Dancer Archive
Thread: Reactions from the other correspondents?
Celedhros wrote:Then, if someone is clearly running an AFK bot, the ban decision is easy, since they have to be using a 3rd party program to do it.
I don't think many people who say this understand just how very, very unlikely that is going to be.
Do you really think they will have the man-power to somehow monitor the behavior subjectively? That you are going to be in a Cantina, suspect someone is macroing, report them, and suddenly CS is going to show up and ban them? We have an almost impossible time now getting CS support in-game for ANY issue - it takes DAYS, if they ever even get to you.
Regardless, let's say they did have unlimited CS to do this. They cannot hack into your PC to see if you are running a 3rd party program, and the only way they can ever accomplish this is by doing what TSO did, which was require you to respond to instant messages from CS if they sent you one to see if you were "alive". It didn't work there, and it won't work here. Unless the program is actually altering the game, it's almost impossible to "prove". I could train my dog to click for me - are they going to require us all to install webcams so they can see that there is actually a person sitting there?
The macro system in SWG is the great equalizer. This change will just force it underground, and those "uber l33t" players that everyone is always complaining about won't skip a single beat. Everyone else like you and me who just used recurisive macros and /ui action toolbar to simply assist when playing the game will be the ones hurting, not them.
AO
AudioOrgana wrote:
However, I think you overestimate the Devs in this instance (do you really think after delaying every revamp/update people have been waiting for since beta they are going to code some brand new system as you describe?), and severely underestimate players (as the SWG Dev team has also known to do from time to time).
Time will tell, that's really all that can be said at this point - I just fear this is another in a long line of things the Dev team has done/is doing that drive more and more people from the game every day.
Now you've gone over to pure nay-saying and speculation. Also, I've never implied that I think that the devs would actually implement my system. All I've done is offer an alternative to what they've suggested that would better address thebehavior they're trying to curb. I dont see how this is a really outlandish suggestion. Most of the needed code is already in place in other systems within the game. They'd just have to modify some of it, addsome functions here and there,and re-combine other pieces of codein new ways. From a programming standpoint It's really not that much of a stretch.
As for the players, I'll reiterate; you dont actually have to make it impossible to afk macro. If you make it difficult enough to do so, though, it will no longer be worth the while of most AFK'ers to continue to do it. Only the really hard-core AFK'ers would be able to get around a randomly spawned dialog window that you have to click on to clear. You certainly couldnt manage it with most (if not all)3rd party mouse-clickers, as you'd have no idea what co-ordinates to send the cursor to. I'm not convinced that you could do so at all without hacking the client directly.
Removing the players ability to loop macros only encourages the use of 3rd party programs to replace lost functionality.
If you dont think this will happen, think again.
Tanks wrote:
I also find it short sighted that you think people using macros areusing them for botting, AFK'ing and unattented play, there are various legitimate uses for macros as pointed out above.This change was a classic case of throwing out the baby with the bath water.
FreaknFarlo wrote:
I have only one comment on this whole thing.
Removing the players ability to loop macros only encourages the use of 3rd party programs to replace lost functionality.
If you dont think this will happen, think again.
And my response every time I hear that is...so what? There are dozens upon dozens of games in existence, some of which do fairly well, some of which do better than SWG. None of them has as strong a macro system as SWG, and even without the loop, SWG will still have one of the strongest, if not THE strongest macro system in existence. Every other game that forbids the use of 3rd party programs is able to actively police them and add new content at the same time. These other games are surviving and thriving. To insinuate that SWG will fall apart because some people might start using 3rd party programs is not based on any kind of fact or examples of previous games. In fact, it shows quite the opposite. That you can have a game without macros nearly as strong as SWG will still have, and still make quite a bit of a profit.
Trayson_Antilles wrote:
It's hard for me to make a clear call on how I feel about it until I actually see it in action. I have a couple of things I do through Macros but nothing so dependent on them that I can't live without them. It's different with me though, because all I have to look at is how they affect me personally. As TC Corr my main goal when this hits TC is to make sure it works as advertised. It's up to everyone else to help mold how it appears when that day happens.
I have to agree with Trayson...
For me, before I can make a clear opinion on this change, I need more details...mainly one specific detail:
Will the /ui action toolbarslot command be altered to just not target macros or will it be removed completely from the game? If it is just being altered, and we can create Long Macros, I'm not sure it has much impact beyond annoyance...if it's being removed, that is where the issues come in and can't be supported by most if not all combat classes as well as crafters and entertainers...
On TC the other day I created a non-looping Dance macro that lasted over an hour...it was mainly one big long copy/paste macro that did not use any toolbar slots except the one I clicked to activate it...It included starts, stops, rest periods, flourishes, dance changes, etc...If I was going to use it post the removal of the the recursive macro abilities, then it would mean that every so often I'd have to come back and restart it...and annoyance, but not gamebreaking to me...
After I made and tested that macro, someone later told me that long macros get truncated down to 35 lines as soon as you log out...I have not logged back into that account to check that but will try to tonight...
So as you can see, at least for me, there is still a lot of testing that needs to be done and a lot more specifics that need to be revealed before I can either support or condemn this proposal...
Message Edited by garvin on 08-03-2004 04:06 PM
NewJedi wrote:
I have played a Musician since beta and launch, and I saw firsthand the demise of the cantina: it was directly correlated with the rise of the macro, especially the looping macro.
- Holocraze - The obvious. This one is a no-brainer to anyone who has ever entertained (and I have mastered Entertainer, Musician, and Dancer at one time or another) : while dancing and music XP are very easy and reliable to gain, it's the healing XP that's the kicker - you can only get it when you are directly healing another players BF. This led to the abandonment of the cantinas in the secondary cities, like Moeina, Tyrena, and Mos Entha/Espa. While occasionally you would find someone there, but it's the exception, not the rule. People flocked to where the most players were, and the most entertainers to group with to get the most XP - because, as we know, the path of least resistance is the one the vast majority of people are going to take. Thus Theed and Cantina became the Entertainment capitals of the Galaxy. Until you figure in...
- "Adventure" Planets - I don't know what we are calling them these days (Adventure Planets, Secondary Planets, Advanced Planets), but Dathomir, Endor, and Yavin IV were once places that only large groups of heavy combat players would even dare set 10 meters outside of the Starport. Back when hunting was fun, before we could all go out and solo the virtually every MOB in the game.Back when took you ten minutes to take down aGurreck with a group of masters. That began to change once the culture of the buff began- people started spreading out, and for a time, these secondary locations became galaxy hotspots - say, like Dathomir. Anyone rebember the great Baz Nitch exploit scandale (sic.)? Wasn't hard to find an entertainer there, when people were making millions of credits a night for the first time outside of the weaponsmith profession (armor hadn't totally caught on yet), and giving those entertainers who ventured out to Dath 10K tips when they were used to more like 10 creds on the "starter" planets of Tattoine, Naboo, and Corellia. To make a long story short (too late...), these hotspots developed in other places as people caught on to the highest paying planet/mission/exploit (in the case of the 'nitches)combination of the moment quickly spread to the planet of the week. Some of us were starting to speculate that there was some sort of post-beta beta testing going on, i.e. the Devs made a certain mission on a certain planet most attractive to players in order to fully test the planet/server/spawning/what-have-you they wanted us to, rinse, repeat. However, we didn't have time to think about that, because right around the corner were...
- Player Cities and Vehicles -Before player citiesthere were only NPC cantinas, which meant there were many less Cantinas per planet in NPC cities, and once people moved out to a player city the minor cities (again, the Moeina's and Tyrena's of the Galaxy) died because we now had Vehicles and Shuttleports in Player Cities which meant that a place like Mos Entha was a pit-stop where you rarely saw the outside of a Starport, let alone the inside of a Cantina because in a minute or two you could be in your friend's custom furnished Player City Cantina.
All of these things led to the downfall of the Cantina experience in SWG. Some Cantina's suffered from majorover-population and some severe underpopulation (i.e. population 0), and this coupled with the availability of dozens more Cantinas per server in Player Cities and the hologrind which was artifically inflating the numbers grinding the profession just ruined what used to be, which was a fun experience for even those players like myself who aren't overly fond of chatting and socializing in SWG.
To blame it simply on looping macros is incredibly naive, or incredibly biased. I personally do not believe this will be the panacea that some in your profession are gloating it to be, but no matter what your opinion on the subject ignoring all the other factors in this issue is not going to help anyones cause.
There are this many complexities to all of these issues, this is but one. Even within this issue, there are other factors - like the fact that only 1 out of 5 players who bought SWG play every day (500K+ copies sold, 100K playing daily, divided by how many servers now?).
It's fine if you don't like looping macros, but let's talk about the real reasons why you support their removal, not rhetoric that makes me feel like I'm reading transcripts from a political convention.
AO
I've read Tiaga's views on this stuff... I agree that if we're getting nothing else, this is the least they can do, althought limiting how long a macro can run would probably be a better solution.
now, I'm extremely sensitive to threads with the word "correspondent" in it, in a slightly negative way... my forum can probably tell you that. *shrug*
