Dancer Archive
Thread: Inspirations and Bots: Time Investment
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DanceRulez
Tue Apr 05, 2005 1:34 am
#1
OK, but the problem I see is this - those +25 Dance/Music bots are probably still going to be there. Why? Because they're already set up, and because they can, and maybe even because they've established a 'tradition' of being there. And that does nothing to help ATK ents.
All those AFK XP grinder zombies will still be there, and they automatically get promoted to buffbots. They may not be the highest level and they may not have the most buff efficient macros, but they will still be there taking up space and probably be more than capable of giving a buff 'fast enough'. Most bot users don't care about getting the fastest buff, and often don't care about getting the highest buff. They just care about getting the easiest and most reliable buff. This also does nothing to help ATK ents.
Any player can dabble in novice ent and give anyone else be it friends or guild members the full benefit of our mechanics - "it just takes a little longer". This does nothing to help ATK ents.
If the numbers they gave are indicative of the time involved, the the only difference between a fully enhanced double master and a novice ent is 5 minutes (assuming that the novice ent buffs for 1/2 hour every minute, that's 6 minutes for the novice ent to deliver a full 3hr buff compared to 1 minute for the enhanced double master). 5 minutes is nothing a lot of the time. People wait for doctor buffs longer than that. Shuttle wait times have been as long or longer than that. Someone can come into a cantina, sit their character down in a chair watching the nearest ent and walk away for 5 minutes to make a snack or something. A novice ent healing 1000BF takes longer - a lot longer last time I checked. Again, this doesn't really do anything to help ATK ents.
I'm sorry to rain on your post, Panthu. I know the mood in here is crazy now with this latest announcement, and I know you're trying to help people find the brighter side of this. I like the concept behind this idea - I really do, and I agree with Esharra that there is the possibility of making this even more useful in the future if done right. But I think the implementation as described has some serious flaws, and I feel that these are some of them. I tried to spell out all my opinions in more detail regarding this both pro and con, hopefully in a somewhat rational manner on the In Concept thread. This kinda summarizes some of my arguments from there.
All those AFK XP grinder zombies will still be there, and they automatically get promoted to buffbots. They may not be the highest level and they may not have the most buff efficient macros, but they will still be there taking up space and probably be more than capable of giving a buff 'fast enough'. Most bot users don't care about getting the fastest buff, and often don't care about getting the highest buff. They just care about getting the easiest and most reliable buff. This also does nothing to help ATK ents.
Any player can dabble in novice ent and give anyone else be it friends or guild members the full benefit of our mechanics - "it just takes a little longer". This does nothing to help ATK ents.
If the numbers they gave are indicative of the time involved, the the only difference between a fully enhanced double master and a novice ent is 5 minutes (assuming that the novice ent buffs for 1/2 hour every minute, that's 6 minutes for the novice ent to deliver a full 3hr buff compared to 1 minute for the enhanced double master). 5 minutes is nothing a lot of the time. People wait for doctor buffs longer than that. Shuttle wait times have been as long or longer than that. Someone can come into a cantina, sit their character down in a chair watching the nearest ent and walk away for 5 minutes to make a snack or something. A novice ent healing 1000BF takes longer - a lot longer last time I checked. Again, this doesn't really do anything to help ATK ents.
I'm sorry to rain on your post, Panthu. I know the mood in here is crazy now with this latest announcement, and I know you're trying to help people find the brighter side of this. I like the concept behind this idea - I really do, and I agree with Esharra that there is the possibility of making this even more useful in the future if done right. But I think the implementation as described has some serious flaws, and I feel that these are some of them. I tried to spell out all my opinions in more detail regarding this both pro and con, hopefully in a somewhat rational manner on the In Concept thread. This kinda summarizes some of my arguments from there.
Message Edited by DanceRulez on 04-05-2005 01:39 AM
DarkY0da
Tue Apr 05, 2005 1:36 am
#2
Yes we had all just become used to also having Master=Better Buffs. Ya know like a normal functioning class... which we of course aren't. And are never going to be as long as the Devs do it their way.
As for the time investment I certainly hope that if a novice ent can buff that it takes them 10 minutes to do so.
As for the time investment I certainly hope that if a novice ent can buff that it takes them 10 minutes to do so.
Panthu
Tue Apr 05, 2005 1:50 am
#3
DanceRulez wrote:
OK, but the problem I see is this - those +25 Dance/Music bots are probably still going to be there. Why? Because they're already set up, and because they can, and maybe even because they've established a 'tradition' of being there. And that does nothing to help ATK ents.
They won't be there if they aren't getting paid. Which is why the NPC Cantina Manager in the backroom paying a salary that uses this same scaling system makes this plan darned near perfect.
Ramona_Garcia
Tue Apr 05, 2005 2:14 am
#4
Panthu wrote:
DanceRulez wrote:
OK, but the problem I see is this - those +25 Dance/Music bots are probably still going to be there. Why? Because they're already set up, and because they can, and maybe even because they've established a 'tradition' of being there. And that does nothing to help ATK ents.
They won't be there if they aren't getting paid. Which is why the NPC Cantina Manager in the backroom paying a salary that uses this same scaling system makes this plan darned near perfect.
And kills player cantinas?
Coreena
Tue Apr 05, 2005 2:34 am
#5
Problem is that a Double Master with +25 skilltapes on both (honestly: How many of those are there and how many of those are actually live entertainers) are 6 times as fast as a Novice.
Master Dancers without Skilltapes and Musician skills are probably only 2 times as fast.
Master Dancers without Skilltapes and Musician skills are probably only 2 times as fast.
Panthu
Tue Apr 05, 2005 2:40 am
#6
Some Devs have said that a Cantina Salary could be placed on Player Cantinas as well. Some say NPC Cantinas only. Some say a limited form could be put on Player Cantinas.
It is stopping the process completely if we don't even get it to a point where they can give this to us on the NPC Cantinas though.
... much like we stopped the Dev process on giving us pop-ups and interactive flo requests to help combat AFK when they offered the first step in that and we said no. Now people are asking for that, something we could have had a year ago. *shakes head* Please, work with the Devs to help us. We are a beloved pet project, it's important to grasp that.
DarkY0da
Tue Apr 05, 2005 2:50 am
#7
So now that supposedly macro fixes are happening that would stop afking we are ok instead with a pop up interface ?
Doesn't a Pop up interface go utterly against what the devs are trying to do to our professions here ? It would certainly appear so.
So why would we fight for something that appears to go 180% away from where the Devs are trying to go with our professions ? They wouldn't LIE about macro changes to fix AFK, or change their mind and not tell anyone ? So if we go with the idea that macro changes ARE going to happen and that AFK is going to go away anyways. And we look at where the proposed changes to our professions are taking us, Why would we ask for pop ups ?
Doesn't a Pop up interface go utterly against what the devs are trying to do to our professions here ? It would certainly appear so.
So why would we fight for something that appears to go 180% away from where the Devs are trying to go with our professions ? They wouldn't LIE about macro changes to fix AFK, or change their mind and not tell anyone ? So if we go with the idea that macro changes ARE going to happen and that AFK is going to go away anyways. And we look at where the proposed changes to our professions are taking us, Why would we ask for pop ups ?
Panthu
Tue Apr 05, 2005 3:20 am
#8
***nvm... was confused***
Message Edited by Panthu on 04-05-2005 06:43 AM
Caerwynn
Tue Apr 05, 2005 3:31 am
#9
As I posted in the related thread by Esharra, with these passive buffs as they currently stand, we won't know when we are buffing someone and in order to provide +25% buffs we shall have to wear our enhance leotards/outfits all the time.
I certainly don't want to wear the same outfit day after day and with the current Ent's income can't afford to buy several enhanced outfits. Afer the CU I wll have even less of an income to do so.
However, the general concept of inspirational buffsis good and we should see far more people visiting the cantinas.
DarkY0da
Tue Apr 05, 2005 3:34 am
#10
pretty much what I was saying was...
I hated the idea of pop ups then. I don't like it now. ID Interface is a a far different thing then what we would be getting our using. Mainly because the ID interface is changes to someones character, so that person can look over the changes and accept them if they like it. I find survey pop ups annoying for the most part because you get into a rhythm and it just poofs is there in your way breaking that rhythm.
All that I honestly keep picturing is someone going /watch and something like the survey/trade window popping up into the middle of our screen. And do you know how annoying it would be for those times when I'm not buffing and someone comes in and I have to tell them sorry no I'm not doing that right now. That would just be a very bad player interaction.
But I also guess that I'm trying to go with what we are... non-functioning, non-healers what ever it is that the Devs have us down as. So I look at their idea and all I see from it is that they want us to be non-interactive as a pre-others game play stop. Quick, easy and passive only needing /watch or /listen.
Something that isn't needed as a step before someone can get to their game play, but that if they do want it, is quick and painless to both sides so they can get on their way.
And to me it would seem that a Interface or pop-up window goes utterly against that idea.
But it would certainly seem that a lot of people in the in concept thread want something like that...
I hated the idea of pop ups then. I don't like it now. ID Interface is a a far different thing then what we would be getting our using. Mainly because the ID interface is changes to someones character, so that person can look over the changes and accept them if they like it. I find survey pop ups annoying for the most part because you get into a rhythm and it just poofs is there in your way breaking that rhythm.
All that I honestly keep picturing is someone going /watch and something like the survey/trade window popping up into the middle of our screen. And do you know how annoying it would be for those times when I'm not buffing and someone comes in and I have to tell them sorry no I'm not doing that right now. That would just be a very bad player interaction.
But I also guess that I'm trying to go with what we are... non-functioning, non-healers what ever it is that the Devs have us down as. So I look at their idea and all I see from it is that they want us to be non-interactive as a pre-others game play stop. Quick, easy and passive only needing /watch or /listen.
Something that isn't needed as a step before someone can get to their game play, but that if they do want it, is quick and painless to both sides so they can get on their way.
And to me it would seem that a Interface or pop-up window goes utterly against that idea.
But it would certainly seem that a lot of people in the in concept thread want something like that...
Panthu
Tue Apr 05, 2005 3:42 am
#11
Ohhhhhhh, gotcha. Glad I came back and read that. Yeah, anyway, I think that's why the Cantina Manager with the long delay check is such a good solution. It doesn't get in between us and the patron any, but it is a good ATK check because it deals with income.
*scurries off to edit out rambling*
DarkY0da
Tue Apr 05, 2005 4:07 am
#12
Most certainly... If we ever get to a revamp ish type thing I would love to see a FAME system (FRS/Ent Quests) that could have an affect on the sort of payment we could get from the different cantinas.
SFXGenesis
Tue Apr 05, 2005 4:10 am
#13
Another related issue: This will make the system even more confusing to the customer. All they know is that dual masters with +25/+25 can do it in a minute. This gives them even less reason to search out any other ent, because, as was said prior, most live ents aren't dual masters with +25/+25.
Dani
Message Edited by SFXGenesis on 04-05-2005 07:16 AM
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