Dancer Archive

Thread: Reactions from the other correspondents?

JEST3R
Tue Aug 03, 2004 5:51 pm
#27

My view?


well personally I think the recursive macro change is an effort in futility that will ultimately do nothing but drive bots underground.


I mean if a person is willing to use a 3rd party app, and use a limited team entry list in a private house, they could have the very same buff bot in there all day long and virtually undetectable. People will seek out these "speak easy" type bot establishments as STILL being more convient then searching for atk players.


Casual players will be hurt most during off peek play due to reduced presence. AFK bots filled that void nicely.


Now I KNOW afk play is a huge issue for the entertainer oriented professions... Panthu Taigia NewJedi do a wonderful job communicating thier respective professions desires and concerns.


But just like I posted on the Correspondent forums, the change is fairly futile and will only possible harm legitamate macro uses, I detailed a few on the correspondent forums, I voiced my concern that since looping is the key issue behind bots I fear over reaction and removal of all commands which can be used to loop. Now we have not yet been told if that will happen or not, but one of the most widely used loop commands is the /ui action toolbarSlot command and if it is removed rather then adjusted, an entire level of advanced game play for combat types and especially PvP players will have been sacrificed in this anti AFK bot effort. And that is something I have great concerns about.


So now you know my fears to the changes, as to what to do to fix it then? Well my thoughts are in opposit9ion to the devs current plan, rather then forcing player interaction and triying to eliminate the AFK bots, they should instead Focus thier efforts so that I would be encouraged to seek At the Keys players over the afk players.


I had discussed a few things with Panthu and others about that more specifically and since its outside of my realm I leave it to them to handle thier issues, they need no help from me.


Basically though Docs have the exact same situation as Ents almost in that thier services are AFK macroable. but Docs are not affected as severely as the entertainers... and the reason for this is that even though I waste more time, and spend more credits, visiting and getting buffed by an at the keys master doc is better then what I get at the local afk buff bot doc (who cannot eat bivoli routinely and regularly.)


Basically the devs need to take a page from that.... Interacting with an at the keys ent should be the more benificial, effecient way of getting wounds/BF healed and getting buffs. They should be encouraging us to seek out those actively playing over those who are afk.


Instead all thats being done is a half hearted attaempt to do away with AFK bots, which will not get rid of them, it will hurt those during off peek times, it will possibly harm a great amount of spatial command functionality..... and the net gain is not a more fun and engaging dancer profession, infact nothing changes except instead of checking a cantina in coronet I visit the known PA buff bot house 600 meters outside Coronet. And I do it because I get the same service and definately get buffs and I do not waste time looking for services when I have a given and known location for what I want.


JEST3R




ggggg4 Kurzzun Starfire Bounty Hunter
ggggg4 JEST3R Retired GCW Correspondent



(gnn[[[[[[[[[[nnnnWX9ggggggggggggggggggggg)


Groovymarlin
Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:16 pm
#28

Thanks so much to all the correspondents who took the time to post here. I was interested in your opinions because I think you're the ones the devs listen to most out of all the players.


It's a complicated issue. Personally I would also be happy if they just disabled all macros while AFK , and removed the ability to disable auto-AFK. Why they aren't doing it that way I don't know, but they must have reasons.


I was disappointed in Tanks's reply. Tanks I have the utmost respect for you. My alt is a bounty hunter, and I heard some of the things you said to the devs at FanFest. I thought it was great - you really lay it on the line, you're intelligent, you're articulate, and you have great common sense. So I was disappointed to see you only talking about this in terms of entertainers. Wouldn't you agree that there are non-entertainer uses of AFK macroing and even non-AFK macroing (looping) that the devs are unhappy with, and are trying to address? As Kstarfire said, it's really not because of any one profession.


I guess I am hoping we can avoid the anti-entertainer backlash. And that's why we need a dev to make some further statement absolving us of blame. Because honestly, who REALLY thinks that after months of inattention they're going to make a sweeping change like this just becuase of US?



La'lepa Ofo

Master Dancer :: Master Swordswoman :: Force Sensitive
AFKing is not entertaining - support real entertainers

Groovymarlin
Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:40 pm
#29






HalasterTheBlack wrote:


Maybe you should considerchanging your behavior if you want to change how you're perceived.





Yes, I remember you. You're the one who says that entertainers are all played by "ugly housewifes having web secks" and "trying to ruin [your] game." Pardon me if I'm less than impressed by any opinion of yours.


However, you're welcome to your opinion. As are the entertainers. The fact is, yes, many of us support this concept. We're allowed to do that if we wish. I play a combat profession on my main character also, and frankly I don't see any way that removing looping macros is going to hurt her in any way that I can't easily work around. I have an alt who is all combat, and she won't be negatively affected either.


That is MY experience, and how I will be affected. That's all that TH asked for in his original "In Development" post. That's really all I asked for when I asked how the other correspondents feel about this change. Maybe you should focus on providing examples of how you'll be affected, and constructive suggestions, instead of throwing immature, ridiculous insults at three entire professions and the real people (of all sexes, ages, and situations) who play them.





La'lepa Ofo

Master Dancer :: Master Swordswoman :: Force Sensitive
AFKing is not entertaining - support real entertainers

lifelessdroid
Tue Aug 03, 2004 7:10 pm
#30

there is already a system in game that supports this. There is a mechanic that set you to afk even if you are macroing. The only way to break it is to use the keyboard/mouse. There is a check box to turn this off. I think an easier solution would be to remove the box and instead change /afk to /quit when you time out. I am sensing a hotfix when this backfires, and you know that hotfixes generally give up the bugs that last for the next couple months until it becomes a 'feature' of a new patch.



Combat Rating:***
Kalona Armain(a super dancer droid) looks like
instant death

SmedleyLlama
Tue Aug 03, 2004 7:18 pm
#31






NJ62 wrote:

3) No entertainers at off-peak hours? Well if you need a medic off-peak you're also out of luck. If you have to find a live medic to heal your wounds, you should have to find a live entertainer to heal your BF/mind. Why a double-standard?







No double standard. Any scout (and just about every combat profession has some for mask scent and terrain negotiation) can pitch a tent and wait out the healing process for everything but BF. BF is the exception to this rule.

Nacoa
Tue Aug 03, 2004 10:39 pm
#32



AudioOrgana wrote:


Nacoa wrote:


AudioOrgana wrote: Everyone else like you and me who just used recurisive macros and /ui action toolbar to simply assist when playing the game will be the ones hurting, not them.


You're assuming /ui action toolbarSlot will be removed. That isn't necessarily the case to stop recursive macros. /ui action toolbarSlot could add a check to see if the target slot contains a macro. If so, don't run it.




I have a hard time believing they'd do that (since it would require code time, which as we are all very, very well aware is at a premium right now), but regardless, that doesn't change the fact that this will not hurt the people it's meant to, only everyone else.

AO




Um....any change requires "code time". Blanket removal of /macro and /ui action toolbarSlot requires code changes just like adding a check on /ui action toolbarSlot.





I'm baaaaaack
And it looks like I'll be going again.

Nacoa
Tue Aug 03, 2004 10:59 pm
#33


lifelessdroid wrote:
there is already a system in game that supports this. There is a mechanic that set you to afk even if you are macroing. The only way to break it is to use the keyboard/mouse. There is a check box to turn this off. I think an easier solution would be to remove the box and instead change /afk to /quit when you time out. I am sensing a hotfix when this backfires, and you know that hotfixes generally give up the bugs that last for the next couple months until it becomes a 'feature' of a new patch.



No, you don't auto-afk if your toon is doing something. Try this:
[macro named blinker]
/blink
/pause 300
/macro blinker

You won't auto-afk, and you won't auto-logout. From this (and a few other things), I gather that the auto-afk and auto-logout is controlled by the server, and the macro engine is on the client. The server continues to see a stream of commands coming in, so you don't auto-afk and don't auto-logout.

[disclaimer: I tested this auto-afk thing a long time ago. Since then, I haven't tried it so it may be different now]

Message Edited by Nacoa on 08-04-2004 02:01 AM





I'm baaaaaack
And it looks like I'll be going again.

Taewyn
Tue Aug 03, 2004 11:27 pm
#34


the total players who play elite level entertainers were 1.68% of our population.

Now...this was when the population was still at it's all time high. (i'm sure its dropped since then....)

I think it is absolutely irresponsible of SOE to force this change to accomodate such a small population...

(quote from Hawkbat)


Sorry to keep trolling here, but I need to say something to this post....


By your logic.....Armor smith, Droid egineer, Swordsmen, Squad leader, Fencer, Chef and Pikemen should not have had any changes, because their population is so low... (lower then dancer was in oct)


Armor smith had multiple patches, both lowering the enc of composite and "adding" special resists too base, rather then making new ones...Both changes had game sweeping consequences.....


Swordsmen/Pikemen/fencer....Had multiple defense changes, these changes are one of the reasons why melee and PvE is so unbalanced....By your logic, because these classes combined barely equaled the number of dancers, they should have gotten no attention.....(did not hear *anyone* use this argument then)


Chef...The second lowest populated class....Got a complete patch dedicated too it...This patch had game wide implications that altered game play for *every* class....But, according to your logic, they deserved nothing, right?


Droid egineer...Yet another class that had a lower population then *just dancer*....Yet two full publishes were put forward for this profession...I guess they deserved nothing as well?


This is the best part.....


Total entertainer population (3 classes)=1.99% Total melee population (without TKA, 3 main melee classes)=1.21%


Now, I want you to tell me, since oct, who has gotten more changes, upgrades and system wide alterations since launch? According to *your* warped version of logic, the entertainers should have gotten the lions share, because they have a bigger population....Well, they did not...


I would say, most of the problems in PvE and PvP combat, sans dots, are because of melee stacking....System wide changes, such as defense, CoB, 12 meter range increase and over-all melee preformace has unbalanced so many systems its pathetic...


So no, your logic is assanine to say the least...Anyone who *really* looks at the numbers knows your warping them to try and fit your incredibly dumb argument.....





Taewyn Alsan Lt Colonel in service of the Empire


Taewyn and Oqua's "As you like it" Armor and Clothing store. On Naboo, right outside of Kaadara Location: +5729 +6376.


Wacoede
Tue Aug 03, 2004 11:27 pm
#35

i have posted on this idea in the 'In Development' forums again removal of the auto-AFK toggle switch would help also i think there is a way for the game to different(sp) between typed commands and macro'd commands, i know people that still get booted from the game if they use the old sit/stand macro while having the box checked so would it not be easier to REMOVE some code than to have toADD some


(E.G.make it so macros cant activate another macro)


this would cut the AFK'ing with one small change then when more dev time becomes available then maybe work out a slightly better system, there are many good ideas posted here and in the 'In Development' thread



Wacoede Peceukk
A
llied Combat Team
J
edi / Alliance Ace Pilot
(gggggggggggggggW[[[z[[gzg]]z]]]Xggggggggggggggg)
Panthu
Tue Aug 03, 2004 11:30 pm
#36






Taewyn wrote:


Sorry to keep trolling here, but I need to say something to this post....




It's ok Tae, I think everybody who was going to drop by from the Corre forum has.


... plus, you're right.


/whisper Say hi to the wife for me!




P A N T H U Y GlitterUsagi
M i n d B o d y S p i r i t
Dancer ImageDesigner Doc

hawkbatleader1
Tue Aug 03, 2004 11:44 pm
#37






Taewyn wrote:




So no, your logic is assanine to say the least...Anyone who *really* looks at the numbers knows your warping them to try and fit your incredibly dumb argument.....






Not gonna requote everything...you are missing a major point. The other classes who got reworked, from melee, to armorsmith, to chef.. had their class reworked to make it functional.


What is happening with the removal of the recursive macro has NOTHING to do with the rework of a classes abilities, function, or design.


It is the change to a game system that ALL classes have access to.


I have never been one to bad mouth entertainers...it's your class, play it how you will. I've done master ENT, Dancer and Musician...and the grinds are a bear...I afk'd while at work, and spent on average 6 hours per evening at my keyboard...dancing, buffing, and playing a fizzz.


With the exception of a few broken flourishes and animations....the classes (Entertainer, Dancer and Musician)work. NOTHING game breaking here... Nothing that is NON-FUNCTIONAL similar to the problems with the other classes that have since been retooled and now function beautifully.



You have succeeded in causing game effecting changes....that will harm the gameplay of a much larger player base than the combined entertainer population.


The repurcussions will be widespread, and negative. I Hope you people have thick skin (but you don't from my previous experiences...and MANY forum threads...) because Dancers, Entertainers, and Musicians will take the brunt of this hostility....



and your correspondants are responsible for letting such an irresponsible change be ENCOURAGED....





The dev team would never allow any kind of imbalance so that one group of people would "cut swaths" through crowds of people.

Thunderheart - 6/17/04
Celedhros
Wed Aug 04, 2004 12:05 am
#38







AudioOrgana wrote:

I could train my dog to click for me - are they going to require us all to install webcams so they can see that there is actually a person sitting there?



Both of which are completely ridiculous assertions. Besides that, you're undoubtedly correct. They will not catch all of the afk macroers. If and when they do catch one, they may not be able to ban one, and the CSRs do, assuredly, have many other things to deal with. There does become a point, however, where the trouble involved with setting up and running an AFK macro outweighs the benefit the "player" receives from doing so.


Heck, give the CSRs the ability to spawn a dialog on your client if they suspect that you areAFK that requires you to click a ui button within 5 minutes, or it automatically sets you to afk status, thereby dumping your macros and starting the countdown to log you out. Have it spawn at a random location on the screen (rather than at a consistent location like all the other windows) and you've pretty much nailed even themost common and most easy to use3rd party programs. Even better, it requires very little muss or fuss on the part of the CSRs. They dont even have to talk to you and wait for a response. If you're there, it's a minor inconvenience. Practically by the time you could even react to it and click on it, the CSR could have moved on to the next ticket.





Kan-Tor Bayle
Master ShipWright • BayleTech Systems
Shadows of Alderaan | Lok | Bloodfin

Beauty is only toon deep. - me
Nacoa
Wed Aug 04, 2004 12:07 am
#39



AudioOrgana wrote: Everyone else like you and me who just used recurisive macros and /ui action toolbar to simply assist when playing the game will be the ones hurting, not them.


You're assuming /ui action toolbarSlot will be removed. That isn't necessarily the case to stop recursive macros. /ui action toolbarSlot could add a check to see if the target slot contains a macro. If so, don't run it.





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And it looks like I'll be going again.

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