Dancer Archive
Thread: How to deal with AFK Macroers
Sinda: Perhaps you feel as though you've scored some magical points on some invisible scoreboard with your petty retorts
Eljer: I have left the entertainer profession just because I read these boards.
No, I just think that I've done my poor best at detailing some of the other reasons why peoplerevile entertainers. Apparently, I'm not alone in how I feel.
This was a productive discussion, but you really didn't want to let go, so you got personal.
Alright, since your memory needs refreshing, this is the VERY FIRST thing you said to me in this thread:
"Maybe when you stop being so catty towards others,"
Now you want to portray yourself as the injured party here? You reaped what you sowed, Geddi. Deal with it.
Mmm nice context. You asked me if that was what I heard on these boards, and I replied yes. While you are certainly included in this, it was quite clear from thestart that I felt the general attitude towards AFK macroers was cattiness. This, was, before you made this thread about my percieved egotism, the point. Is this a personal attack? Yes, I suppose it is. It's also an attack on this small subset of the Dancer community for which you provide the loudest voice, so you could just as easily not take it personally.
But I don't play the victim well, and I'm not about to start. I could care less other than using the personal attacks to vent some steam and respond in kind. You responded to my first post with a great deal of restraint I see now, and I feel that I did so as well. It was a good discussion. But as soon as I stated my opinion of the matter in ethical and judgemental terms, you lost your head and started to goad me. Oh well. I'll take to both, calm discussion or wanton flaming. What it boils down to is the unanswered question: why disrespect when it costs less in energy to just let go of pointing your fingers at AFK'ers and making them feel guilty? Even your intial post, which was intended, as I understand it, a "kindler, gentler" way to deal with AFKers, spoke loudly that at best these people are ignorant and misinformed on the dangers of AFK macroing.
Deal with it.
With what? Your scorn for me disagreeing with you? I'm dealing quite well, thank you very much. Your attitude towards me really is meaningless. It's your attitude towards a nicely packaged group of players that you feel are below you and aren't worthy of your respect that is the issue here, at least my issue. And I'm not alone in how I feel. Whatever it is that I've sowed bears some fruit, at least.
Geddi-chan wrote:
my decision to delete my Entertainer is now justified to my judgemental mind. I wouldn't want to be associated with a crowd like this.
Your behavior contradicts your stated position.
If you are not an entertainer any more, and you do not want to be associated with a crowd like this, what the heck are you doing posting to the board for this crowd with which you don't want to be associated? Isn't continuing to post here continuing your association with "this crowd?" And if so why even bother to read/post here? Mind you, I'm not saying you can't or shouldn't, in the abstract (I'm NOT telling you "get off our boards!" because I think anyone who plays the game has a right to post here, so don't bother accusing me of that.) I'm just confused as to why someone who has an unabiding distaste for the entertainers in the game, and wants nothing to do with us, would bother to read and post to our forum at all.
Because of that, I have to say that I think I smell an ugly, green, regenerating creature that can only be killed with fire....
BTW, you DO realize, don't you, that the total number of people posting on this forum makes up maybe 1/1000th of the total number of entertainers, so deciding to quit the profession just based on me, Sinda, Velvet-Dancer, and a couple or three other people -- when we really don't represent more than a tiny fraction of the whole -- is rather silly.
C
Geddi-chan wrote:
I've done my poor best at detailing some of the other reasons why peoplerevile entertainers. Apparently, I'm not alone in how I feel.
LOL!
Are you actually saying that all the resentment and lack of respect dancers get is due to those of us who actually play at keyboard being antagonistic toward AFKers? That is just too funny.
Other than in this thread, authored by you, Geddi, I have not once ever seen this indicated anywhere. In game, and on the general forum, I have seen tons of resentment toward entertainers, and every bit of it has been aimed at either (1) tip beggery (which has nothing directly to do with AFK Macroing) or (2) AFK Macroing. The players of other kinds of characters seem to have a lack of respect for us for these two reasons. They, in general, feel that they had to work for their title, at keyboard, 100% of the time, while an AFK Macroer with a dedicated online connection could basically just macro for a month and become a "master." There is a general disdain for achievement that does not come from actual, at-keyboard work, by those who have no choice but to do that. THIS is where some of the resentment comes from (not all, to be sure -- much of it is just from people who think skill = combat, and will never respect a non-combat class no matter what, but again those people do not bear on this discussion).
You're blaming Sinda, Velvet, and others like them, who dislike the AFK Macroing, for the lack of respect, but most players who disrespect dancers disrespect the same people that Velvet and Sinda are complaining about. So that just doesn't fly as a logical argument.
You are welcome to disagree with our collective disdain for the AFK Macroer, but don't try to pretend that that disdain is in any way related to the lack of respect the profession gets from other players, because that just doesn't fit with any of the posts or in-game communications I have had with the other players of this game.
C
Are you actually saying that all the resentment and lack of respect dancers get is due to those of us who actually play at keyboard being antagonistic toward AFKers?
Absolutely not. I quote my second post.
The people that think poorly of those that Entertain are going to think that way regardless of the existance of macros. They'd just find other points to latch on to. Homophobia towards male entertainers (and Dancers in particular), treatment of Entertainers as battle fatigue "bots" (and certainly I'll allow this to be major point of distain towards AFK entertainters, yet, sometimes those bots can be VERY appreciated, like late night/early morning pacific time on a remote planet), or just plain old distain towards "non-combat" professions (which is laughable, since the Entertainer professions go well with combat, especially melee, professions.)
In short, you're speaking of the unenlightened mass of gamers who simply don't care regardless of what Dancers have to do to heal their wounds
This is something that I've been saying the entire thread, Chessack. The problem with Dancers and respect is the fact that they are Dancers. No matter changes about the class, they will always be percieved as having a "carebear" profession. The only thing I have to say about the antagonistic behavior towards AFK macroers is that it doesn't help. And that is, and has been, the only point I've tried to make. The rest of this thread has been Sinda misunderstanding my points regarding increasing Dancer buffs (on which we both agree the mind buffs getting love is a Good Thing), me misunderstanding the circumstances of Velvet's post regarding him booting the AFK'er from his group (yet, I erred on the side of credit towards him), and the ensuing flame war where you call me green and Sinda makes wonderful comments about my package compensation (don't you just love Freud?) and my retorts, which, having re-read them, were fairly nasty. Fun to write though.
You're blaming Sinda, Velvet, and others like them, who dislike the AFK Macroing, for the lack of respect, but most players who disrespect dancers disrespect the same people that Velvet and Sinda are complaining about.
No, I'm accusing them. Yes, it's high handed morality, and I'm not denying this in the slighest. What's reprehensible is that it's perfectly acceptable among the Performer community to call people names like "LAMErs" and feel completely justified in this abject categorization of people. It's hurtful to others and I think it does damage the Dancer reputation. Now, before you reiterate your last question, yes, I do belive the anti-AFKer mentality damagers the perception of Enterterainers; No, I do not believe it is a cause of that dislike, I've stated time and time again. It is an excuse to express that dislike, but a very easy excuse to use, as it affords a very comfortable moral standing, which of couse, I've been accused of time and time again in this thread.
You are welcome to disagree with our collective disdain for the AFK Macroer, but don't try to pretend that that disdain is in any way related to the lack of respect the profession gets from other players, because that just doesn't fit with any of the posts or in-game communications I have had with the other players of this game.
Actually, since nobody was kind enough to ask, at times, I do share your distain. I choose not to express it as vehemetly as you, however. I too was an Entertainer. I macroed once, hated the cheapness of it, and promptly stopped. However, I've never once chided anyone for it, because, like I said, I don't believe the problem will go away. I think that anyone that believes they can stop people as a wholefrom taking any advantage in an onlne RPG that's offered is suffering from delusion. However, I do see great premise in the Entertainer class, which is why I read these forums, when I don't even read the Commando forums and only once a day do I browse the Tarquinas forums. And I do see howimproving the class will help make the Entertainer class more rewarding for players at the keyboard than for those afk, at leastfrom a gameplay perspective (and only from that perspective, I'm not a total powergamer, dispite what you may think, I do appreciate the social aspect).
I do share a lot of your views that you might think I don't. But I don't on the premise of sharing them so aggressively. Call me names, call me a troll, but I state what I believe, and I've done so in a manner that I hope has come across in some way that I know what I'm talking about and not just stringing together common Internet counter-culture phrases or a barely legible tirade of "omfg u suxxorz!" And for this, I get flamed.
Nice.
Geddi-chan wrote:In short, you're speaking of the unenlightened mass of gamers who simply don't care regardless of what Dancers have to do to heal their wounds
Your quotes and colors make it look as if I said this. I didn't bother to look up on the thread because I know I never did. Perhaps YOU said it, but I want it to be perfectly clear to everyone reading this thread that I would never use the word "unenlightened" or speak of the combat-gamers in this way.
Geddi-chan wrote:No, I'm accusing them. Yes, it's high handed morality, and I'm not denying this in the slighest.
Dear Kettle,
You are BLACK.
Signed, Pot.
You're doing exactly what you complain that "we" (or "they" or whoever) are doing. Let's look at this:
Sinda, Velvet, Tiaga, and others accuse AFK Macroers of being a problem. They call them LAME (an acronym, but also, no question about it, also meaning the word "lame" as in "bad form"). Because of this you accuse them of being elitist. Their behavior is "elitist" because they think THEIR way of doing things is better than the AFK Macro-tainers.
So then you come on here and accuse Sinda et al. of being a problem. You call them "elitist" (which is JUST as loaded a term as "lamer"). You agree with their thoughts (that AFK Macroing is a bad idea and tends to hurt the profession), but you think YOUR way of doing things (thinking it and saying nothing, which can be thought of variously as being "polite" or being a "pin cushion") is better than THEIR way of doing things (opening their big mouths, or in this case keyboards, and stating what they think).
How can you get up on your high horse about "elitist" behaviour when you, yourself, are being just as much an elitist. "I am better than you because, while I think what you think, I am too polite to express it." That's basically what you're saying here.
And on top of that, you made very specific and personal attacks on Sinda, who is one of the most eloquent and impressive members of the community. And why? Because she dares to speak her mind and express an opinion different, and therefore (we see now) inferior, to your own? Please.
Forgive me, if I have zero sympathy for your position. I will pre-empt you and do you the curtesy of the same (forgiving you for having zero sympathy with mine, which I am sure is also the case).
C
Your quotes and colors make it look as if I said this.
Cheesack, learn to read. I said, right before I quoted that it was, in fact, quoted from my second post in this thread. I even color coded it for you. Allow me make to elaborate.
Yellow- someone else.
Green- me.
So, in green, meaning, "I said this":
I quote my second post.
Anyone that's reading this threadwould understand this, I hope. It is not, after all, a terribly difficult concept.
but I want it to be perfectly clear to everyone reading this thread that I would never use the word "unenlightened" or speak of the combat-gamers in this way.
First, who said I was speaking of combat-gamers? I said the "unenlightened mass of gamers who..." meaning of course the group of gamers that are grouped by their, in my opnion,unenlightened views. Your flame bait is powerful, but it's rather transparent.
Forgive me, if I have zero sympathy for your position. I will pre-empt you and do you the curtesy of the same (forgiving you for having zero sympathy with mine, which I am sure is also the case).
Actually I do sympathize with your concerns. As I just said above. I don't agree with your methods of dealing with them. What is so difficult about understanding this? However, since you failed to understand that, after I even said, "I quote myself" that I, well, quoted myself, perhaps it is a hard concept. Or, more accurately, you're just trying to get a rise out of me. With either way, I do not sympathize. So forgiveness accepted. Quite honorable.
And on top of that, you made very specific and personal attacks on Sinda, who is one of the most eloquent and impressive members of the community.
What does this have to do with me? Sinda does not hold any sort of special significance to me. And please, spare me the tired arguement that I don't belive any opinion other than mine has no value. That is sloppy thinking of the worst order, even if you do truly believe it. The truth of that matter is how you see it. If you really believe that I hold my opinion over others with no exceptions, nothing I can say will change you of this belief, and we arrivae at an impasse.
I don't offer appologies for my beliefs. I do think the practice of guilting people that use AFK macros is wrong, just as I believe using them to skill up or take away tips and attention from live players is wrong. I do believe that there are other methods, such as making Entertainers more powerful, and giving benefits to live Entertainers will help tremendously. Perhaps this is a judgemental belief. I've admitted that I do feel my opinions are coming a bit heavy handed, let anyone who reads this make no mistake that I am egotistical and judgemental. ButI have not said, "Cheesack, **edit**, your opinions are worth bunk to me", or "Sinda, I'm not listening." You are free to take my opinions as you want, either way doesn't hurt me.
But it makes for great way to kill time.
Everyone else reading this thread, I hope that I've added something to the debate. I might not of, and that's fine, but I've tried.
Geddi-chan wrote:
I do think the practice of guilting people that use AFK macros is wrong
So, the practice of guilting people for behavior 1 (AFK Macroing) is wrong.
But the practice of guitling people for behavior 2 (Guilting people for AFK Macroing) (which is what you are doing) is fine as you see it?
You are doing to Sinda exactly what you accuse her of doing. You say she is judgemental while in the same breath being (and admitting to being) judgemental yourself.
So this means we should bother to listen to you... why? Because your form of judgementalism is somehow superior to hers?
C