Dancer Archive
Thread: How to deal with AFK Macroers
If you don't care if you group with AFK macroers, I urge you to skip reading this thread before you go any further. I don't want to start another inflammatory argument over the ethics or value of AFK Macroing -- this is about how those of us who don't approve of AFKing can deal with those who do AFK Macro most of the time.
The problems I'd like to address are these:
1. Most or many of the AFK Macroers have never considered the possibility that what they are doing is giving the rest of the profession a bad image. They don't read the boards, they don't come here, they haven't heard how the rest of us feel. Their "sin" springs from an innocent ignorance.
2. Many of these AFKers see macroing as an easy way to "get there" - to reach the destination without having to endure the journey. I first saw most of these folks in UOL years ago, standing in their houses at night macroing skills while their owners slept.
3. Those with the idea of solely reaching a goal usually don't stay with their Master skills once they get there. It was too easy to get, and has little real value to them. How they actually play their Dancer is another subject altogether - most of them don't know some of the finer points of playing because they haven't been interacting with other dancers or trying new things.
The one thing I'd like to suggest to all of you is that maybe- MAYBE - we don't have to alienate the AFKers to get them to see the error of their ways. Could it possibly be that we could convince them, gently, that it's more fun to actually stay at the keyboard?
I have never had a problem /kicking long-term AFKers from my groups. When they come back, most of them don't even know why they were kicked and ask to be invited again. If I explain that I'll only keep them in the group if they don't go AFK again and will kick them if they do, a few have agreed. A few have gotten angry or defensive. Their litany of justifications are long. Believe it or not, these are a few excuses I've been handed before:
"I pay my $15 and I can play how I want."
(Yes you do, but when your play style gives the rest of us a bad image, I don't have to group with you. I'm using the privelege my $15 a month buys me to refuse to invite you. Please, just stay at your keyboard and we'd love to have you join us.)
"I have too much homework to do, I need to get Master."
(No, you don't "need" to get Master. But once you finish your homework, come back and join our large group. We'll have some fun and I'll even train you for free.)
"Dancing is too boring to just stand here."
(Perhaps Creature Handler or Bounty Hunter would be more fun for you?)
"I don't need to be here. They get healed and I still get tipped."
(I think you'll find that, if you actually engage the customers in conversation and try to be lively your tips will increase. Pity-tips can't rival the tips I get for putting on a good show and having fun with customers. You have no idea how many customers just walk out without tipping because you're not really there and they don't feel obligated. How could you know? You weren't there to see it.)
"I'm not hurting anybody. It doesn't matter."
(Actually, you are. Read the official SWG boards sometime. Come to the Dancer forum. See howmany other players have no respect for dancers because they think we ALL earn our skills while AFK Macroing and therefore we aren't really playing the game. AFK Macroing is enough of an issue now that SOE is looking at ways to nerf us. It DOES matter.)
"Macros are part of the game."
(Yes they are, and they're great for chaining flourishes or costume changes together. But there are a lot of features in this game that can also be abused and anger fellow players, does that mean we should do them? It boils down to whether you want to play the game or bot it. Games are meant to be played, not automated.)
Maybe I'm being naive but I'd like to think that some of these folks are redeemable, and could even become outstanding additions to our profession. The path to that end is not through macro chains, though, it's through learning from your fellow dancers.
I'm sure most of you have heard your share of justifications for macroing. Do you tend to ignore them, confront them, or try to reason with them? Do you think they can be saved? How do you answer them?
"The one thing I'd like to suggest to all of you is that maybe- MAYBE - we don't have to alienate the AFKers to get them to see the error of their ways. Could it possibly be that we could convince them, gently, that it's more fun to actually stay at the keyboard?"
Talk about being on a pedestal.You cannot force someone to think that your way of playing is more fun than theirs, when will you guys learn this?
Maybe when you stop being so catty towards others, they'll stop and listen to your point of view? There are larger issues for Entertainers/Dancers to address other than image, after all. Falling rates, buff duration, long term health of the class that has a single function all spring to mind.
But in the end it doesn't matter. Dancers & Musicians are always going to be a necessary part of the game, and they flourish in private cantinas where they or the building's owner can set their own rules. If you really care about the profession, get out of the public cantinas and let the AFK dimwits skill up in empty cities or their own houses.
Talk about being on a pedestal.You cannot force someone to think that your way of playing is more fun than theirs, when will you guys learn this?
I'm playing the game - they're taking a nap while macroing. Please tell me how their way of "playing" is more fun -- or better yet, please tell me how they're even playing at all. It's not a pedestal at all, Eljer, it's how I feel, and I feel strongly about it.
Geddi-chan wrote:
Maybe when you stop being so catty towards others, they'll stop and listen to your point of view? There are larger issues for Entertainers/Dancers to address other than image, after all. Falling rates, buff duration, long term health of the class that has a single function all spring to mind.
Who's being catty? Is that what you're hearing? I simply refuse to group with AFK Macroers and consider them a blight on my chosen profession - as is my right. From my own experience, my non-confrontive approach has actually made some of them think about what they're doing - they didn't realize the image they had. Those who knew and didn't care don't deserve my courtesy anyway, and that's exactly what they get.
As for our image, I don't think you grasp the concept here. Dancers are ALL image. Our profession is visual-only, we depend on /tips from customers who usually /tip according to the image we project. We get hired for private gigs based on our image ... how can you sit there and tell me that "there are larger issues than image"?
In comparison to how our profession is perceived, trivia like falling rates and flourishes are inconsequential. And if you've read these boards for at least a week, you know that I've been energetically campaigning to improve our buffs.
But in the end it doesn't matter. Dancers & Musicians are always going to be a necessary part of the game, and they flourish in private cantinas where they or the building's owner can set their own rules. If you really care about the profession, get out of the public cantinas and let the AFK dimwits skill up in empty cities or their own houses.
One, I already play private cantinasinstead ofpublic cantinas. But your near-sighted view on the state of our profession completely ignores the way AFKers in public cantinas end up representing us to the general game public. I'll tell you what I suggested in my original post: Go to the main boards, do a search on "AFK entertainers" and read what some of the other players say about our profession. After you've read your 100th complaint about us ALL being lamers for botting our way to Master and how we don't deserve tips, then come back here and tell me image doesn't matter.
Maybe things are different on your server. I've read of several that have thriving private cantina operations going. On Chilastra, I can name 2 establishments that have managed to keep going - one of them only on Friday and Saturday nights. To my knowledge, there isn't a single one of them that has assumed the role of social center in the game.
If we don't want the cantinas of SWG to end up as empty as the taverns in EQ, things need to change. Much of that change has to come from redesign of the cantinas themselves to make them more workable (including ways for players to tend bar). But much of it is also the fact that they're now overrun with botting zombies who are not playing the game, they're running a macro. They can do the same thing in Word and save themselves $15 a month, but somehow this is supposed to be more fun.
Man. Some pretty good arguments and counter argumenst here.
My ...Whooot 5 stars.... comment was for Sinda. I also say: Whoot. 5 stars ... to the response by Geddi chan. Not the short, semi confrontational one, but the long, well argued one.
hmmmm how can I agree with arguments that disagree?
.... Well, as the White Queen said to Alice
"Alice laughed: "There's no use trying," she said; "one can't believe impossible things."
"I daresay you haven't had much practice," said the Queen. "When I was younger, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast."
Alice in Wonderland.
OOC:
One addition here for the case of masters:
If you're a master, you don't need to join the larger group for experience, but it's likely that a large group of novices would WANT you in the group so that they can gain in experience from people who are watching you. So tell them that you'll only join the group if all AFKers are booted. 
~Player of Nare Ese
Master Dancer, Kettemoor
Geddi-chan wrote:
how can you sit there and tell me that "there are larger issues than image"?
Easily. Your corespondent has labeled your top issue as being the duration and effectiveness of Entertainer mind buffs. You yourself linked that to the Musicians forum and identified it as the Dancer/Musician TOP issue. And it is. Outside of fatigue and wound healing, Dancers and Musicians offer nothing out of the field, and fatigue healing can only be performed in a cantina. Addressing this issue adds considerable depth to the Entertainer classes... suddenly they become very desirable addtition to combat classes and a wonderful companion to a Field Medic on a large hunt.
Geddi, you don't understand that the buffs issue will do a great deal to bolster the tattered image of the Dancer? It STILL goes to image, whether it's mind buffs or kicking AFKers.
After you've read your 100th complaint about us ALL being lamers for botting our way to Master and how we don't deserve tips, then come back here and tell me image doesn't matter.
True, there is that. However, how exactly does that blight your class and YOUR experience as (I would assume) an active and actually entertaining dancer? The people that think poorly of those that Entertain are going to think that way regardless of the existance of macros. They'd just find other points to latch on to.
Perhaps, but not all of them. How do we argue with them right now when they claim that entertainers are the "carebear" class of the game, put into place solely because Holocron has a thing for socialization, and that Battle Fatigue was a stupid, artificial construct whose only purpose was to justify the existence of entertainers? If we get the buffs we're asking for, those arguments are immediately invalidated.
treatment of Entertainers as battle fatigue "bots" (and certainly I'll allow this to be major point of distain towards AFK entertainters, yet, sometimes those bots can be VERY appreciated, like late night/early morning pacific time on a remote planet)
Thank you, I couldn't figure out what you were arguing about
In short, you're speaking of the unenlightened mass of gamers who simply don't care regardless of what Dancers have to do to heal their wounds. Trust me, I got the same treatment at times for being a Bard in Everquest, a class that can NEVER be accused of being lazy at the keyboard.
I, too played a bard in EQ. Apples and oranges.
Yeah, player cities need to be implemented. Let's face it, all but the most well-connected or political NPC cities are going to be ghost towns or simple travel terminals when PC cities are added. Medical centers will be (and are in some large cities) largely abandoned save in PVP hotspots like Theed, Bestine andAnchorhead
Agreed completely on that point. There's speculation that player mounts may just be a few weeks away - what's the holdup on Player Cities?
Who's being catty? Is that what you're hearing?
Yes it is. And it's what drove me away from the Entertainment profession to begin with. Granted, you're going to get a bit of hostility within the family with a bunch of would-be rockstars and divas, but even the EQ Bard community has a degree of civility when dealing with the less-social or less-socially-accepted within their ranks (to name: Swarm Kiters.)
And all this time I thought I was offering non-belligerent methods of getting AFKers to change their ways. Go figure. Maybe I wasn't clear enough, because you've hijacked the thread to being about my "attitude" (and I assure you, my attitude is just fine) when it was intended to be about constructive ways to approach AFKers.
Entertainers are about image, yes. However, you're going to find that there are people that will knock your style of play regardless of what you do to perserve it.
And those aren't the people I've been talking about. I don't think anyone argues with the fact that there are Quake-heads in the game that don't like anything that doesn't have to do with big guns.
In short, get the Entertainer class more powerful first - get the issue of mind buffs resolved, then see how "Ent bots" affect the class. The more tools you have at your disposal, the more you can deny folks that bot (and a powerful tool this is- deny AFK entertainers the ability to buff mind stats and suddenly you have a great desire for active entertainers that can give powerful buffs.)
... which is almost exactly what I've been saying all along. So why are you taking me to task?
And, yes, Annshadow, it IS possible to agree with both Geddi-chan and myself, because I don't think we're disagreeing on principle here. If anything we're probably just disagreeing on how he perceived my post.
I need to find better ways to quote. Maybe this'll work.
If anything we're probably just disagreeing on how he perceived my post.
In a word, yes. However, it's a problem of blame. By making this about AFK folk and not about live Dancers' efforts to distance themselves from the "underwear bots" of the galaxy far, far away, you immediately will be putting yourself in a position to be perceived as being up on a soapbox; making people that use macros to free up for chatting, going to bathroom, going to change the baby's diapers, whatever, feel like in some way that they need to validate their fair use of the macro system. Suddenly you have this case of "well, *I'm* not at fault, I just use it when I need to tinkle" brand of qualification that forces a line to be drawn. Worse yet, it draws the line along ethical grounds, the worse of all debates to resolve.
Geddi, you don't understand that the buffs issue will do a great deal to bolster the tattered image of the Dancer? It STILL goes to image, whether it's mind buffs or kicking AFKers.
It will help. But don't count on it. Buff "dispensers" will always be abused and slighted within the larger community, for those reasons I laid out above. It's a different mode of playing an RPG (and a welcome one), but one that is misunderstood, and therefore, will always be the redheaded stepchild of the combat classes in general, despite, or maybe even because of, their dependance on entertainers.
Look at it this way, do Image Designers get the same level of treatment? No, they don't. They might not often be thought of (and certainly when people say "Entertainers", more often than not they refer to the Performance professions) but they do not receive the tattered image that Performers (and judging by the forums, Dancers in particular) receive. Why? Well you could (and I'm sure you will) make the case that it is because they can not macro their way up to the "top". But rather I conjecture it's a difference in play style. ID's are just another form of support, purely asthetic support, but they still provide a hands-on, personal service to others that garners instantly a smallmeasure of respect.
How do we argue with them right now when they claim that entertainers are the "carebear" class of the game... If we get the buffs we're asking for, those arguments are immediately invalidated.
I, too played a bard in EQ. Apples and oranges.
Not hardly. As a bard, I got more than a few unfriendly comments about being a sissy, or a prissy little toe tapper, or whatever feminine in nature, testoserone-fueled comment you can think of. And as a Bard, I played perhaps one of the most competent and skilled characters in battle. Virtually nobody that grouped with me walked away with a negative comment. I don't like to brag, but this is no idle boast, I was nigh invicible with my Bard, as you canimagine a well-played bard can be. Yet, despite a good reputation, I still suffered those comments (up until Bards got some MEGA love in the later expansions.) Performers will be rediculed,sadly enough. They will always be "the carebear class" by those too stupid to know any better and too dumb to keep their mouths shut about it. This has little to do with AFK macroing, or skinsuits or male dancers. Those are just things to latch on to by someone without understanding.
The point being is ignore the AFK'ers. They're not going to go away without a change to the macro system and I don't think anyone wants that. Think of dancer reputation as a law of averages. The worse and the best meeting somewhere in the middle. If you think that AFK macroers are the worse (and I think that's more than abundantly clear by the stigmatic acronym LAMErs I've seen floating around, for shame) then improve the "best"; which, I do not doubt is your intention, rather your methods I find fault in. As long as there is a stigma towards the "underwear bots" and dare I say it, "LAMErs", you drag yourself down lower than the profession needs to be. Accept the fact that all this accomplishes is to make people feel guilty, and then hostile, as you yourself pointed out in your opening posts.
"If you're a master, you don't need to join the larger group for experience, but it's likely that a large group of novices would WANT you in the group so that they can gain in experience from people who are watching you. So tell them that you'll only join the group if all AFKers are booted."
hehe I've done that, and been told that I'm being 'elitist' for wanting to only group with living players. I've been called rude for having the gall to boot someone whose afk flag popped up-they had a good reason for being AFK and I reinvited her when she came back to keys but she refused (I did apologise too but apparently I was the rude one for not psychically knowing why she'd gone afk without saying anything long enough for the game to flag her AFK). I'm done with AFK people-I just don't dance in the same cantina as bots anymore.
I guess I'll try what you've suggested Sinda, but it'll probably just get me further labelled as an elitist witch. 
Geddi-chan wrote:
In a word, yes. However, it's a problem of blame. By making this about AFK folk and not about live Dancers' efforts to distance themselves from the "underwear bots" of the galaxy far, far away, you immediately will be putting yourself in a position to be perceived as being up on a soapbox; making people that use macros to free up for chatting, going to bathroom, going to change the baby's diapers, whatever, feel like in some way that they need to validate their fair use of the macro system.
I think I would hasten to assure anyone who made those claims that it's not the occasional AFK we're worried about. I doubt most of us can manage a 4-hour session at the computer without having to use the bathroom, answer the phone, or make a sandwich. That's simply misunderstanding what this whole thing is about, and it's easily cleared up.
Suddenly you have this case of "well, *I'm* not at fault, I just use it when I need to tinkle" brand of qualification that forces a line to be drawn. Worse yet, it draws the line along ethical grounds, the worse of all debates to resolve.
I'm not afraid of ethical issues. If an action does harm to someone else - whether intangible or indirect - then it becomes an ethics question. Maybe it's just me, but I tend to tackle ethics questions headlong -- especially when I'm the aggrieved.
It will help. But don't count on it. Buff "dispensers" will always be abused and slighted within the larger community, for those reasons I laid out above. It's a different mode of playing an RPG (and a welcome one), but one that is misunderstood, and therefore, will always be the redheaded stepchild of the combat classes in general, despite, or maybe even because of, their dependance on entertainers.
I'm not sure why this is an issue. The buff enhancement isn't supposed to be the ideal, perfect fix for 100% of our problems. It has never been promoted as such. But anything that helps is something we need, I think you'll agree. EQ Clerics were one of the most-sought-after classes for groups, yet they too had their share of abuse. So? The point is they offered something desirable to the other players. What exactly do Dancers offer, beyond healing that mystical, vague thing called "Battle Fatigue"?
There's another aspect which I think you're missing. That is the feeling of the dancers ourselves - speaking from my own heart, here - that our role in the game becomes eye candy or cybersex partner at some point. I want more than that. I want to feel that I have abilities I can offer my group, other players, my PA, that really make a difference in their enjoyment of the game. Our influence on that aspect right now is very slim, but I think enhanced buffs will give us another point in which to take pride in our profession. And that's the real issue - pride of profession.
Look at it this way, do Image Designers get the same level of treatment? No, they don't. They might not often be thought of (and certainly when people say "Entertainers", more often than not they refer to the Performance professions) but they do not receive the tattered image that Performers (and judging by the forums, Dancers in particular) receive. Why? Well you could (and I'm sure you will) make the case that it is because they can not macro their way up to the "top". But rather I conjecture it's a difference in play style. ID's are just another form of support, purely asthetic support, but they still provide a hands-on, personal service to others that garners instantly a smallmeasure of respect.
Most of the Image Designers I know took it as an adjunct to other skills,usually some form of entertainer. On the other hand, there is a sizable percentage of Dancers who are just that - Dancers. We're more visible than IDs in the cantinas, we are the ones the players focus on, sometimes even more than the musicians, because we're in front and we're moving around. IDs are almost the "invisible profession" of SWG, but we can't say that. Our image matters mightily.
Not hardly. As a bard, I got more than a few unfriendly comments about being a sissy, or a prissy little toe tapper, or whatever feminine in nature, testoserone-fueled comment you can think of. And as a Bard, I played perhaps one of the most competent and skilled characters in battle.
One of the very best EQ players I ever knew was a bard, and he had absolutely no problems with respect -- why? If he wasn't recovering corpses, he was lulling and pulling or charming mobs or singing to boost mana regen. He proved his value over and over in our hunting groups -- so when I say "apples and oranges", I mean just that. You won't see most of us using our performance skills in the field of battle. Although I'd love the ability to charm a mob by shaking my hips, I'm not going to hold my breath for it
The point being is ignore the AFK'ers. They're not going to go away without a change to the macro system and I don't think anyone wants that.
I wouldn't care so much if other players could ALSO ignore AFKers. But they don't. AFKers are a cheap excuse not to tip; they're driving other dancers away and turning cantinas into robot museums where the only conversation is between tip-spamming macros.
I don't think they need to change the macro system. I think the simplest solution is to detect when a player hasn't touched their keyboard for, say, 2 minutes, and at that point start a timer that prevents the user from getting any XP until they touch their keyboard again or the system automatically logs them out. No more macroing while you sleep.
Think of dancer reputation as a law of averages. The worse and the best meeting somewhere in the middle. If you think that AFK macroers are the worse (and I think that's more than abundantly clear by the stigmatic acronym LAMErs I've seen floating around, for shame) then improve the "best"; which, I do not doubt is your intention, rather your methods I find fault in.
Now who's on the podium preaching? Frankly, I have no respect at all for long-time AFK macroers, and they deserve the sort of disrespect they get with terms like "LAMERs". In fact, I could come up with much worse acronyms given enough time and motivation.
So if you really fault my methods, put aside your Roget's for a moment and get back to my original point: What is the best way to handle AFKers and try to redeem them back into the active, participatory activity we call "playing the game"? You got lost on a long digression and my point has disappeared in the smoke.
I have started doing about that actually, when I join a group I will try and get everybody talking and having fun even in group chat. And if I keep talking to the customers and make them interact with me the other dancers and musicians that was stood quietly will start to talk too, eventually. And I will make it clear that I don't like people being AFK for a long time, and that I can leave the group if they would rather have the AFK er still in it instead of me. Does that make me sound snobby? Maybe it does but I don't really care, I think everybody knows that AFK is wrong, no matter what excuses they come up with to justify it.
I am just happy to see the players in my group having fun together, that makes the people coming to thecantina have fun too. I do however feel abit silly when they ask me if it's okay to go to the shop.. I wouldn't mind AFK at all, but the fact is that someone will always ruin a good thing by taking advantage of it. And that is what happened here.
I guess I should just say it. "Hello, my name is Chessack. And I am an elitist."
There, now you don't have to label me; I labelled myself. :-)
C