Dancer Archive
Thread: What did we do to get such little respect?
Ihareo wrote:
But being on the defnsive here, there are hundreds of posts of Dancers screaming at people who ask for macro information, and hundreds more of people moaning and whining about every little niggling detail about AFK players.
It's been more than a year and no one has explained in a calm and reasonable manner why AFK entertainers should be removed. NO ONE. Not one reasonable explination.
On the first point, keep in mind that a lot of those people coming in here asking for macros were simply trolls trying to bait the Dancer forum and provoke responses in their own pathetic attempt to amuse themselves. The moderators must have thought so too as many of those posts were locked or removed entirely - many before they even received many replies.
On the second point all I can say is ... what??? You can honestly say that you have not ever seen even ONE single post with a reasonable argument against AFK entertainers? Have you been reading this forum? Look, I'll grant you that there have been a lot of heated and emotional arguments against AFK here. Maybe even most of them. But I have also seen arguments against AFK that make all their points in a straightforward and logical manner, and furthermore I feel I have written some of these posts. I don't see how you can make such a claim unless you haven't followed the AFK debate threads very closely, or are simply choosing to ignore or dismiss the points that other people have made. Whatever the reason, I don't intend to try to convince you here or start up the debate again in this thread, and even if I wanted to it would seem that you have already made up your mind anyway.
Eh, I defer to Drygo's post above mine. He says it much better than I did.
Message Edited by DanceRulez on 07-20-2005 06:51 PM
Ihareo wrote:I can go on all day. It's been more than a year and no one has explained in a calm and reasonable manner why AFK entertainers should be removed. NO ONE. Not one reasonable explination.
Are you serious?
Yes, I am serious.
Drygo, you are a very reasonable person, and I have read your posts.
The problem is that none of the resons you provide come from an objective standpoint. All your reasons, while put inmature fasion come from a personal issue. You were hurt in some fashion, there for all AFK must be stopped. The reason I don't concider that rational is because you would punish an entire class of players for a problem that you experienced that may or may not have happened anyway if the same characters wereATK. Therefore, your reasons cannot be called in as evidence against AFKers. I draw the parallel to the painter community calling for Pablo Picasso's buisness licence to be removed because the art he sold was surreal and slapdash. They reasoned that he didn't create art, he just slapped the paint on and made a million, which he fully admitted to, however his pieces that were his 'true' art never sold untill after his death.
As for the accusation that I am pro AFK, that is the exact responce category that keeps this community from acting as a whole. You have accused me of this based on the fact that I concider punishing an entire group for the actions of a few to be wrong, and that I don't find personal vedettas to be viable evidence. You are wrong. I do NOT approve of an AFK playstyle, or buffbots. But the problem is that I have yet to see a VIABLE, OBJECTIVE reason for them to be removed.
"Because we don't like them" That's called bigotry.
"Because they take money away from ATK players" Ever hear of NINA? How about Aparthide?
"Because they spam" How about freedom of speech?
"Because it's not fair" Define fair.
"Because they arent at the keyboard" SWG was designed with that in mind.
"Because they made us lose respect" We haven't been respected from day one.
"Because they're annoying" See bigotry.
The thing is folks, the ony valid reason we have come up with has been countered by the DEVs, and that is 'but they aren't at the keyboard'. But rather than come together and try to actually come up with a well thought out plan that makes everybody happy, we collectively screamed and stamped our feet and refused to budge that AFKers just need to be removed all together.
And that's my point. We refused to adapt, and now we have been churned under. Not as retaliation by the DEVs, I'm sure, but churned under none the less.
Message Edited by Ihareo on 07-21-2005 07:05 AM
Message Edited by Ihareo on 07-21-2005 08:01 AM
How about disturbing the peace? . . . . spam
Ihareo wrote:
Yes, I am serious.
Drygo, you are a very reasonable person, and I have read your posts.
The problem is that none of the resons you provide come from an objective standpoint. All your reasons, while put inmature fasion come from a personal issue. You were hurt in some fashion, there for all AFK must be stopped. The reason I don't concider that rational is because you would punish an entire class of players for a problem that you experienced that may or may not have happened anyway if the same characters wereATK. Therefore, your reasons cannot be called in as evidence against AFKers. I draw the parallel to the painter community calling for Pablo Picasso's buisness licence to be removed because the art he sold was surreal and slapdash. They reasoned that he didn't create art, he just slapped the paint on and made a million, which he fully admitted to, however his pieces that were his 'true' art never sold untill after his death.
As for the accusation that I am pro AFK, that is the exact responce category that keeps this community from acting as a whole. You have accused me of this based on the fact that I concider punishing an entire group for the actions of a few to be wrong, and that I don't find personal vedettas to be viable evidence. You are wrong. I do NOT approve of an AFK playstyle, or buffbots. But the problem is that I have yet to see a VIABLE, OBJECTIVE reason for them to be removed.
"Because we don't like them" That's called bigotry.
"Because they take money away from ATK players" Ever hear of NINA? How about Aparthide?
"Because they spam" How about freedom of speech?
"Because it's not fair" Define fair.
"Because they arent at the keyboard" SWG was designed with that in mind.
"Because they made us lose respect" We haven't been respected from day one.
"Because they're annoying" See bigotry.
The thing is folks, the ony valid reason we have come up with has been countered by the DEVs, and that is 'but they aren't at the keyboard'. But rather than come together and try to actually come up with a well thought out plan that makes everybody happy, we collectively screamed and stamped our feet and refused to budge that AFKers just need to be removed all together.
And that's my point. We refused to adapt, and now we have been churned under. Not as retaliation by the DEVs, I'm sure, but churned under none the less.
Message Edited by Ihareo on 07-21-2005 07:05 AM
Cuit wrote:
How about disturbing the peace? . . . . spam Spam is not legaly classified as disturbing the peace, especially in a crowded public place where a live band is playing.
How about vagrancy? . . . . begging for credits Vagrancy is homelessness, not begging for money, you are thinking of pandering, which is begging for money with no services offered. AFK entertainers DID provide a service.
How about Loitering? . . . . taking up space that a players toon can use. See bigotry. See also NINA, Aparthide, Manifest destiny. See also Native Americans, Ainu, Pygmys, Astecs, Toltecs, Celts, Saxons, African Americans before the civil rights movement.
How about causeing Lag bt expending bandwidth without the intention of actually playing. If you want to use that you also have to get rid of Jedi, TK artists and Commandos as all their weapons also cause lag with their particle effects.
Would these count as rational reasons? No, for the reasons explained.
Message Edited by Ihareo on 07-21-2005 08:36 AM
It kinda falls down here, if Pacasso had been able to make his paintings without being in front of his canvas or touching a paint brush, then it would have been a fair comparison.
Ihareo wrote:
--Picasso would wake up, belt out a painting, then go out and play the rest of the day.
--AFKers log on, set up the macro, then go out and play with their alts the rest of the day.
NeillM wrote:
It kinda falls down here, if Pacasso had been able to make his paintings without being in front of his canvas or touching a paint brush, then it would have been a fair comparison.
Ihareo wrote:
--Picasso would wake up, belt out a painting, then go out and play the rest of the day.
--AFKers log on, set up the macro, then go out and play with their alts the rest of the day.
Wrong. AFKers must be in front of their keyboards to log in and start their macros. After they have done so, their work is done. Even if that were not the case, or applicable, Automated paintingis a reality, even in Picasso's day. Many of the works that are commonly credited to picasso were actually the works of his understudies. The credit for an understudy or apprentice going to the Master was and still is commonplace, and legally accepted. In addition to that there are computer programs that set up and paint a CG picture on their own, all the artist has to do is configure them. Also, setting up a device to apply paint to a canvase in a Rube Goldberg fashion was very popular for a while, some artists still do it today as a sort of retro statement.
Message Edited by Ihareo on 07-21-2005 08:42 AM
I dont know anyone that does that even ATK ones.
Ikewe wrote:
For someone who wants the AFK issue to go away you sure do seem to be dragging it around for the world to keep seeing. How about moving this conversation to it's designated thread? Please.
I don't want the issue to go away. I want it to be put away properly.
If we just ignore the mistakes of the past, we will make them again when a similar situation comes up. Anyone who doubts that, just take a peek in the Jedi forums.
I'm doing this because I care about the dancer community. Everyone needs to know and really understand that while yes, the AFKers are finally gone, look at the cost we ended up paying for it.
I don't. The stuff I like to do can't be macroed and still look good. Now this discussion needs to go to the AFK thread. You'll find it in the FAQ sticky.
Oblox2 wrote:
Not to mention who dances without any macros ever?
I dont know anyone that does that even ATK ones.
Message Edited by Esharra on 07-21-2005 11:47 AM
