Dancer Archive
Thread: With wounds going away in the CU...
Panthu
Sat Mar 19, 2005 12:24 pm
#14
I'm sorry you aren't looking forward to the changes. I don't think you have understood anything I've said about the CU or the other recent changes. Please stop addressing me personally like this. It's starting to creep me out a little. Maybe we just aren't understanding each other very well, or maybe we just don't agree. I don't know, but I do know this is making me uncomfortable so let's please stop.
LyteFoot wrote:
Then there are the mixed templates like mine. I enjoy both PvE and entertaining. With the requirement for an additional tree in brawler I will have a very hard time keeping master ent and master musician so now I'm nerfed because I either I can't play all instruments and songs or I can't master a combat profession. I enjoy playing them all. They are nerfing all the healing classes so there is no source of income and no significant need. Just exactly what are people supposed to do if they don't want to have a combat skill? I don't know about you but I didn't buy Planetside and these changes are clearly turning this into an FPS. So the dancers will be able to just dance with no worries or concerns about the combat professions, they just won't be able to amass enough money to get out of those desert crawlers.
Oki?
Panthu
Sat Mar 19, 2005 1:16 pm
#15
Va-Mei wrote:
Actually, in group PvP my guild has started using fatigue to win battles.Using my high wound 'zerker I can hand you over90 BF a minute.We'vetaken to going out of our way to hand a LOAD of bf to docs, CMs & anyone that seems to use heals a bit more than we'd like. With 3 rifleman using area attacks to hammer on BF for 60 seconds, we can basicly shut down all of the enemies healing in an entire area. You'd be surprised how fastthe tide of a battle turns whenthe BF on their tanks hits 250.
BF also seems to multiply the effect of dots. When our CM starts stacking thechems after we lay out the BF, peoples hams start falling real fast and their healers can't keep up through the BF.
A load of BF is also good for slowing down the zerg swarms. They either get to spend some quality time with an entertainer or 2 before they can re-buff, or return to the fight with understrenght buffs on top of a full stomache.
I don't think this is going to be allowed any more. I think the intention is to make Entertainer not be a needed step for combat play. I don't know though, the way it's been worded makes me think there may have been some more recent changes to the Entertainer ideas post-CU.
Even at the summit though, they told us that BF was meant to be really slow attrition. Like, a player should only need to heal BF once every two weeks. They were going to make all wounds slow attrition as well, I think the goal was to need wound healing every two days.... but, pretty much everything from the summit has been thrown out and redone so take that with a grain of salt.
I'm expecting BF to be turned into a sort of "happy BF" kind of thing that actually works as a small rested bonus, but that could be totally off. I don't think they are going to take Ents and Cantinas to zero use what so ever though, so, I'm sure Cantinas (and Ents through them) will still be doing something minor for others that will bring people back into the cities. They'll just have to come a lot less often now or only when they need the new "minor buffs" we will give for special occasions.
I've been frustrated with the "you heal but you aren't Healers" thing for a long time. Who knows, maybe this will be better if it makes us understand where we fit in better. *crosses fingers*
Neevah_ofValcyn
Sat Mar 19, 2005 3:32 pm
#16
I will always be happy for any design change that allows Dancer to make more sense and be in a better position to ask for updates and fixes. Whether the Devs want us to be Healers, Fluff, or Bards, I want us to be able to do it well and have a commitment from the Dev team for our design.
---------------------------------------------
We've been asking for 2 years, wake up. They didn't even commit to saying they would change the entertainers in any effective way in their CURB announcement. You love the Dev team so much, dance for them. Just remember they'll only get a 10-20% buff for watching. And it's not about effectiveness in combat, it's about use in the game in general. Dancer is now the same as musician is now the same as ID, total fluff.
---------------------------------------------------
I'm not the Dancer Corr now though. I knew the CU was coming. I knew changes for Ents were coming. I decided someone else was better suited to handle that phase of our development that could go in to work with the Devs with a fresh out look. I stepped down. Deila came in. End of story.
-----------------------------------------------
Which means I got off that sinking ship as soon as possible.
DanceRulez
Sat Mar 19, 2005 4:37 pm
#17
Woah woah woah. What's going on here gang? Even if you disagree with Panthu's opinions, that's no reason for the personal attacks. Panthu is not designing the game, nor are decisions being made solely on her input. She's not even a correspondent anymore so she's no longer an official representative to the devs. If you've got a problem with the direction of Entertainer you should let Deila know or perhaps contact the devs directly. They're the ones making the decisions and the changes here.
It's ok if Panthu has her own views on the entertainer profession, and it's ok to debate differing view here, but it's not fair to turn them into personal attacks - especially among ourselves, and especially not someone who gave her own time to try to help out dancers and entertainers by attempting to relay the concerns of *all* of us here to the devs.
Ultimately the success or failure of the Ent. professions is going to be on the shoulders of the devs and the decisions they make. All the correspondents can do and all they have tried to do is to represent the opinions of the rest of us the best that they can, and I wouldn't fault any of our fine DC's for not trying their best in that regard.
It's ok if Panthu has her own views on the entertainer profession, and it's ok to debate differing view here, but it's not fair to turn them into personal attacks - especially among ourselves, and especially not someone who gave her own time to try to help out dancers and entertainers by attempting to relay the concerns of *all* of us here to the devs.
Ultimately the success or failure of the Ent. professions is going to be on the shoulders of the devs and the decisions they make. All the correspondents can do and all they have tried to do is to represent the opinions of the rest of us the best that they can, and I wouldn't fault any of our fine DC's for not trying their best in that regard.
DarkY0da
Sat Mar 19, 2005 4:53 pm
#18
Darn it where are my stars at... /sniffle I'm going to miss giving out 3-5 *s based on a posts content.(well and also the 1 *s to bot posts...)
Panthu
Sat Mar 19, 2005 5:21 pm
#19
DanceRulez wrote:
Woah woah woah. What's going on here gang? Even if you disagree with Panthu's opinions, that's no reason for the personal attacks. Panthu is not designing the game, nor are decisions being made solely on her input. She's not even a correspondent anymore so she's no longer an official representative to the devs. If you've got a problem with the direction of Entertainer you should let Deila know or perhaps contact the devs directly. They're the ones making the decisions and the changes here.
It's ok if Panthu has her own views on the entertainer profession, and it's ok to debate differing view here, but it's not fair to turn them into personal attacks - especially among ourselves, and especially not someone who gave her own time to try to help out dancers and entertainers by attempting to relay the concerns of *all* of us here to the devs.
Ultimately the success or failure of the Ent. professions is going to be on the shoulders of the devs and the decisions they make. All the correspondents can do and all they have tried to do is to represent the opinions of the rest of us the best that they can, and I wouldn't fault any of our fine DC's for not trying their best in that regard.
Thanks, Shi'ann. I of course agree with you andthinkthat all of that is true. It was really nice of you to stick up for me, thanks. I just noticed, I am the only Ent glowie that has ventured an opinion on any of this so far and even the current Corrs are taking their time to respond. I guess I should have done the same.
I've just never felt like I wasn't a part of this community before and not entitled to my own opinion as a player. I guess anything I say right now is going to be taken as something more than it really is, so, I guess I'll just not talk about this out here either. I'll talk about it in the CU forums when we test and I'll talk about it out here when it's on live. Till then, I guess I'll just keep my opinions to myself. 
No biggie, everybody needs an Entforum break every now and then I guess. I'll just go post in other forums for a while if I feel the need to talk about the game on a board. 
kirah_ashlin
Sat Mar 19, 2005 6:35 pm
#20
/hug Panthu
/target everyone who is attacking her out of misplaced anger
/flashes TK Knucklers
BACK OFF!!!!!!!
Enough is enough! Pan is NOT the problem here. Be angry with whatever real or perceived changes may or may not be on our horizon as much as you feel you need to be, but knock off the personal vendetta against Panthu. Don't let her happy-go-lucky, ditzy behavior fool you - Pan is a savvy techie type who know of what she speaks. She is not the enemy and you are doing your own stance more harm than good by trying to make her look like she's one of "them" instead of one of "us".
Don't get me angry . . . you wouldn't like to see me angry . . .
PoetDancer
Sun Mar 20, 2005 12:49 am
#21
Mariki wrote:
reinbursement of skill points, no, reinbursement of all the friggin time it took to grind that tree, thats what I want.
I have been told that this is a good remark to use when I agree with something very much:
QFE
And also, since I can't give it anymore:
*****
Chessack
Sun Mar 20, 2005 1:09 am
#22
Mariki wrote:reinbursement of skill points, no, reinbursement of all the friggin time it took to grind that tree, thats what I want.
/agree
C
Chessack
Sun Mar 20, 2005 10:26 am
#24
Oh my... I think for the first time I am going to have to mildly disagree with PoetD... I am not sure that has ever happened before...
The problem here is how long is this going to take. How long, with no mind wounds, am I going to be stuck with an entire skill line, at the exorbitant cost of 14 skill points, that does nothing? Basically this is equivalent (literally) to making the "master dancer" box cost several hundred thousand healing XP and 15 skill points. No other profession in the game has to pay 15 skill points to master. Why should we? And what really makes it irritating is that there is no indication the devs have even thought about this other than saying (duh) "Well obviously after the combat stuff is done dancers may have to be tweaked." TWEAKED?! An entire skill line has to be changed -- that's a major alteration, not a "tweak." As someone on the more general thread said, in defense of dancers, "If you could only do 3 things in the game and 2 of them were taken away you'd be pretty upset too." They've taken mind wounds out, which means roughly 1/2 of all our XP sources are going away. What have they done to compensate? If nothing, it is going to take all that much longer to master our profession.
That's fine... I am happy to lose mind buffing. I never do it anyway.
This is the part I mildly disagree with. Where is your evidence for this? If they take away half our XP sources (mind wounds) and don't change how XP is given out by healing BF (there is no indication they have) or how many XP it takes to master (again, no indication they have) or the # of boxes you need of healing XP to master (again, no indication they have), it will take even longer and be even more of a grind to get those healing XP boxes (which are already ridiculously hard to get at-keyboard). How is getting XP at an even slower rate, live, going to discourage unattended game play? Don't pretend that AFK macroing was caused by the possibility of tip-earning buff-buts. It wasn't. It was a problem long, long before mind buffing showed up. Back when Sinda Blackstar was ASKING for mind buffs she was also complaining about AFK macroers (and hoping that buffing would encourage at-keyboard play, until we found out that it could be done AFK as easy as healing could). Because earning XP, especially healing XP, as a dancer takes so long, and because all you have to do it is a base dance with no flourishes at all, you will continue to have people, if nothing else, just turning on their base dance and walking away for hours at a time. We may get rid of AFK Macroers (since people will get their knowledge boxes way before their healing ones now, with less healing XP to be had) but they'll still be AFKing... just not flourishing (since they don't need to). They will still have "watch me for XP" spam macros, and the like. We had them long before mind buffing was a viable way to make a living, because people wanted to "be a master" and they faced the choice of (1) working for it or (2) not working for it, and most of them (which is why our acronym for them is LAME) chose 2, proving Mu's old adage, "You can always count on players to find the shortest path to the cheese" ("the cheese" being a noun form of "cheesy behavior").
Taking mind buffing and mind healing out of the game will NOT get rid of AFK performers. It will get rid of buffbots. But at least in Coronet on my server, there's only one buffbot (Ionic Storm) anyway... the rest of the LAMErs in there are just on mindless macros to gain xp -- XP they want/need for Jedi Healing XP because it is easier to get than any other type (I know this because, shamefully, a member of my own guild is a LAMEr for just this reason).
No, PoetD, AFKing is not going away. Buff-botting may go away. It will be there as long as players can AFK, and there is no indication of when, or if, they are ever actually going to change the AFK rules.
We may have to fight like this but we shouldn't have to. Everyone here needs to remember that we did not force the devs to put entertainment in the game. I am sick of being treated like I should apologize for the profession they gave me the option of playing, because they no longer want to have to deal with it in the appropriate way and don't want to be bothered with trying to actually make 4 professions in their own game work the way they were supposed to work in the first place.
This feels very much like being in an abusive relationship. We keep getting bludgeoned and keep trying to "reach out" and "reason" with the person beating the crap out of us every couple of weeks. Should we be thankful for every day we don't get beaten because, well, we could have been beaten that day after all?
C
PoetDancer wrote:
It was very clearley indicated that the non-combat professions were going to get a revamp too. That should give everyone here some hope. We aren't done yet. Not by a long shot.
The problem here is how long is this going to take. How long, with no mind wounds, am I going to be stuck with an entire skill line, at the exorbitant cost of 14 skill points, that does nothing? Basically this is equivalent (literally) to making the "master dancer" box cost several hundred thousand healing XP and 15 skill points. No other profession in the game has to pay 15 skill points to master. Why should we? And what really makes it irritating is that there is no indication the devs have even thought about this other than saying (duh) "Well obviously after the combat stuff is done dancers may have to be tweaked." TWEAKED?! An entire skill line has to be changed -- that's a major alteration, not a "tweak." As someone on the more general thread said, in defense of dancers, "If you could only do 3 things in the game and 2 of them were taken away you'd be pretty upset too." They've taken mind wounds out, which means roughly 1/2 of all our XP sources are going away. What have they done to compensate? If nothing, it is going to take all that much longer to master our profession.
PoetDancer wrote:
Frankly, after seeing all the threads concerning taking our buffing abilities, or all the headaches around it, surrounding it, and adding to the buffbot problems, it simply wasn't working out for us.
That's fine... I am happy to lose mind buffing. I never do it anyway.
PoetDancer wrote:
We still have a game. There was a time that I thought we wouldn't. And in fact it will be a game that will cater to our strengths as live performers. And if we do not feel it is important, check on the B&E forum where I have been spending a lot of time. We are actually making some headway there concerning the problems unattendence causes, what it is caused by, and how we can find a way out. But it will take effort. And the effort starts with doing the important functions we have with zest, zeal, and optimism.No more mind buffs means no more buffbots. We will simply have the occasional LAMer.
This is the part I mildly disagree with. Where is your evidence for this? If they take away half our XP sources (mind wounds) and don't change how XP is given out by healing BF (there is no indication they have) or how many XP it takes to master (again, no indication they have) or the # of boxes you need of healing XP to master (again, no indication they have), it will take even longer and be even more of a grind to get those healing XP boxes (which are already ridiculously hard to get at-keyboard). How is getting XP at an even slower rate, live, going to discourage unattended game play? Don't pretend that AFK macroing was caused by the possibility of tip-earning buff-buts. It wasn't. It was a problem long, long before mind buffing showed up. Back when Sinda Blackstar was ASKING for mind buffs she was also complaining about AFK macroers (and hoping that buffing would encourage at-keyboard play, until we found out that it could be done AFK as easy as healing could). Because earning XP, especially healing XP, as a dancer takes so long, and because all you have to do it is a base dance with no flourishes at all, you will continue to have people, if nothing else, just turning on their base dance and walking away for hours at a time. We may get rid of AFK Macroers (since people will get their knowledge boxes way before their healing ones now, with less healing XP to be had) but they'll still be AFKing... just not flourishing (since they don't need to). They will still have "watch me for XP" spam macros, and the like. We had them long before mind buffing was a viable way to make a living, because people wanted to "be a master" and they faced the choice of (1) working for it or (2) not working for it, and most of them (which is why our acronym for them is LAME) chose 2, proving Mu's old adage, "You can always count on players to find the shortest path to the cheese" ("the cheese" being a noun form of "cheesy behavior").
Taking mind buffing and mind healing out of the game will NOT get rid of AFK performers. It will get rid of buffbots. But at least in Coronet on my server, there's only one buffbot (Ionic Storm) anyway... the rest of the LAMErs in there are just on mindless macros to gain xp -- XP they want/need for Jedi Healing XP because it is easier to get than any other type (I know this because, shamefully, a member of my own guild is a LAMEr for just this reason).
No, PoetD, AFKing is not going away. Buff-botting may go away. It will be there as long as players can AFK, and there is no indication of when, or if, they are ever actually going to change the AFK rules.
PoetDancer wrote:
We can win on getting something for us, but only if we try, reach out, and push like I know we all can.
We may have to fight like this but we shouldn't have to. Everyone here needs to remember that we did not force the devs to put entertainment in the game. I am sick of being treated like I should apologize for the profession they gave me the option of playing, because they no longer want to have to deal with it in the appropriate way and don't want to be bothered with trying to actually make 4 professions in their own game work the way they were supposed to work in the first place.
This feels very much like being in an abusive relationship. We keep getting bludgeoned and keep trying to "reach out" and "reason" with the person beating the crap out of us every couple of weeks. Should we be thankful for every day we don't get beaten because, well, we could have been beaten that day after all?
C
kirah_ashlin
Sun Mar 20, 2005 10:45 am
#25
Not to be nitpicky about an example, but while we might be "enablers" and we might be "co-dependent" we are not victims of abuse. That is a distinction that anyone who has experienced will strongly uphold.
Chessack wrote:
This feels very much like being in an abusive relationship. We keep getting bludgeoned and keep trying to "reach out" and "reason" with the person beating the crap out of us every couple of weeks. Should we be thankful for every day we don't get beaten because, well, we could have been beaten that day after all?
C
Else-Whira
Sun Mar 20, 2005 11:13 am
#26
Chessack... I could almost hear the world's smallest violin playing the world's saddest song when I read your post. Don't over dramatize or anything. 
Seriously though.. I think everyone is going nuts here. The CU isn't even in beta yet for crying out loud. We have people actuvely testing the CU changes for the dancer community don't we? They are the ones who should be making sure that we still have a viable game to play post CU release. If our place in the food chain has been completely removed it is their responsibility to make the appropriate arguments in the CU forums. Hopefully when the CU beta is started more of us can test the changes and offer suggestions as to what content/skill modifications we might truly need.
If we don't have active CU alpha testers... Can we please have some people that WILL actively test/make comments let in?
Seriously though.. I think everyone is going nuts here. The CU isn't even in beta yet for crying out loud. We have people actuvely testing the CU changes for the dancer community don't we? They are the ones who should be making sure that we still have a viable game to play post CU release. If our place in the food chain has been completely removed it is their responsibility to make the appropriate arguments in the CU forums. Hopefully when the CU beta is started more of us can test the changes and offer suggestions as to what content/skill modifications we might truly need.
If we don't have active CU alpha testers... Can we please have some people that WILL actively test/make comments let in?