Dancer Archive
Thread: Inspirations and Bots: Time Investment
FuschiaD
Tue Apr 05, 2005 4:38 am
#15
I'm sorry Pan, but I 100% disagree that if this gets implemented as planned, there will be any reason whatsoever to be a master. I find it grossly unfair that novice entertainers will be able to do the EXACT same thing we can do - it just takes a little longer. I've posted this in another thread, but it bears repeating:
Should novice marksmen be able to solo rancors, as long as it just takes them a little longer?
Should novice artisans be able to make grand ballgowns and great weapons, as long as it just takes them a little longer?
Should novice medics be able to revive players and make advanced meds, as long as it just takes a little longer?
We have zero real incentive to master under this design. Why bother, when I can do the exact same thing as a novice entertainer? Buffing in one minute versus six isn't enough. It just means there'll be that many more people copping a free buff from me.
As for the popups... I'm completely open to other ideas, up to and including the cantina manager. We need something that allows us to make money and give us an advantage over the bots. I want those to go away.
kirah_ashlin
Tue Apr 05, 2005 4:46 am
#16
Kirahdoesn't have any skill tapes and has no desire tospend half her lifesavings to get one. Shianne was given a +5 leo from a dear friend and has a couple +1 items, but that is not the outfit she wants to dance in all the time just to attract customers to her. Dancers and musicians shouldn't be forced to look like defective rainbow trout all the time just so others can benefit from something the entertainerhas nocontrol over. As a Master Dancer, Kirah doesn't benefit from the patron watching her for the inspiration buff unless they tip her.
I don't want pop-up windows. Didn't like them before and don't like them now - don't forget how they can be used to grief us, btw. I want to play this game as a dancer who . . . dances - not as a mechanic of the game who has to punch buttons every few seconds. I do want /setp or a similar commandto remain in the game, though.
However, despite my not liking pop-up windows, I don't recall us ever being told by a dev that they were even considering that as a option at any point in the nearlyyear and a half that I've been active on this forum. I remember it being brought up, but not as a design that the devs were considering, rather as a possible "suggestion" to the devs. Was that one of those things we weren't told before or I am a complete dunce?
Petronela
Tue Apr 05, 2005 5:16 am
#17
As a Master Dancer, Musician and Entertainer with very little skill tapes I guess it would put me somewhere in the middle in between Novice Entertainer and someone decked out with the best of the best skill tapes. In my opinion it would make me unacceptably gimped. I don't like it one bit.
Plus the point of having to wear the same outfit day in day out (as many pointed out) is not good also.
The Cantina Manager idea: I guess I could live with it, but don't really care for it much. Mainly because it would make me feel like a trained money performing flourish on demand and also there are certain flourishes with certain dances I never do and wont do. If an NPC asks me for a /flo 5 while dancing Footloose or any of the jiggle /flos while dancing Exotic I guess I would just have to pretend to be AFK or /slap them. 
Deli'ah
Coreena
Tue Apr 05, 2005 5:42 am
#18
I don't like the popup idea. That would be very annoying. The ID interface Idea would be terrible sorry, I want to dance mainly and talk and not stare at an interface taking up half the screen.
But once someone watches me/listens to me, a new option on the Radial menu could be available. "Apply Enhancement" or so.
After that it works exactly as planned now, I hate this "spam flourish" buffing as it is now.
They just have to make sure, that there is NO way to open and select Radial Menu options from a macro automatically.
But this way I have the control over who I buff and who not. Its no bulky interface
Also I think its terribly unfair that Novice Entertainers can do the same buff we can. Ok, let them apply buffs, but make them weaker. Or give buffing to Novice Dancer/Musician and Master Entertainers. But still Masters should buff higher than Novice. Does not have to be as much difference as it is now, perhaps Novice buffs 50% as does a Master Entertainer, a Master Dancer buffs 100%.
The analogies to weaponsmiths someone had were perfect examples i think
But once someone watches me/listens to me, a new option on the Radial menu could be available. "Apply Enhancement" or so.
After that it works exactly as planned now, I hate this "spam flourish" buffing as it is now.
They just have to make sure, that there is NO way to open and select Radial Menu options from a macro automatically.
But this way I have the control over who I buff and who not. Its no bulky interface
Also I think its terribly unfair that Novice Entertainers can do the same buff we can. Ok, let them apply buffs, but make them weaker. Or give buffing to Novice Dancer/Musician and Master Entertainers. But still Masters should buff higher than Novice. Does not have to be as much difference as it is now, perhaps Novice buffs 50% as does a Master Entertainer, a Master Dancer buffs 100%.
The analogies to weaponsmiths someone had were perfect examples i think
Esharra
Tue Apr 05, 2005 5:44 am
#19
Caerwynn wrote:
As I posted in the related thread by Esharra, with these passive buffs as they currently stand, we won't know when we are buffing someone and in order to provide +25% buffs we shall have to wear our enhance leotards/outfits all the time.
I certainly don't want to wear the same outfit day after day and with the current Ent's income can't afford to buy several enhanced outfits. Afer the CU I wll have even less of an income to do so.
However, the general concept of inspirational buffsis good and we should see far more people visiting the cantinas.
I think that if someone wants a +25% buff from me (I've got +25 in music but only +8 in dance), they're going to have to pay me to put the silly suit on. And yeah..we're talking belt, bandolier, gloves, leotard..it's ugly. But they've been paying me very well to dress badly..if they want the benefits, they'll continue to do so.
(getting ready for work & I Always hit the snooze button too many times..I'll have more to say later, I'm sure)
LyteFoot
Tue Apr 05, 2005 5:46 am
#20
I asked this on another thread and I'll ask it here. Why is it that every other profession in the game has a mechanic to require payment before rendering services and we don't? There are two purposes to the support professions, to foster interaction and interdependency and as money dispersal mechanisms. Why are we out of the dispersal chain?
The game income is supposed to come in via missions and flow out to the rest of the players via purchases and trades. Mr Combat kills nests, makes magic money, and buys weapons. Mr Armorsmith buys resources, pays merchants, and sells weapons. Mr Harvester buys equipment, locates resources, and sells resources.
Why are we out of this loop? Why do the devs feel that because we are "social" we don't want enough game credits to buy items? In fact why do they think we don't even need to make enough credits to shuttle between planets?
Give me legitimate answers to those questions about basic game play requirements and I'll follow the devs. Until they can convince me that "social" people are so different that they don't expect to receive any of the content they are paying for I will continue to request we be kept in the economic cycle. I don't want a manager paying me minimal game credits while my services are freely available to all the combat players and artisans who can make large fortunes through the normal economy of the game.
The game income is supposed to come in via missions and flow out to the rest of the players via purchases and trades. Mr Combat kills nests, makes magic money, and buys weapons. Mr Armorsmith buys resources, pays merchants, and sells weapons. Mr Harvester buys equipment, locates resources, and sells resources.
Why are we out of this loop? Why do the devs feel that because we are "social" we don't want enough game credits to buy items? In fact why do they think we don't even need to make enough credits to shuttle between planets?
Give me legitimate answers to those questions about basic game play requirements and I'll follow the devs. Until they can convince me that "social" people are so different that they don't expect to receive any of the content they are paying for I will continue to request we be kept in the economic cycle. I don't want a manager paying me minimal game credits while my services are freely available to all the combat players and artisans who can make large fortunes through the normal economy of the game.
FuschiaD
Tue Apr 05, 2005 6:13 am
#21
Coreena wrote:
But once someone watches me/listens to me, a new option on the Radial menu could be available. "Apply Enhancement" or so.
This is an EXCELLENT idea! The best I've seen so far. It allows us to heal without buffing, to buff while ensuring we get paid for our time, and would allow us to buff whoever watches us, if we so choose. It will also control the buffbotting.
I love this! Coreena, you REALLY need to post this on the concept thread. A red name needs to read this.
AllyaEcati
Tue Apr 05, 2005 6:35 am
#22
LyteFoot wrote:
I asked this on another thread and I'll ask it here. Why is it that every other profession in the game has a mechanic to require payment before rendering services and we don't? There are two purposes to the support professions, to foster interaction and interdependency and as money dispersal mechanisms. Why are we out of the dispersal chain?
The game income is supposed to come in via missions and flow out to the rest of the players via purchases and trades. Mr Combat kills nests, makes magic money, and buys weapons. Mr Armorsmith buys resources, pays merchants, and sells weapons. Mr Harvester buys equipment, locates resources, and sells resources.
Why are we out of this loop? Why do the devs feel that because we are "social" we don't want enough game credits to buy items? In fact why do they think we don't even need to make enough credits to shuttle between planets?
Give me legitimate answers to those questions about basic game play requirements and I'll follow the devs. Until they can convince me that "social" people are so different that they don't expect to receive any of the content they are paying for I will continue to request we be kept in the economic cycle. I don't want a manager paying me minimal game credits while my services are freely available to all the combat players and artisans who can make large fortunes through the normal economy of the game.
/agree
It's bad enough that bf and wound healing were attainable by watching any entertainer and now buffing, the one aspect of healing that entertainers had control of, is being changed. This is probably great in terms ofuse and ease for players and may get rid of some bots, but that doesn't mean the bot attitude will go away. I highly doubt many players will even see the need to tip an entertainer. It's not like we can even tell who's watching us and leaves without tipping! Maybe I don't want to buff20 rebels that walkin the cantina that I know are on a fp mission so they can build a large base complex. Am I going to have to hit /denyservice on the off chance they may try to watch me? Will I be forced to change my cantina to a strict Imperial onlycity?Will I be able to buff myself and make use ofmy own skills? My guess is probably not.
Petronela
Tue Apr 05, 2005 6:37 am
#23
Coreena wrote:
But once someone watches me/listens to me, a new option on the Radial menu could be available. "Apply Enhancement" or so.
Yes! I do really like this idea. Blonde-proof and simple.
Best of Both Worlds. We know they know, they know we know and we have a choice......
Deli'ah
Else-Whira
Tue Apr 05, 2005 6:42 am
#24
There are two directions we can go with dancer (and musician).
Passive:
Make everything passive. Buffs and healing. Players target us and are healed or buffed. This is the system in concept right now. In this system they would have to change our experience and our pay to a system where we are not held hostage by the good will of other players. It turns us into a beggar class. Instead we should get all of our experience from flourishes and all of our pay from the cantina that we choose to work in via a mission system. This system should base our pay on our entertainer skills. AFK play would be possible but these characters would never see a credit.
Active:
Make everything active. Buffs and healing. We target the player we want to heal or buff and execute some kind of healing/buffing effect to them via a /command or set of actions. In this system a player would need to pay us for a service we are granting them unless we choose to give them this service for free. AFK play would be possible unless the actions required were in a complex enough form that a third party macro was required.
Personally I choose the passive option. They just can not expect us to be a passive form without making our pay something we get from the game system and based off of our skill. A novice should make less than a master and a master should be able to to earn an income equal to any other master level elite profession.
Passive:
Make everything passive. Buffs and healing. Players target us and are healed or buffed. This is the system in concept right now. In this system they would have to change our experience and our pay to a system where we are not held hostage by the good will of other players. It turns us into a beggar class. Instead we should get all of our experience from flourishes and all of our pay from the cantina that we choose to work in via a mission system. This system should base our pay on our entertainer skills. AFK play would be possible but these characters would never see a credit.
Active:
Make everything active. Buffs and healing. We target the player we want to heal or buff and execute some kind of healing/buffing effect to them via a /command or set of actions. In this system a player would need to pay us for a service we are granting them unless we choose to give them this service for free. AFK play would be possible unless the actions required were in a complex enough form that a third party macro was required.
Personally I choose the passive option. They just can not expect us to be a passive form without making our pay something we get from the game system and based off of our skill. A novice should make less than a master and a master should be able to to earn an income equal to any other master level elite profession.
Chessack
Tue Apr 05, 2005 8:24 am
#25
Hmm... I have been thinking about this a bit.
One thing people seem split on is passive/active.
Another thing is that the difference between a novice entertainer and a full master is time... and nothing else. And the time differential is not all that big, as I understand it -- 5 or 10 minutes vs. 1 minute. That means in terms of skill boxes, you aren't getting much of an increase per box.
I have a solution that may fix this problem AND solve the "empty skill branch" problem in the elite trees.
Have TECHINQUES lines reduce the amount of time it takes. Ents do not get tech, so keep it at 5 minutes through the base prof. Give novice dancers/musicians -30 seconds, then -30 seconds buff time per box you go up. You are getting faster with the techniques, all fine.
Then have the entertainer healing boxes and the formerly mind wound healing boxes give you something else -- buff variety. You'd need 6 buffs for entertainer (1 at novice, 4 for the boxes, and 1 special one at master), and you'd then need maybe 6 for dancer/musician (1 at novice, 1 for each box, and 1 special one at master). So for example:
Novice entertainer -- buffs base artisan experimentation
Ent Heal 1 - buffs medical crafting
Ent Heal 2 - buffs (general) combat xp
Ent Heal 3 - buffs medical healing
Ent Heal 4 - buffs harvesting (or scouting xp perhaps)
Master Ent - buffs survival xp
(Notice, Ents are buffing the base profs because they are a base prof.)
Novice Dancer/Musician - Buffs faction points
Dance/Music Enhancements 1 - buffs melee combat xp types (fencer, unarmed, etc).
Dance/Music Enhancements 2 - buffs ranged combat xp types
Dance/Music Enhancements 3 - buffs medical xp types (BE, Doc, CM)
Dance/Music Enhancements 4 - buffs elite crafting experimentation types (architect, chef, etc)
Master Dance/Music - buffs DNA sampling, crafting XP gain, etc.
Now we have our skill line back, it is useful, and a master is able to give all the possible buffs. A lower character can give a perfectly fine buff in the areas they are trained in, but not in the areas they aren't.
By the end you will have us able to buff and be useful to every profession, and this also fixes the problem of the missing skill line -- it adds content (technique remains as it has been the line concerned with the time of the buff) and this one gives us new things to buff each time we level.
I think this or something like it would work and would alleviate the "a novice is as good as I am, only slower" problem.
C
One thing people seem split on is passive/active.
Another thing is that the difference between a novice entertainer and a full master is time... and nothing else. And the time differential is not all that big, as I understand it -- 5 or 10 minutes vs. 1 minute. That means in terms of skill boxes, you aren't getting much of an increase per box.
I have a solution that may fix this problem AND solve the "empty skill branch" problem in the elite trees.
Have TECHINQUES lines reduce the amount of time it takes. Ents do not get tech, so keep it at 5 minutes through the base prof. Give novice dancers/musicians -30 seconds, then -30 seconds buff time per box you go up. You are getting faster with the techniques, all fine.
Then have the entertainer healing boxes and the formerly mind wound healing boxes give you something else -- buff variety. You'd need 6 buffs for entertainer (1 at novice, 4 for the boxes, and 1 special one at master), and you'd then need maybe 6 for dancer/musician (1 at novice, 1 for each box, and 1 special one at master). So for example:
Novice entertainer -- buffs base artisan experimentation
Ent Heal 1 - buffs medical crafting
Ent Heal 2 - buffs (general) combat xp
Ent Heal 3 - buffs medical healing
Ent Heal 4 - buffs harvesting (or scouting xp perhaps)
Master Ent - buffs survival xp
(Notice, Ents are buffing the base profs because they are a base prof.)
Novice Dancer/Musician - Buffs faction points
Dance/Music Enhancements 1 - buffs melee combat xp types (fencer, unarmed, etc).
Dance/Music Enhancements 2 - buffs ranged combat xp types
Dance/Music Enhancements 3 - buffs medical xp types (BE, Doc, CM)
Dance/Music Enhancements 4 - buffs elite crafting experimentation types (architect, chef, etc)
Master Dance/Music - buffs DNA sampling, crafting XP gain, etc.
Now we have our skill line back, it is useful, and a master is able to give all the possible buffs. A lower character can give a perfectly fine buff in the areas they are trained in, but not in the areas they aren't.
By the end you will have us able to buff and be useful to every profession, and this also fixes the problem of the missing skill line -- it adds content (technique remains as it has been the line concerned with the time of the buff) and this one gives us new things to buff each time we level.
I think this or something like it would work and would alleviate the "a novice is as good as I am, only slower" problem.
C