Dancer Archive

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Hvzeda wrote:

Here is a different approach.

1. What caused this problem of buffbots/afk entertainers to flourish? (no pun intended)

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2. What do we do to remedy this problem so that they are no longer needed?

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Message Edited by Dreamland on 09-15-2004 12:18 PM

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Merc93 wrote:

Recursive Macros are Going Away Pt. 2

"We’ve been reading the previous thread (link back) and all of your feedback. Right off the top, I’d like to say that while this is In Development, it won’t be happening until some time after Publish 10 goes to live servers. We’ll be doing our best to address your concerns and here is where we’re at...

There certainly are pros and cons to removing recursive macros from the game. Generally speaking, the positive side of the argument revolves around promoting a virtual world where players are playing active roles and are encouraged to play "at the keyboard". The negatives are ultimately removing some of the gameplay solutions that players use to enjoy and enhance their game play.

We have chosen to move the game to a state where players actually play the game, not simply run virtual robots by means of macros. At the same time, we want to ensure that we address those valid gameplay areas which are most impacted by the loss of recursive macros. " -Thunderheart

Most of us are sick of the Devs taking away more and more game features, and since the Devs have made up their mind mind, we have made up our mind. Most people I know are quitting this game and cancelling our subscription after this goes into effect. The Devs don't seem to care what we think about this matter, and have decided to eliminate yet another key feature of this game in the interest of extending play time and forcing us to continue to buy subscriptions through cheap tricks rather than keep our interest with great content. I know understand why so many I've talked to that used to play have droppedout of this game, and it's a shame, because I really enjoyed the game's design features. Since most of these features have been eliminated already, this ongoing trend shows no sign of arrest. Understand perfectly well, that you will no longer be able to loop macros for anytthing. we can expect SOE to stand by it's decisions so long as it holds a commercial interest for them, and to back peddle on their promises when they realize players are doing too well against their game. None of us have the hours and weeks and months to push buttons to complete even the most nominal tasks so we'll be quitting. There are other games out there we can spend our money on. I encourage you to take a look at the "In Development" forum and read this thread under the title Recurisve Macros are Going Away, Pt. 2.

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Message Edited by Dreamland on 09-15-2004 05:22 PM

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Merc93 wrote:
Understand perfectly well, that you will no longer be able to loop macros for anytthing.

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Isendel wrote:

I understand english very well thank you Reachwind... So please tone down the personal attacks. Ok? Thanks.

Buff bots are not an exploit, and there is no dev post callign them such. The devs have proposed removing th eability to run them due to a minority out cry, not because its some magicly discovered design flaw. the way they work is very simple and could not have been th eresuly of a bug. They are a legitimate use of an in game macro supplied by the devs. Whats happening here is that the devs are giving ground to the incesent whineing on a few, and may end up doing something that will hurt the game play and enjoyment of the majority. You people attacking owners of afk entertainer and those who choose to enjoy their services, are not the only ones with musicians/dancers, and consequently should not be the sole voice dictating policy on how our class is run. The devs should query all dancer/musician characters before making any kind of change to our fine profession. Further they should be asking the rest of the player base to weigh in. Its very important that a minority group of malcontents not be allowed to harm the game play and dictate the games policy of the majority of players.

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Let me make this clear for those who aren't paying attention. The word "exploit" can have more than one meaning, though they are similar. There is the meaning of using of a game mechanism, possibly intended, but likely not, to gain a substantially unfair advantage in the game or over other players to the point that it threatens game play at some significant level or violates a usage agreement.This is called an "exploit" (noun), and is a more specialized use of the word. The credit duping problem recently would be an example. I don't know the mechanism involved, but it could affect the entire economy of any server where this exploit was used and would allow those who used it to have a tremendous advantage over other players and could potentially affect all players in some way. There has been much discussion in general about buffbots being an exploit, but most of us know by now that the devs have not declared bots to be an exploit. Probably because it does use intended game mechanisms in the general way that they were designed to be used, and they don't actually violate the EULA. While they certainly have harmed many entertainers' gameplay experience, their effects on the game as a whole are arguable. Issues about bots vs. live entertainers aside, in general they don't give any one person or any one group an unfair advantage as all more or less have access to them by their nature (although there is a rather humorous discussion of bot hogs and people trying to control access to "public bots" in the Flurry forum...). There is also the simple fact that even if they did decide that bots were a kind of "exploit", it would probably be nearly impossible to enforce: first they would probably have to modify the EULA to be more prohibitive of AFK play, and second it could be difficult to identify all the exploiters short of having CSR's spend all their time querying people to make sure that someone's there. So, ok, bots are not an "exploit".

That is sort of the game usage of the term, but there is also the general meaning of making use of meanly or unfairly for one's own advantage. It is certainly possible to 'exploit' (verb) a game mechanic without it being an "exploit" in the same way that a cat is an animal, but an animal need not be a cat. It is this latter meaning that I have seen most (or perhaps all) of the anti-AFK posters use in reference to bots, but for some reason, posters like Isendel keep missing the point and switching to the former meaning and thus changing the argument. Either they don't know the difference and need to pay closer attention to what they're replying to, or they are intentionally trying to confuse the issue. If it's the former, then they should try to read the posts more carefully and use context clues or perhaps look at its usage as either a noun or verb form to discern the difference. If it's the latter, then they should know that despite their efforts, it's not working. We still know what they're talking about whether they do or not. I hope that clears things up.

Now as to the argument about the devs taking away an ability based on "the incesent whineing on a few" (sic) or "a minority group of malcontents", this is an incredibly insulting generalization that patronizes those who speak up and presumes that any such claims have little or no merit as well as trivializing the number of those who have experienced problems. I thought you didn't intend to be insulting, Isendel. Even with that, let's just take a look at the validity of your assertion: that the devs are "giving in" to a minority. How often do the devs show their interest in our issues by posting here in our forums? How many or our top issues have the devs addressed since the beginning of the game? How many new songs or dances have been introduced since launch? Do we even have a complete set of existing dance flourishes? Can entertainers self buff as doctors can? Have we received entertainer missions that pay more than about 300 credits for 5 or 10 minutes of performing? With that in mind, given the amount of attention that entertainers have received from the devs thus far, how could you or anyone possibly think they would make such a sweeping change to the entire game based solely on requests to do something about buffbots? Even among those of us who have requested that something be done about buffbots, very few of us have called for an end to repeating macros. Most of us have suggested simply disabling /join or auto-logouts based on inactivity or even interfaces requiring active participation. It's absurd to blame the removal of looping macros on entertainers in general or even a "whining few". In his own words, TH describes a macroable AFK environment as "an environment where players can set up bots, AFK play for their main characters and other sorts of activities that are less than optimally conducive to playing in an online world". Perhaps people like you, Isendel, wish to simply play the blame game and accuse a "whining minority" of causing this change because that's all you can imagine, but there is a larger picture that goes beyond entertainer buffbots to other problems such as AFK spammers, artificially increased server usage and lag, even players leveling their characters and running through content too quickly and easily. There are even other reasons you could name, and the devs and many of us can see them, even if you and others like you can't or won't. I've heard this argument before, and I said the same thing then.

You've also suggested a few times before that the devs should poll users before making changes to the game. That might be a nice idea in theory, but in reality this is a corporate controlled game, not a democracy. The fact is that the game owners and developers are going to make whatever changes they deem fit at any time for any reason. Part of our agreement of even playing the game is acknowledging that the gameplay experience may change over time. They may choose to release a survey to get user opinions on selected issues if they so choose, but they don't have to nor do they even have to make changes to correspond to the popular opinion. They're going to make changes that they feel will make the most sense for the long term health of the game whether that corresponds to "popular opinion" or not. Even so it's not impossible for an intended developer change to get derailed even up to the last minute, as we saw a little while back with, I think it was, the crafting changes, but I think that took a significant outcry from a large portion of the user base as well as some well thought out arguments as to why that would be a bad change. In this particular case I think plenty of people have weighed in their opinions on both sides, and you can pick whichever ones you like. Thus far, in spite of it all the devs don't seem to have changed their mind about the merits of this change. Maybe that's because when it comes down to it, in the end there are more ways for AFK to harm play over all than to help it. As much as you say that we haven't convinced you, Isendel, despite all our efforts, apparently your arguments and others like yours haven't convinced the devs either...

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Isendel wrote:

The things many of you entertainers are advocating will not help you much. It will turn already high degrees of player dislike toword entertainers into outright hatered of the class. You think people dont like us now, wait untill the mind buffs become much more scarce and it becomes harder to get healed....

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I think many of us, by our actions and posts, have decided it's better to be hated and still enjoy the game. But, even if we hadn't, I think we've passed the point of no return. I have had friends, good friends, be pissed off because of all of the master dancers and musicians who don't buff them. Of course, I always offer to buff. I'll usually go to the Cantina in question and check out these master dancers and musicians who refuse to buff. You know who they are 99% of the time? They're afk'ers who keep their title up but are grinding for holocrons, FS experience (now), a badge, or a future buffbot. These aren't the real entertainers. Yet, their choice to keep their master titles up while afk grinding leaves the impression on the other non-entertainers that we are snobs who are unwilling to buff. Even besides these "masters," I've seen non-entertainers complain aboutall the afk entertainers. But, they do so, not with the awareness that these "entertainers" aren't real entertainers, but with the impression that we're all alike. That we're all asses that just leave our computers and spam the Cantina afk with "heal me, tip me's." The unpleasantness of the Cantinas that drove out the live entertainers also leaves the impression that none of us are around. Yet, another reason to hate us.

Message Edited by Drygo on 09-15-2004 09:17 PM

Message Edited by Drygo on 09-15-2004 09:19 PM

Message Edited by Dreamland on 09-16-2004 10:51 AM

Message Edited by Altastar on 09-18-2004 02:34 AM

Message Edited by Altastar on 09-18-2004 02:35 AM

Message Edited by Isendel on 09-18-2004 05:22 PM