Dancer Archive
Thread: How to deal with AFK Macroers
My argument in a nutshell:
hehe I've done that, and been told that I'm being 'elitist' for wanting to only group with living players. I've been called rude for having the gall to boot someone whose afk flag popped up-they had a good reason for being AFK and I reinvited her when she came back to keys but she refused (I did apologise too but apparently I was the rude one for not psychically knowing why she'd gone afk without saying anything long enough for the game to flag her AFK). I'm done with AFK people-I just don't dance in the same cantina as bots anymore
That's pretty sad, in my opinion. Here's someone who boots a person from their group with no knowledge of why or how long this person was afk. She comes back, miffed (and with good reason - if your mother called and someone booted you, wouldn't you be?) and this person wonders why they're the rude one?
Hypotheticals aside, the above poster needs to reevaluate their social skills, if only for that one occasion. But this is what people read when they come here. They see this brand of callow disregard between anyone that just happens to have an AFK tag up and is dancing. Maybe I'm missing the point. Maybe that there IS an actual ethical booboo on the part of these AFK people. But I've been there too, I've played in Theed cantina, and I've been appaled at some performer's behaviors there, on both sides of this line you've drawn.
And that's simply the point - don't draw the line. It's not going to help, it's going to create more situations like that above, where people take the high and mighty or others feel that guilt and anger in retribution.
I'm not afraid of ethical issues.
I'm sure you're not. But a question of game mechanics need not be an issue of ethical values. It ought to be a question of enchancing the enjoyment and entertainment of others. And as many others as that needs to be, not just the select few that play by the rules that you choose to follow or enforce. Especially when you're not the person who wrote the rules. (And yes, I know my argument here is in jeapordy with the now-infamous and controversial clause found in the EULA.)
One of the very best EQ players I ever knew was a bard, and he had absolutely no problems with respect -- why? If he wasn't recovering corpses, he was lulling and pulling or charming mobs or singing to boost mana regen. He proved his value over and over in our hunting groups -- so when I say "apples and oranges", I mean just that.
And so have I. You may, at your leisure, wander over to eqdiva.com and find out. But this is not a measurement contest. Up until the Bard community as a whole proved their worth, Bards were still subject to harrassment. As I said, it came around the time of the later expansions when the extra levels gave bards some truly wonderful abilities. Conicendence, I'm sure.
The buff enhancement isn't supposed to be the ideal, perfect fix for 100% of our problems.
No, it's not. But it'll help and I don't think we're arguing over that. I think everyone, developers included are interested in making this more powerful and available without being overpowering. It is extra goodies, well needed goodies, but my previous argument hinged on the fact that everyone is dependant on performers as it is now, and probably for the life of the game, with mind wounds. That's the feeling of dependance I was referring to that is one cause (not the cause, I'm not that banal) to foster anti-performer feelings.
And I'm no fool: the very sensual, if not overtly sexual, moves of a Dancer are a large part of the objectification of Dancers, something that only affects the Dancer profession. However, without the removal of the exotic leotard, the skin suit, the torso (read: breast size) adjustment, the Twi'lek and Human female genders, this is an issue that will never go away and perhaps has no solution. It's why this debate will never be solved either: tangled in with game mechanics and social attitudes towards the Dancer/Musician community is this unsolvable issue of human sexuality.
No more macroing while you sleep.
This is of course, the sound bite of your argument; its also where I disagree with you the most. My question, which always seems to produce a counter argument preceeded with a long sigh at best is simple: "Why bother?" Why not work to make it so that the advantages of being live are greater than they are currently instead of drawing this line between those that agree with you and those that do not? Why force the issue into a finger pointing contest? Perhaps I'm just an optimist; but I'd feel better coming into a cantina late one night with a black bar and knowing that someone was kind enough to leave the light on without having to feel guilty because they are, and sad that this is not out of context, "across the picket line" (and I just love the strike threads; which, is unfair because you too realize their futility.)
Now who's on the podium preaching? Frankly, I have no respect at all for long-time AFK macroers, and they deserve the sort of disrespect they get with terms like "LAMERs". In fact, I could come up with much worse acronyms given enough time and motivation.
So if you really fault my methods, put aside your Roget's for a moment and get back to my original point: What is the best way to handle AFKers and try to redeem them back into the active, participatory activity we call "playing the game"?
Game. Set. Match. Acknowledging my argument that you do in fact wish to force the line between you and the (again, sic) "LAMErs" and even go so far to intimate that you could and would call them worse (and perhaps do in the vaults of your judgmental mind). That is, not to put a fine point on it, the problem.
And if you fault my questions for seeking another solution for a problem that I have peripheral interest in, you lean towards the subtle attempt to insinuate that I'm padding my writing with expanded vocabulary to "smokescreen" the debate. (Your word, too.) I have been presenting the solution I have in mind; or at least what I see is path to it. It does not involve judgement, nor this blatent disrepect towards others of whom you have no understanding (and again, this is unfair as this is addressed to the people like that above who like to kick people because baby needs a wipe.) Perhaps I should tone my argument down into "sound bites" as well, but I don't think I'd like that. I write with my own style and to "dumb it down" involves a level of concession that I'm not prepared to take nor acknowledge the need to do so.
But, since even peotry must have a closing line, then by all means I offer my meager best.
"We gotta let love rule."
I am an "elitist" by your definition, which seems to be anyone who thinks that AFK Macro Botting is a bad idea. Since that's your definition of "elitism", then I am an elitist.
Do I think I am "better" than they are, as a person? No. As a dancer? Probably literally I am, since I have actually had practice at the craft and they haven't, but I'm not actually all that great at it myself so I wouldn't even be prepared to say that for sure.
And you are aware, I assume, that a lot of the AFK Macro botters look down their noses at the at-keyboard entertainers, right?
Oh yes, they do. I have been laughed at because I am "still" a novice dancer and these people are "choreographers" and "enthrallers" and the like. When I say things like, "Oh, well, I only dance when I'm at-keyboard and that's only a couple of hours a day," I am scoffed at more often than not, by the people who "achieved" their title and skiills while at the movies, in bed, at school, at work, or pretty much anywhere else than in the game.
(Before you ask,"How can an AFK person mock you?", the answer is, these people do have to actually log in and walk into a cantina and get invited into groups and stuff... and it is at this point that I have several times been scoffed at for still being a novice when people who started weeks after me are already masters.)
I'm sorry, but I think the AFK Macro-botters are doing a LOT more to harm the profession than the entertainers who don't like what the AFK Macro-botters are doing. If that makes me "an elitist" then so be it.
C
You realize of course that I was being a bit sarcastic.
Of course. In that, "wow someone jumped on that fast" way, yes you were totally sarcastic. I felt it. I really did. *thumps his fist over his heart* We're brothers, the two of us. Bonded by forces of literary prowess. Really.
So subtlety isn't one of my finer points.
And you are aware, I assume, that a lot of the AFK Macro botters look down their noses at the at-keyboard entertainers, right?
To be brutally honest, that's the first time I've heard of that. I'm sure it must happen, even if it's more along the lines of "lolololol u suxxor n00b lol u git pwnd". Maybe I've never seen it because nobody bothered to type that into a macro on Theed.
I joke.
Before you ask,"How can an AFK person mock you?",
Curses.
I'm sorry, but I think the AFK Macro-botters are doing a LOT more to harm the profession than the entertainers who don't like what the AFK Macro-botters are doing
And that's fine, I'm not arguing that. But you have to face facts that short of some pretty hefty limitations being imposed that that particular problem is going to stay. So if you can admit that entertainers taking out their aggressions with superior attitudes upon the mass legion of afk'ers determined to screw the dancing professions out of their hard earned respect is in at least, some measure of wrong, why not take steps to correct that issue first?
Just a thought.
If I wanted to be in a party full of NPCs, I'd play Icewind Dale.
I don't understand why I'm considered elitist for not wanting to group with NPCs in a multiplayer game, but whatever. If someone doesn't want to accept a reinvite after being removed, that's *their* problem, not mine. I didn't know the person, so it's not like I know their usual game habits, for all I knew it was yet another person wanting to leech better exp off of people who are actually playing the game. If someone removed me from a group because an emergency took me AFK unexpectedly, I'd certainly not get my panties in a wad over it when I came back to the keys. It's not like they're permanently banning me, for crying out loud.
As someone else said, (paraphrasing here), if you don't like dancing while you're skilling up, you're not going to like it as a master either so why bother?
Sorry to have derailed your thread Sinda.
Good lord, are you for real? Or does your perception of the rest of the world ever extend past your own ego?
Geddi-chan wrote:
My argument in a nutshell:
hehe I've done that, and been told that I'm being 'elitist' for wanting to only group with living players. I've been called rude for having the gall to boot someone whose afk flag popped up-they had a good reason for being AFK and I reinvited her when she came back to keys but she refused (I did apologise too but apparently I was the rude one for not psychically knowing why she'd gone afk without saying anything long enough for the game to flag her AFK). I'm done with AFK people-I just don't dance in the same cantina as bots anymore
That's pretty sad, in my opinion. Here's someone who boots a person from their group with no knowledge of why or how long this person was afk. She comes back, miffed (and with good reason - if your mother called and someone booted you, wouldn't you be?) and this person wonders why they're the rude one?
Just for clarification, you quoted back someone else's post in your response to me. For further clarification, you are misrepresenting the situation when you claim "no knowledge of why or how long this person was afk". That is a strawman - a misrepresentation of the actual situation in order to reinforce your own point.
I join a group. Usually (lately anyway), at least half of the group is AFK, sometimes more. You can tell because the others are responding to what you say and talking to customers. An hour goes by. The same non-responsive people are STILL non-responsive and haven't said a word. They're running the same flourishes to the same dance regardless of what music is playing. They're smiling every 4.8 minutes at no one in particular or asking out loud for tips. The leadership of the group rotates as players come and go. IF an afker comes back - which isn't often - I've asked them why they're macroing and normally I get some lame excuse like "just want to level fast" or "I'm watching a movie". I don't have to GUESS - they tell me. If they go afk for 5 or 10 minutes with "brb, phone call" or something else, nobody has EVER thought twice about it. Ever! And yet you're getting hung up on this unnecessary muddying of the issue. It's not working.
Hypotheticals aside, the above poster needs to reevaluate their social skills
And you consider yourself the resident expert on social skills?
And that's simply the point - don't draw the line. It's not going to help, it's going to create more situations like that above, where people take the high and mighty or others feel that guilt and anger in retribution.
Watch and learn. Making the noise we've made WILL help, and soon. Things are going to change in the game that will make it much tougher to AFK macro - if not impossible.
I'm sure you're not. But a question of game mechanics need not be an issue of ethical values.
Harming others, even if insignificantly through gameplay, IS an ethical issue.
It ought to be a question of enchancing the enjoyment and entertainment of others. And as many others as that needs to be, not just the select few that play by the rules that you choose to follow or enforce. Especially when you're not the person who wrote the rules.
Well, thank you so much for showing me the light. I would have wandered aimlessly forever had you not come along and told me how to enjoy myself.
And so have I. You may, at your leisure, wander over to eqdiva.com and find out.
I'm not sure why it's supposed to matter or why I would want to waste my time. EQ Bards were a combat class. SWG Entertainers are not. The comparison is short-lived at best, despite your best efforts to stretch it.
No, it's not. But it'll help and I don't think we're arguing over that. I think everyone, developers included are interested in making this more powerful and available without being overpowering. It is extra goodies, well needed goodies, but my previous argument hinged on the fact that everyone is dependant on performers as it is now, and probably for the life of the game, with mind wounds. That's the feeling of dependance I was referring to that is one cause (not the cause, I'm not that banal) to foster anti-performer feelings.
The anti-performer feelings we see are because that dependence is perceived as being contrived. Players were dependent on Clerics in EQ, too, but they didn't resent it because Cleric buffs were the very best. They added to other players' gameplay. Give us the Mind Buff improvementsand I am willing to bet next month's paycheck that most players will see the buffs as a very helpful addition - something to be desired, not resented.
And I'm no fool: the very sensual, if not overtly sexual, moves of a Dancer are a large part of the objectification of Dancers, something that only affects the Dancer profession.
You're digressing again. This has nothing to do with sexual objectification. And for the record, I've never had that problem myself even though I've wornflesh wraps and leotards. I'm not easily offended. I've always had more difficultiesaccepting the behavior of my fellow dancers than I ever have with customers -- the underwear skanks, the overt sexual solicitation in public, the indiscrimate /lick and /kissing on the lips are much more objectionable to me than anything a customer has ever done. Having said that, how about sticking to the topic?
No more macroing while you sleep.
This is of course, the sound bite of your argument; its also where I disagree with you the most. My question, which always seems to produce a counter argument preceeded with a long sigh at best is simple: "Why bother?" Why not work to make it so that the advantages of being live are greater than they are currently instead of drawing this line between those that agree with you and those that do not? Why force the issue into a finger pointing contest?
And all this time I thought that was what my proposal for the mindbuffs would do, and what I thought I was talking about in the first post of this thread. Maybe the problem is your reading comprehension rather than my own objectives, because this is exactly what I've been trying to get to -- motivated by the indisputable fact that AFK macroers have ruined the cantina atmosphere, disgraced the dancing profession and built resentment among the player community. They have earned our disgust in spades. If making my point involves boiling things down to succinct phrasing -- "soundbytes" if you insist, I think it's far preferable to trying to impress the world with your haughty opinion of yourself.
Game. Set. Match. Acknowledging my argument that you do in fact wish to force the line between you and the (again, sic) "LAMErs" and even go so far to intimate that you could and would call them worse (and perhaps do in the vaults of your judgmental mind). That is, not to put a fine point on it, the problem.
Frankly, I think you just need to get over yourself. Sitting in judgement of me while calling ME judgemental is blatant hypocrisy.
And if you fault my questions for seeking another solution for a problem that I have peripheral interest in, you lean towards the subtle attempt to insinuate that I'm padding my writing with expanded vocabulary to "smokescreen" the debate. (Your word, too.)
After accusing me of preaching, you have now spent at least 3 posts pontificating and digressing (as if YOUR opinion carried more weight anywhere but in your own mind) until this thread is completely hijacked -- due to your incomprehensible verbosity. I thought I was being kind, but I guess kindness doesn't make a point. I understand now.
I have been presenting the solution I have in mind; or at least what I see is path to it. It does not involve judgement, nor this blatent disrepect towards others of whom you have no understanding (and again, this is unfair as this is addressed to the people like that above who like to kick people because baby needs a wipe.)
How funny - you claim you don't judge, and yet you've spent most of this thread judging me. And you can't even seem to manage it without constructing your transparent strawmen.
Perhaps I should tone my argument down into "sound bites" as well, but I don't think I'd like that. I write with my own style and to "dumb it down" involves a level of concession that I'm not prepared to take nor acknowledge the need to do so.
Geddi, I'm totally in agreement with you on the need for an edit button lol 
I should clarify that in my case, when I formed that particular group I said up front that I wanted to have all the live bodies grouped and that I'd be removing people that went AFK. Since the person was forewarned, she could have sent me a tell letting me know that there were some RL things pulling her AFK unexpectedly and I'd never have removed her from the group. Or she could have just rejoined when she came back. It's not like I booted her without her knowing ahead of time that I would be disbanding AFKers.
No apologies necessary, Velvet. The damage was already done long ago
Velvet-dancer wrote:
If I wanted to be in a party full of NPCs, I'd play Icewind Dale.
I don't understand why I'm considered elitist for not wanting to group with NPCs in a multiplayer game, but whatever. If someone doesn't want to accept a reinvite after being removed, that's *their* problem, not mine. I didn't know the person, so it's not like I know their usual game habits, for all I knew it was yet another person wanting to leech better exp off of people who are actually playing the game. If someone removed me from a group because an emergency took me AFK unexpectedly, I'd certainly not get my panties in a wad over it when I came back to the keys. It's not like they're permanently banning me, for crying out loud.
Velvet, it's not "elitist" to expect everyone to have to gain skills in the game the way it was designed -- not by automating the game play so that it becomes nothing more than a graphical Word macro. You make a very good point. And as i said in another post, I have never known anyone to get /kicked from a group for going to the bathroom, answering the phone or changing their baby's diapers. That's just a phony construct that doesn't exist in reality, IMO.
Sorry to have derailed your thread Sinda.
Thank you for your input.Good lord, are you for real? Or does your perception of the rest of the world ever extend past your own ego?
If you can't succeed in arguing, insult. I like it. But since we've already descended into the assine with the "nut uh, you're judgemental", why don't I switch gears and actuallytry to get a rise out of you, then. I'm sure this little experiment might get me banned, but it's not like I'm missing anything besides the endless theories of how to become a Jedi and "NERF EYESHOT!11111one!111" And I'm sure half of the anti-AFK crowd have labeled me as a troll anyway, since Iam so obviouslytrying to bury the argument in irrelevant details.Obviously. As if I haven't been trying to at least maintain civility, where you clearly have lost it.
So, since I'm feeling nice and vicious, since you really insist on winning an argument that I thought had been going fairly well, I'll lace in to it and see, even after a warning, how badly I can get your goat.
Let's begin, shall we?
Just for clarification, you quoted back someone else's post in your response to me. For further clarification, you are misrepresenting the situation when you claim "no knowledge of why or how long this person was afk".
Duly noted; since it was only directly above mine, I assumed the sourcewas obvious. But since you're so intent on ramming your prejugdice down my throat one way or another, you continued with this little "I learned this in Debate class"
That is a strawman - a misrepresentation of the actual situation in order to reinforce your own point.
No, that's a misunderstanding. In my inital reading of the paragraph I quoted, from another poster (and I'm the egotistical one), I had given the posted the benefit of the doubt in that he didn't know why the dancer was AFK. But he did - even better, reenforcing the idea that dancers think it's okay to kick someone out of a group because they have to go AFK, for whatever reason;even the "good ones". (His words.)
And you consider yourself the resident expert on social skills? Frankly, I think you just need to get over yourself. Or does your perception of the rest of the world ever extend past your own ego?
Comedy gold. Not only descending into the hyperbole by trying to present that I am some how implying myself to be anything more (or less, for once) then presenting an opinion, but losing your cool or at least your tenous grip on civility (here's where the hypocrisy comes in, for all the kids at home, watch this), for clearly anyone as bigoted and prejugdicial as you could never have more than just a toehold on civil behavior. Puhlease. Say it with me, now. Opinion. O-pin-yon. Not onion. Opinion. O-pin. There ya go. Good girl, you get a /tip.
Harming others, even if insignificantly through gameplay, IS an ethical issue.
Harming you? Or just hindering your ideal of how people should play? How is it taking away what you've already had? Oh that's right, you're probably (broad sweeping generalization for the folks at home keeping score) part of the crowd that assumes that tips, which by any other name is called gratuity, which of course is (dictionary reference to a well known word, designed to insult intelligence, this is what we like to call the "dictionary.com" play, kids) "A favor or gift, usually in the form of money, given in return for service." A gift. A favor. Something optional. Not opinion. Op-shun... you got it.
Well, thank you so much for showing me the light. I would have wandered aimlessly forever had you not come along and told me how to enjoy myself
I wonder if you do. (extremely condensending and degarding remark about the female condition.) Maybe a man in your life might help? One that's not reading over your shoulder as you read this saying, "oh honey, you SO owned him! Yes, you're the bestest sweetie!"
I am willing to bet next month's paycheck that most players will see the buffs as a very helpful addition - something to be desired, not resented.
Which is what nice class love like that is designed to foster. It will certainly help. No argument there, and in fact, for like... all of my posts but the first, I've been saying just that.
Addressing this issue adds considerable depth to the Entertainer classes... suddenly they become very desirable addtition to combat classes and a wonderful companion to a Field Medic on a large hunt. It will help. But it'll help and I don't think we're arguing over that. I think everyone, developers included are interested in making this more powerful and available without being overpowering.
So I can't be accused of changing the argument as we go along. Again. We haven't been arguing over that. We're arguing over attitude and perception, intangible little flys of detail that buzz in our ears and land in our beers. (And yes, I do fancy myself a poet, thank you very much.) (innane egotistical statement, the truth of which is irrelevant. these are the tools of the dark side, yes...)
You're digressing again.
Yes, I was. So dutiful of you to point that out. What was, I felt at least, a rather remarkably sensitive paragraph about the sexual objectification of women and how this carried over into the dancer profession was lost in this argument. But it was something that you mentioned a few times, albiet indirectly, and in other threads. It was placed poorly. My appologies for lack of focus. Speaking of lack of focus, you tyranical twit, I'm supposed to be flaming you here and reenforcing all these reader's opinions that I am just some mindless troll, bored and frustrated with the failure of my life, the girl whose love I lost over the summer and my growing weight problems. The funny thing is that, if enough people belive it so, it's true. Had I gallently jumped to agreement with the same "incomprehensible verbosity" (a truly masterful phrase, and here I thought perhaps liberal use of proper, formal English was lost on the Internet) I am sure that I would be an IT professional, ahead of schedule, waiting for my friends to go to the gym to work off those hamburgers a co-worker brought in.
Truly, the human mind is a mysterious thing.
But, as you've so succiently pointed out, I digress. Heavens forbid. Back to my concrete bunker of reenforcement.
After accusing me of preaching, you have now spent at least 3 posts pontificating and digressing (as if YOUR opinion carried more weight anywhere but in your own mind) until this thread is completely hijacked -- due to your incomprehensible verbosity.
(the following is left an excersize for the class) I had to, I loved that phrase. You really had me there. Imploying a bit of my "type of vocabulary" (this phrase I can only imagine has echoed in the dim minds of some readers who excersized more self control than you) to sting me back was truly the mark of a master. Obviously I should have phrased my arguments in the form of "omg u sux Sinda, u r suck a bithc!!111``11", which of course is the only logicial response to the anti-AFK arguments other than the three you posted up top and then promptly dismissed with all the grace of a divawith Aunt Flo visiting. Of course, it's easier just to backpedal and spit out debate terms like "strawman" to attack what was, honestly, a misunderstanding, not a deliberate intent to deceive. Of course, had I understood the other poster's true meaning, I'm sure I'd have written a more scathing retort.
Because I'll tell you this. I abhor elitism and prejugdice such as the kind you display here. I've lurked for quite some time on these boards, and your bitchy, spiteful posts never cease to get pointed at and wondered among friends just what the hell goes on in that sick demented mind. Now I get a bit more of the picture, and my decision to delete my Entertainer is now justified to my judgemental mind. I wouldn't want to be associated with a crowd like this. I now feel more appreciative of the friends I do have who have risen above this petty bickering that drags down this forum and have made performers a truly entertaining experience for those in need of their services, or just in need of a safe haven. In short, ban all the AFKers, call them naughty names, redicule their mothers, and call them whores. It really doesn't affect me, but it sure as hell affects how your profession is viewed.
How's that for high and mighty? That's what a soapbox rant is supposed to read like. My hypocrisy is wide open for all to read, Sinda. Yours is just hidden under the pile of dirty laundry that is the controversy that is AFK macroers, something that, given your apparent dedication to the profession shouldn't even be an issue, as you've conceeded that player cities, dancer/music buffs, and other gameplay incentives rewarding the live dancers ought to fix the problem. Yet you post drivel like "how to'deal with'AFKers" when it ought to just be driven by goddamned common courtesy.
I'll leave the implications for you to fester over. I'm done.
Now, wasn't that pleasent? Was that more of what you were expecting, or would you just (assuming you don't get me banned, which would be rather comical) go back to having what I thought was a pretty enjoyable discussion regarding the general state of Dancers? I'm sure you won't, I've hijacked your thread (ohnos!), made glaring sins of divergance (ohnos!) and generaly made (internet counter-culture reference) Baby Jesus cry. Or would you just like to make more comments about my grammatical structure?
how can you sit there and tell me that "there are larger issues than image"?
Easily. Your corespondent has labeled your top issue as being the duration and effectiveness of Entertainer mind buffs. You yourself linked that to the Musicians forum and identified it as the Dancer/Musician TOP issue. And it is. Outside of fatigue and wound healing, Dancers and Musicians offer nothing out of the field, and fatigue healing can only be performed in a cantina. Addressing this issue adds considerable depth to the Entertainer classes... suddenly they become very desirable addtition to combat classes and a wonderful companion to a Field Medic on a large hunt.
After you've read your 100th complaint about us ALL being lamers for botting our way to Master and how we don't deserve tips, then come back here and tell me image doesn't matter.
True, there is that. However, how exactly does that blight your class and YOUR experience as (I would assume) an active and actually entertaining dancer? The people that think poorly of those that Entertain are going to think that way regardless of the existance of macros. They'd just find other points to latch on to. Homophobia towards male entertainers (and Dancers in particular), treatment of Entertainers as battle fatigue "bots" (and certainly I'll allow this to be major point of distain towards AFK entertainters, yet, sometimes those bots can be VERY appreciated, like late night/early morning pacific time on a remote planet), or just plain old distain towards "non-combat" professions (which is laughable, since the Entertainer professions go well with combat, especially melee, professions.)
In short, you're speaking of the unenlightened mass of gamers who simply don't care regardless of what Dancers have to do to heal their wounds. Trust me, I got the same treatment at times for being a Bard in Everquest, a class that can NEVER be accused of being lazy at the keyboard.
If we don't want the cantinas of SWG to end up as empty as the taverns in EQ, things need to change.Yeah, player cities need to be implemented. Let's face it, all but the most well-connected or political NPC cities are going to be ghost towns or simple travel terminals when PC cities are added. Medical centers will be (and are in some large cities) largely abandoned save in PVP hotspots like Theed, Bestine andAnchorhead
Who's being catty? Is that what you're hearing?Yes it is. And it's what drove me away from the Entertainment profession to begin with. Granted, you're going to get a bit of hostility within the family with a bunch of would-be rockstars and divas, but even the EQ Bard community has a degree of civility when dealing with the less-social or less-socially-accepted within their ranks (to name: Swarm Kiters.)
As for our image, I don't think you grasp the concept here. Dancers are ALL image.
Entertainers are about image, yes. However, you're going to find that there are people that will knock your style of play regardless of what you do to perserve it. Weak combat classes will attract jaded players that willcurse how rich entertainers can be without hard missions or just endless gnort killing, regardless of how well you're tipped. Powerful FOTM professions will attract the kind of mental giants that will toss distain at the entertainers that just recovered entire black mind bars out of ennui, testosterone or just simple blighted malcontent with life in general, who knows?
In short, get the Entertainer class more powerful first - get the issue of mind buffs resolved, then see how "Ent bots" affect the class. The more tools you have at your disposal, the more you can deny folks that bot (and a powerful tool this is- deny AFK entertainers the ability to buff mind stats and suddenly you have a great desire for active entertainers that can give powerful buffs.)
And the best for last...
Our profession is visual-only, we depend on /tips from customers who usually /tip according to the image we project
As many wise men have said, "Follow the money." Yes, of course, it comes down to the precious tips. While, for a support class, it is hard to get money without tips, it is not, in fact impossible. Tips are nice, though. I tip. I try to tip well, but I'm not a rich man. I'll tip usually 10% or so of my night's earnings if I was out doing missions, and if not, I'll try to tip each member of the band according to how messed up I was. But these are gifts. I know every single one of them has a combat or crafter profession that earns them money. I know first hand some of the whopping tips that can take place. But for me it's a community thing. Money goes back into the cantina, into the PA funds, or into new clothes. I'd say our entertainers have a much higher expenditure than any other entertainer out there.
But that's just me.
Whoot!! 5 stars from me on that one.
That was a well reasoned and level tempered argument.
I wholely agree with booting AFK people from your group. I hate it when I go into a cantina and ask and ask and ask to join and the leader is afk and has been for a while. Argh!
I think, Sinda, you are correct that people will see the fun in actually being at the key Board interacting with patrons. And to answer the rethorical point about people playing how they want because they pay a monthly fee; So what. You pay the same fee and if you want to boot them or convince others to do the same, Go for it. That is a prime example of the market place of Ideas.
Whether people believe it or not, there are only a few reasons I accept AFK as legit. (we know my position so it does not have to be rehashed here)
Will people quit once they get master?
Well, all of my RL friends have. One got master medic/field medic/doctor so fast that she had no sense of challenge, her husband got frustrated because being a TSA (Melee)was worthless compared to us ranged peps, Another Bounty Hunter did Baz Natch Exploits and lost interest in the game becuase of lack of challenge. And two others, EQ friends not RL friends, (who asked me to come to Intrepid and join a band) have gone back to EQ. So, only my wife and I are still playing. I really enjoy the game.
If you can't succeed in arguing, insult. I like it.
Oh, dear. Geddi-chan has revealed himself to be no better than a thousand other internet flame trolls I've encountered, using the same worn-out condescension (please note spelling) and arrogant preachiness that always succeeds in winning hearts and minds. His secret disdain for anyone else's opinion is cloaked in his obvious pridein himself and his stated position that his approach must be the best because ... well, it's his and he likes to think he's eloquent.
I won't play that game, Geddi. You cast the first stones at me and then become childish when you get the same medicine. Perhaps you feel as though you've scored some magical points on some invisible scoreboard with your petty retorts (as long as they're veiled in thick rhetorical flourishes), but a dead fish still smells like a dead fish even if you wrap it in Shakespeare.
The real shame of it all is that this could have been a productive discussion. I thought that's where it was headed - whether any of us agree or disagree. But I don't suffer fools lightly. Even if they're waving a Thesaurus around. This thread is now officially dead, and you can pat yourself on the back for claiming another thread as a victim of your own self-appointed superiority.