this morning. I, of course, was the leader of the group all day long because most people were afk for very long periods of time. Around 8:30 or so, the first few people that wanted buffs started trickling in. As luck would have it, it must have been too early for the buffbot owners to have logged in after server reset. So, it was basically get a buff from me or get no buff.
As most of you know, I don't believe in giving away free buffs. I treat my buffs as services to be sold, just like every other profession has goods or services that they sell. So, since I was running a small group of only 4 entertainers, when people wanted a buff, I politely (always!) let them know that my fee is 5K, and they only needed to /tip me and I'd invite them into the group for a buff. Out of the five people that wanted a buff at 8:30 AM, three of them simply left when I told them my fee. One of them paid, and got invited into the group, got personal service, was thanked, etc. However, the last one decided he was going to be argumentative about it. He said that my payment was free heals from him and experience. I, of course, informed him that I didn't need heals, as I drink accaragm, and I didn't need experience as I am a master. He still insisted I shouldn't be charging for this valuable (my word, not his) service. He might tip me, but he wasn't going to "pay" me. I then informed him that was his choice, but he wasn't going to get a buff from me if that was the case. He insisted I should rely on people tipping after the fact. So, I asked him why an entertainer should rely on tipping, when, for example, doctors, demand and *get* payment up front before every buff. He didn't answer the question. Instead he asked me if I noticed what guild he was in. I said, no. He told me (like I couldn't read the tag). And, I said, that should matter to me, why? Then he just laughed at me and told me I should stop with the attitude or I won't last long on this server. (Ha!) So, of course, I informed him I've lasted for quite some time, so I didn't quite understand what he was getting at. (I assume he meant that he and his guild would "ruin" me or some such nonsense--of course, I don't take threats like that seriously). I told him threats won't get him a buff, but credits would.
By the time this little exchange ended, the buffbots came in, and he got his buff. He then informed me that I lost out on money by asking for payment upfront. Truth be told, I don't really need the money. Drygo has amassed quite a fortune (from TKM). But, that's not really the point. The point is, as I always say, we provide a valuable service, we should be paid just like every other profession. And, while I have enough money to buy a couple of AV-21's at this point, I will always charge for my services because I feel it is a disservice to all the other entertainers who *don't* have the credits that I do. I will *not* undercut them by acting like a buffbot and giving everything away for free.
Of course, during the entire 7 hours I was there, I witnessed *numerous* arguments among people who couldn't get into the buffbot group, numerous people who would swear and get pissed off because the buffbot leader was afk or just left without transferring leadership. All this time, I'm right there, ready, and willing to buff people. But, nobody asks. They'd rather wait around for 30 minutes trying to get into the buffbot group.
There was a doctor that set up buffing right outside the Cantina. He was doing the usual 10K charge for doc buffs. There was a dual music/dance buffbot team set up right inside the Cantina doors. Several people remarked at how wonderful it was to get this one stop buff shopping. When the doctor realized how popular this was, he upped his price to 12K and still had no end of customers. Now, I do *not* begrudge the doctor for realizing his market value and taking advantage of the situation. However, what irks me is that in a situation such as this, another profession (the doctor) reaps the benefits of this setup. While the entertainers? We get the shaft *again* because the buffbots take everything away from us. I'm sure there are a lot of entertainers who would like to partner up with doctors and do this sort of thing from time to time, but we aren't given the opportunity because the buffbots "kill steal" all of our business.
I remember once a friend of mine who happened to be a doctor, suggested that he and I do something similar at the Dantooine Mining Outpost. I told him that while he would make buckets of money, I would make nothing because people would just use the buffbots instead. And, of course, that is exactly what happened. Opportunity "stolen" once again.
I had two "newbie" entertainers who wanted the benefit of my knowledge today. I remember when there were so much more. But, that's not really the point. One of them was totally fresh out of the box, and I enjoyed "teaching" this guy about entertaining. It's one of the most rewarding things for me to do as a dancer. The other one was only interested in learning how to afk. I politely told him I wasn't the best person to ask for that sort of help.
My last "observation" of the day irked me the most, I think. While buffbots are "free," because there is no way to really enforce payment, the truth is, most of them are tipped throughout the day. And, as I've always said, the only way to compete with a buffbot is to be a buffbot. Well, it is humanly impossible for me to play 23 hours a day. (I need to sleep, for one.) And, I refuse to become a buffbot. So, naturally, the buffbots gain the following due to their constant availability, which is why people always run right past me no matter how much I spam that I'm buffing, and just go right to the buffbot. So, what irked me was that one particular patron of the buffbot said in spatial, "I wonder how much money she has now, I know I've tipped her well over 200K just myself."
So...there you go. That's just one person, out of the hundreds of patrons she has a day, every day. Sure, most people don't tip, but many do. Because of her availability, this bot/mule had probably earned millions upon millions of credits...credits that real entertainers usually don't have even a chance of making because they choose to play live, and they don't get the following that the buffbots do.
So, there you have it. Seven hours in the Coronet Cantina, my master title fully displayed, me fully at the keyboard, me making it obvious that I was willing to sell buffs, me being polite and happy and friendly to everyone. Me...selling one buff all day long. Go me!
Shasi
Mon Sep 27, 2004 1:07 pm
#311
OMG I never thought I would get to the end of this post. Whew! 
Ok so here is my 2 cents on the topic:
I have two characters on Valcyn:
1. Master Doc/TKM (used to be a master dancer and i missed it so much that I was torn as to what to do with my character)
2. So along came character number 2 - Master Dancer, Master Entertainer, Master ID (4-0-4-0 Music)
I did this not to have a buff bot actually but to be able to have both player experiences that I would like from the game without having to fight with the endless battle of skill points: "Well if I want that I will have to drop this, or I could drop this to gain that" BAH! 
So I play my 2 characters independently and enjoy the difference in the game when you experience it from the battlefield compared to the Cantinas. I have met so many more people and had so many more great experiences now.
So I play my 2 characters independently and enjoy the difference in the game when you experience it from the battlefield compared to the Cantinas. I have met so many more people and had so many more great experiences now.With my background stated here are my thoughts:
Buff Bots:
I think it is hilarious that players would rather pay and extra $15.00 p/m to create a buff bot character for their main vs. paying 5-10K for a set of mind buffs lol, however I understand their motivation after spending the last week in the Cnet cantina. The reason that so many people have gone to buff bots is because I dont think the entertaining has made it into the player cities enough. For example, inCnet,yes you can always find people entertaining there, but I can count 6 people in the last 5 days of performances in that that were not perma AFK. I constantly watch players come in and spam begging for mind buffs and there were only a few of us to aide them. Maybe if entertainers themselves stopped setting the precedent of AFK performances, buff bots would lose their appeal. Consider this: I can have a entertainer that is AFK grouped with me and can give me a enhancements right in my player city or I can go to Cnet fight the endless lag, because of all the AFK performers that were nice enough to include hey btw please heal and tip me so I can earn something for nothing too!
Come on what do you think people will choose? Entertainers themselves made this bed - they are the only group that instigated the ruish of buff bots and in my opinion. The only way to change the mentality and show the worth of the performing art profession classes is to start actually performing. Entertainers should play this game not just stand there! Go to player cities, meet new people, host events in your cantina's in player cities etc. etc. Get into it! You would be amazed at the great number of people you can meet by doing this! DANCE BABY DANCE! 
Tralmek
Mon Sep 27, 2004 1:55 pm
#312
- We brought up our issues with AFK macrotainers (also known as LAMers back in the day) as early as July 2003. The Devs stood impassively by, doing nothing.
- They Devs introduced professions as the way to open a FSC slot. The LAMer population grew, and themurmoring about the plague of AFK macroing Entertainment professions became a roar. The Devscode inbuffing. ((A process which, by the way, everyone managed to live without up until then. That's right, mind buffs aren't needs, they're wants.)
- The Devs come up with the bright idea of handing out holocrons like candy. Now everyone has a holocron, and eventually a good portion of them come through and AFK macro their way through the Entertainment professions. Outrage from the Entertainmentcommunity is huge at this point, but our pleas land on deaf...err...DEV ears.
- Some enterprising LAMer enters cantina left with the idea of AFK'ing buffs though the further abuse of recursive macros.
This is the day Live Entertaining really took a turn for the worse. Our style of play had been under attack before, but most of us were making it through, assuming there had to be a light at the end of this long dark tunnel. When buffbots started showing up in our cantinas, everywhere, a lot of people felt it was the end of Entertaining. They were making their way through the plague of AFK macrotainers, but when it became obvious that there were ways to AFK macro absolutely everything in the Entertainment professions, a good portion of the Entertainment community had its soul crushed.
Sure, a lot of people left early-on when the AFK macrotainers first showed up in the cantinas, even when the LAMershad the respect to leave themselves in a back corner and not spam. More people left when the cantinas began to fill with AFK macrotainers hologrinding their way to Jedi, but the real exodus of Live Entertainers happened when buffbots started showing up. Now, Live Entertainers are looked down upon as being nothing better than NPC's, because the Entertainment professions are seen as being entirely AFK. There is no respect in most players' minds for Entertainers, because there is no respect for our time or our services because AFK macrobots can perform identical services with no time committment of their own, and they can do it 23/7.
Now, it is apparent that the bottom has just fallen out of rock bottom, because we, the Live Entertainment community have been accused of causing the very horrors we have been fighting for more than a year now. Has the outlook on Entertainers really become so perverted that people actually believe that Live Entertainerscaused the AFK'ers? That WE are responsible for the buffbots and the lag, the plague that is AFK macrotainingand all the other things we have been fighting against? That's sad. No, that's absolutely pitiful.