Dancer Archive
Thread: Proposal for Fame System / Entertainer Game Content
Dlure
Tue Aug 03, 2004 3:05 am
#14
A most excellent post. I would love to see something like this added to the game. I agree with your comment on when it would happen, as there is already big releases coming down the pipe. Very detailed, liked what I read, was very understandable; at least to me; and I say kudos!!
Tiaga
Tue Aug 03, 2004 4:38 am
#15
On risk vs reward....
What is combat risk, really? It's a risk of death or not completing the mission.
Obviously, with a few exceptions (Jabba's?) entertainers don't risk death.. Perhaps it might work in some situations for really high paying missions, but in general I don't think we should be killing entertainers.
If you break down what the risk is to fighters, it comes in two things. First, they have to clone. That means they may get wounds they need to go spend time to heal, may have to spend time travelling to meet their group, will need to insure their items again and spend time earning their money back.. Not to mention the time spent in the failed attempt to begin with.
See a common theme here? It all comes down to time. And really, that's the way it should be. Time is the universal asset that can be converted to nearly anything else, if done right.
This failure penalty already exists in the theater manager quests. If you fail a performance, you can't try again for 24 hours.
With introducing the concept of fame, you have another possibility... Loss of fame points. Give some meat to the higher missions, but make them have a bite to match.
What is combat risk, really? It's a risk of death or not completing the mission.
Obviously, with a few exceptions (Jabba's?) entertainers don't risk death.. Perhaps it might work in some situations for really high paying missions, but in general I don't think we should be killing entertainers.
If you break down what the risk is to fighters, it comes in two things. First, they have to clone. That means they may get wounds they need to go spend time to heal, may have to spend time travelling to meet their group, will need to insure their items again and spend time earning their money back.. Not to mention the time spent in the failed attempt to begin with.
See a common theme here? It all comes down to time. And really, that's the way it should be. Time is the universal asset that can be converted to nearly anything else, if done right.
This failure penalty already exists in the theater manager quests. If you fail a performance, you can't try again for 24 hours.
With introducing the concept of fame, you have another possibility... Loss of fame points. Give some meat to the higher missions, but make them have a bite to match.
Tiaga
Tue Aug 03, 2004 4:50 am
#16
Since you liken this to faction points, I thought I might point something out...
What are faction points used for? To buy faction perks. And what are faction perks used for? Typically one of two things. Either they are used as tools to be able to get more faction points, or they are used in PvP.
So then that begs the question.. Does PvP have to mean combat? Can there be entertainer PvP?
I'm not sure I know the answer, or what entertainer PvP would be.. But the reason I bring it up is from a discussion with one of the other corrs. They pointed out that the most social aspect of the game was PvP. Gaining most types of xp happens solo a lot of the time, entertainers are (Currently) done mostly soulless, crafters generally work on their own to make their great products... Yet all these people who spend so much time working alone band together to defend a base, or to raid a stronghold.
I've seen it myself. I was visiting another server over the weekend to attend an RP/PvP event. PvP isn't typically my thing but I felt like a break from the normal. I never saw everyone there, but by some accounts, there were around 800 people who showed up. (Yes, it crashed the server.) The big guilds sent squadrons of their members in. Others formed up into groups. And everyone worked together. There were armies of stormtroopers and rebels.
That is, admittedly, on the extreme side and probably the largest event the game has ever seen. Even normal PvP raids, however, can be as big as some entertainer planned events. Truth be told, the biggest event I've ever attended as an entertainer was a party thrown by one of the server's biggest PvP guilds.
I'm not entirely sure how this could be applied to entertainers, but it is something to consider, especially given the analogy you are drawing between fame and faction points.
What are faction points used for? To buy faction perks. And what are faction perks used for? Typically one of two things. Either they are used as tools to be able to get more faction points, or they are used in PvP.
So then that begs the question.. Does PvP have to mean combat? Can there be entertainer PvP?
I'm not sure I know the answer, or what entertainer PvP would be.. But the reason I bring it up is from a discussion with one of the other corrs. They pointed out that the most social aspect of the game was PvP. Gaining most types of xp happens solo a lot of the time, entertainers are (Currently) done mostly soulless, crafters generally work on their own to make their great products... Yet all these people who spend so much time working alone band together to defend a base, or to raid a stronghold.
I've seen it myself. I was visiting another server over the weekend to attend an RP/PvP event. PvP isn't typically my thing but I felt like a break from the normal. I never saw everyone there, but by some accounts, there were around 800 people who showed up. (Yes, it crashed the server.) The big guilds sent squadrons of their members in. Others formed up into groups. And everyone worked together. There were armies of stormtroopers and rebels.
That is, admittedly, on the extreme side and probably the largest event the game has ever seen. Even normal PvP raids, however, can be as big as some entertainer planned events. Truth be told, the biggest event I've ever attended as an entertainer was a party thrown by one of the server's biggest PvP guilds.
I'm not entirely sure how this could be applied to entertainers, but it is something to consider, especially given the analogy you are drawing between fame and faction points.
picklesSW
Tue Aug 03, 2004 4:53 am
#17
The concept of fame has been bandied around for a long time, and I've always liked it. Problem is, you're talking about a lot of coding and effort on the part of the devs, and thus I place discussions such as this under the "likely never to be implemented" column. Which, for me, makes this a purely hypothetical discussion.
However, such discussions are good to have, it's fun to dream.
My one comment on this entire thing is that 'fame' should not be judged based on NPCs and missions given out at terminals. A truly famous entertainer is one who is known by players. Someone going and doing a bunch of missions like this isn't even necessarily being social, never mind getting famous in any way but in their own mind.
I have always loved the idea of a fame system, especially one similar to the faction system, with appropriate rewards and such. But I want it to be player driven. I want other players to hire entertainers or bands and have those entertainers be rewarded with fame points. I like the idea of players being able to pick a 'favorite' entertainer, and when watching that favorite heal a bit faster, and the more people who have an ent on their 'favorite' list, the more fame they get. I like the idea of entertainers being able to choose other entertainers that are their idols/mentors, thus increasing their fame. The event team could also hand out 'fame' points instead of badges to entertainers.
The last thing I want to see is a system of rewards placed into the game for entertaines that has us all grinding missions in far flung places away from the social atmospheres we enjoy. If we're to have fame in this game, please let it be driven by players, not NPCs.
However, such discussions are good to have, it's fun to dream.
My one comment on this entire thing is that 'fame' should not be judged based on NPCs and missions given out at terminals. A truly famous entertainer is one who is known by players. Someone going and doing a bunch of missions like this isn't even necessarily being social, never mind getting famous in any way but in their own mind.
I have always loved the idea of a fame system, especially one similar to the faction system, with appropriate rewards and such. But I want it to be player driven. I want other players to hire entertainers or bands and have those entertainers be rewarded with fame points. I like the idea of players being able to pick a 'favorite' entertainer, and when watching that favorite heal a bit faster, and the more people who have an ent on their 'favorite' list, the more fame they get. I like the idea of entertainers being able to choose other entertainers that are their idols/mentors, thus increasing their fame. The event team could also hand out 'fame' points instead of badges to entertainers.
The last thing I want to see is a system of rewards placed into the game for entertaines that has us all grinding missions in far flung places away from the social atmospheres we enjoy. If we're to have fame in this game, please let it be driven by players, not NPCs.
Xyrdre
Tue Aug 03, 2004 5:03 am
#18
Tiaga wrote:
With introducing the concept of fame, you have another possibility... Loss of fame points. Give some meat to the higher missions, but make them have a bite to match.
Some loss of Fame points for failing a gig mission makes sense in-character (you did a show that went over badly). And, may well be the static balancing for a faction (Fame) that has no directly opposing force (i.e., Imperial vs. Rebel). On the other hand, using the GCW factions as amodel, there isno direct parallel - if you fail a faction terminal mission (by death, aborting the mission, etc.) there is no corresponding loss of faction, though in-character rationales could be applied (i.e., you, as an operative, promised the Empire that you would take out the Rebel Communications base... and failed them). The real question then, I think, is whether it is more fun to have Fame loss as a penalty for failure, or simply not gaining any new status.
It's a good thing to keep in mind though, and really would likely be more dependent on other factors in a more specifically designed system.
More exact concepts and numbers could be developed once more detail was specified. In my pastgame design work, I like to start by defining parameter variables, and then set reward/loss conditions after that. I would begin by categorizing difficulties of gig missions into what sorts of things were required to successfully complete them as you progressed upwards through the chain. Seeing that progression of skills, execution, and group composition required, I would then have a better framework to start looking at specific fame reward and credits payout amounts, or losses for failure to complete. Also, defining the overall Fame point costs of Rating progression and toy costs (at least as a starting benchmark), you can then tailor payouts based on how long you'd like players to be involved with the system. In a tabletop RPG, a good GM awards experience points to playersbased on the speed at which they'd like the game to proceed. This is no different here.
Another consideration that I've just had is that in closely matching a "real world" premise to an in-game system, we'd have to consider that if one stopped performing within the Fame system that gradually your Fame would slip... the fickle public begins to forget you. However, I do think that this level of real-world parallel starts to bog down the system, and whereas may be more realistic, it's not necessarily more fun. That would be my basis of justification for not including Fame losses for failed gig missions, should that make sense in the bigger picture of, once again, a more specifically designed Fame system.
Yes, my proposal here is a monster long document about a concept, but it is really little more than an outline. There are still a lot of moving parts to consider, and room for evolution and fine-tuning to make it a more interesting and fun bit of content.
ArgentWulf
Tue Aug 03, 2004 5:04 am
#19
There are some VERY nice ideas there Mistress DDPT. I really like the invisible backpack, I'd give myforehorn for one of those.
I think the systemwould bequite immersive. I have never thought of myself as a star or diva but, that wouldn't stop me from letting some NPC's think of me in such a light. 
EXCELLENTpost Deila! 
picklesSW
Tue Aug 03, 2004 5:06 am
#20
Just a few notes on the rewards.
The clothing schematics...a better way is to allow tailors free access to those schematics and place fame restrictions on the resulting clothing. For example, let them make a Spectacular Scintillating Thong, but noone can wear it unless they're fame level 3. Why do I say this? Because tailors already hate being considered a 'crafting slave'. They don't want you bringing them schematics they can only use once, they just want to make you great clothing. This way you also make sure that people don't spend their fame points to outfit their alt combat character.
Other reward ideas, while we're dreaming:
Allow people of a certain fame level to register with their name at a cantina. Double-clicking a cantina in the map would open up a list of actual entertainer names of a certain fame level at that location, in order of fame (most famous at the top).
Body particle effects similar to the ID effects (but different and unique to entertainers) could be purchased and used.
Special furniture appropriate to cantinas could be made available. I would especially like to see colored spotlights and such.
The clothing schematics...a better way is to allow tailors free access to those schematics and place fame restrictions on the resulting clothing. For example, let them make a Spectacular Scintillating Thong, but noone can wear it unless they're fame level 3. Why do I say this? Because tailors already hate being considered a 'crafting slave'. They don't want you bringing them schematics they can only use once, they just want to make you great clothing. This way you also make sure that people don't spend their fame points to outfit their alt combat character.
Other reward ideas, while we're dreaming:
Allow people of a certain fame level to register with their name at a cantina. Double-clicking a cantina in the map would open up a list of actual entertainer names of a certain fame level at that location, in order of fame (most famous at the top).
Body particle effects similar to the ID effects (but different and unique to entertainers) could be purchased and used.
Special furniture appropriate to cantinas could be made available. I would especially like to see colored spotlights and such.
Tiaga
Tue Aug 03, 2004 5:07 am
#21
PoetDancer wrote:I like this. When most talks about fame content are proposed, they usually revolve around player votes. To me, it would just be the politician problem all over again, where players do not vote as a competitive activity as much as to give a player access to "goodies." I like how this kind of system places fame in the objective hands of the system, and not the subjective tastes of the playerbase. We already have the subjective aspect through the tip system.
picklesSW wrote:
My one comment on this entire thing is that 'fame' should not be judged based on NPCs and missions given out at terminals. A truly famous entertainer is one who is known by players. Someone going and doing a bunch of missions like this isn't even necessarily being social, never mind getting famous in any way but in their own mind.
And thus why this idea never gets anywhere.
My personal feeling is it should be somewhere in the middle.. You need to entertain players, but you need to actually work for it. Having fame just be a starting point for player competition might be another compromise, as I was suggesting in my comments about PvP.
Xyrdre
Tue Aug 03, 2004 5:36 am
#22
picklesSW wrote:
My one comment on this entire thing is that 'fame' should not be judged based on NPCs and missions given out at terminals. A truly famous entertainer is one who is known by players. Someone going and doing a bunch of missions like this isn't even necessarily being social, never mind getting famous in any way but in their own mind.
Well, I think that it still is so, of course. I noted this at the beginning of the proposal:
Granted, our real in-game fame is based on player interaction. Any fame system will be artificial - it will be a system that operates independently of how well known we are with our fellow players. This does not, however, mean that such a system cannot provide us with months of content that serves multiple purposes. Something to do that is not just sitting in the same cantinas, should we choose to takethe path to fame.
And that's really true. No matter what your Fame Rating was, even if displayed on your Character Screen, it would not make you a genuine luminary on your server if no one knew who you were. Real fame comes from our interactions with other players. This is an artificial system designed to provide extrastuff to do.
More semi-rambling musings...
Any kind of dev-provided content (short of sending in events team people to run things manually) is going to, by necessity, come down to coding and NPC's. Or, alternatively (and probably more far-fetchedly) granting similar powers to players in game. This... would take a lot of trust, I'd think.
The concern that I would haveof having player councils that determine whether or not someone participates in content, or perks, is that of cliques. The famous popularity contests... not based on performance or excellence in the profession necessarily, but could be bribes, loyalties, etc... or on the reverse end, griefing.
Conceivably there could be another type of Famesystem, with content and rewards,that was based on player-driven councils or what have you. That would be for another proposal. I think that serious thought would need to be put in place for how to control griefing and grandfathering in such a system before one could look at it as potentially viable on a very large scale.
Not to mention that a loose Fame system (unofficially) could be devised by players as player created content. Gather up prizes, form councils or whatnot, set a precedent for operations, and go to it... an offshoot perhaps of a very large and ongoing player event. The downside to such a player created system would be an inability to effect the coded environment beyond the existing 'content' available - something that could conceivably come from a coded system, as well as some practical boundaries, such as player time zones. If the Fame council players generally wereactiveduring US Pacific evenings, many Australian or European players on that server would not be able to participate. They may never have heard of the Council, or vice-versa. A coded system is open to anyone regardless of time zone, or frequency of play.
Clearly a lot more conceptual thought would need to be done to flesh out the outline provided herein, i.e., promoting social play in performance groups rather than solo mission grinding, and some way to encourage bringing others into those hotel and theatre environments. If these things could be done, it would be a most interesting proposal indeed. Still, a part of the idea of having these gigmissions take small groups of entertainers out into the galaxy and away from whatever core central location they've chosen from time to time is indeed just that... to see more activity going on throughout the galaxy rather than centralized in Coronet, Theed, or wherever.
Hmm... perhaps control mechanisms on Fame point acquisition during any given week... something along those lines to prevent Fame farming or mission grinding. On the other hand, is the idea that entertainers enjoying the structure a bad one? What would the ramifications be if such a system were a smash success? Always many questions such as these. But I think they're the same questions that would need to be considered for any lasting content that we could be provided. Short term content, say, a themepark or the currently planned entertainer quests, have no such potential effects for the long term. The downside is that they are short term content, done once and then it's over - and the player base goes back to clamoring and begging the devs for still more content. Pros and cons... always pros and cons.
Very good food for thought all around. I do like that there is some effort going into thinking about content for entertainers. I've had this fear that if the devs actually did come to us, in answer of the calls for "more content", and ask just exactly what we want as content, we would be left standing around stammering. Imagine such a missed opportunity... that would be a terrible shame.
Xyrdre
Tue Aug 03, 2004 5:48 am
#23
picklesSW wrote:
Just a few notes on the rewards.
The clothing schematics...a better way is to allow tailors free access to those schematics and place fame restrictions on the resulting clothing. For example, let them make a Spectacular Scintillating Thong, but noone can wear it unless they're fame level 3. Why do I say this? Because tailors already hate being considered a 'crafting slave'. They don't want you bringing them schematics they can only use once, they just want to make you great clothing. This way you also make sure that people don't spend their fame points to outfit their alt combat character.
I've never been a Tailor or even a crafter for that matter, so I don't have firsthand experience with that. It's believable, of course. Heh... I certainly don't like being thought of as a mind buffing slave.
But, here would be an honestquestion for the tailors among us (or looking in), since I really don't know. Is there a difference between someone bringing you a schematic for an Exquisite Leotard to commission its creation, and placinga specific custom clothingorder from schematics you already have? That was kind of where my thinking was on the schematics. It just seemed one way to do it.
And the notion to have schematics to take to Tailors was to promote that interdependency, of course... one could just as easily buy the item off the rack from the Booking Agent as well. Tailors would give the ability for color choices and such, so I would think it would be vastly preferable.
Xyrdre
Tue Aug 03, 2004 5:52 am
#24
I'll give some more thought to Tiaga's PvP angle as well... there could be some kind of interesting... something... in there. I'm not sure what it might mean yet either, but it's definitely worth looking at.
Tiaga
Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:06 am
#25
If someone brings me a schematic... Well, I really should figure out what I do but it depends..
If they bring the schematic and components and it isn't something I have, I'll make it for them for what I'd charge for the item it's based on. For example, the leotard I'd make for the cost of an exotic leotard. However, if I do that, they assume all risk of failure. If they bring extra and let me keep it, free of course. If it's a lot extra, I may even buy them off them.
If they bring schematic and components and it's something I have a lot of, sometimes I'll still make it for the cost of the base item. Sometimes I'll charge more but still a discount off what it would cost. In that case, I assume the risk of failure.
If it's just the schematic, they get a slight discount.
The only exception is crafter's aprons. No matter what they bring, it's only worth a discount. The reason is theres no way to tell what the schematic is without learning it. Since I already know all the aprons, I can't tell which it is even then. Not all schematics are equal. If they bring me a schematic for what turns out to be a tailor's apron, and want a medical apron, if I treat the schematic like it could be a medic apron and give it to them at component value, I've lost money. Medic aprons sell a lot better than tailor aprons.
If they bring the schematic and components and it isn't something I have, I'll make it for them for what I'd charge for the item it's based on. For example, the leotard I'd make for the cost of an exotic leotard. However, if I do that, they assume all risk of failure. If they bring extra and let me keep it, free of course. If it's a lot extra, I may even buy them off them.
If they bring schematic and components and it's something I have a lot of, sometimes I'll still make it for the cost of the base item. Sometimes I'll charge more but still a discount off what it would cost. In that case, I assume the risk of failure.
If it's just the schematic, they get a slight discount.
The only exception is crafter's aprons. No matter what they bring, it's only worth a discount. The reason is theres no way to tell what the schematic is without learning it. Since I already know all the aprons, I can't tell which it is even then. Not all schematics are equal. If they bring me a schematic for what turns out to be a tailor's apron, and want a medical apron, if I treat the schematic like it could be a medic apron and give it to them at component value, I've lost money. Medic aprons sell a lot better than tailor aprons.
Xyrdre
Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:43 am
#26
Aha! Just had another idea to add to the overall proposal...
Now, I'm a Community Veteran now... where's that edit button supposed to be? I don't have one, or I'd add this to the original post.
I'd also like to see some form ofstages in the overall Fame Rating hierarchy. Stage I, II, and III.
Let's assume for the moment that there are 30 Fame Ratings in the total system(remember, the equivalents of faction ranks)
Stage I Rating Titles (1-5)have the prerequisite of Novice Entertainer. Anyone with Novice Entertainer, and sufficient Fame points to 'buy' these Ratings can do so.
Stage II Rating Titles (6-15) have the prerequisite of Novice Dancer or Musician.
Stage III Rating Titles (16-30) have the prerequisite of Master Dancer or Musician.
Obviously, this would begin to put some framework to the gigsuccess parameters, based on skill levels of prerequisites, but would withhold upper level Ratings and toys/items/pets, etc. as Master level content. Something to do as a Master besides buffing, and would stagger out Fame point grinding at least a bit.
Decent idea?