Dancer Archive
Thread: Proposal for Fame System / Entertainer Game Content
Page 1 of 4
Xyrdre
Mon Aug 02, 2004 2:07 pm
#1
Prelude/Caveat
Alright, so I was thinking a bit about my joke thread about the EGCW and the Light and Dark Entertainer Councils, and I think some fatigue got to me. But I've come up with another idea... but this one just might work, if fleshed out more.
It was the idea of using other game parallels tailored to the entertainers that caught my mind. And the suggestions that some people have been making about entertainer NPC's owned by entertainers to be limited buffbots for remote cantinas.. blah blah (as if we'd like the idea of buffbots better just because they were ours) spun out of control intoa rudimentary notion.
Yes, I'm tired. I've been up all night, too thrilled about the promise of the death of recursive macros, and having too much fun saying "cry more" on the forums. 
I hope this poststays coherent.
I hope this poststays coherent.Entertainer Fame - Introduction
When I first installed SWG, my first inclination was to play a dancer. I had star-struck dreams of how great it'd be to develop my dancer into a galactic diva, star of stage and holoscreen. I had no idea whether or not the game could support my character visions directly, or how much I'd simply have to roleplay it, but I saw a rich enough world where such an idea might not be so far-fetched. Most of the realities of gameplay for entertainers today is that we're largely stuck on the roadhouse circuit, playing dingy cantinas on an endless tour that goes nowhere... except in the minds of our fanbases. But I wanted more...
We have beautifulshowhalls in the static cities - the Guildhall Theatres - that are vastly underused. I want to see ways to utilize these venues as much as we can... and what better way than to have them be a part of the status of fame?
Granted, our real in-game fame is based on player interaction. Any fame system will be artificial - it will be a system that operates independently of how well known we are with our fellow players. This does not, however, mean that such a system cannot provide us with months of content that serves multiple purposes. Something to do that is not just sitting in the same cantinas, should we choose to takethe path to fame.
I cannowenvision the core ofa fame system for entertainers that might give us some more things to do, get us out into the galaxy,provide supplementary (or even primary) income, and some fun toys and titles. The base concept uses some of the elements that we are familiar with, and soon to be familiar with.
The Road to Stardom Begins...
The Fame systemstarts off by simply doing the upcoming entertainer quests as a prequalifier. Really, these upcoming quests aremodeled more as an entertainer's breaking-in point anyway; the Theatre Manager sets you up in front of some NPC judges for your audition, you do some advertising to begin to get your name out there, do a small performance, advertise, slightly bigger performance, advertise, bigger performance. Now, the meat of these quests is along the lines of "do flourish 5 and 7, but not flourish 4" and "do Popular 2 and Rhythmic, but not Formal". Not Master level stuff, but actually suits the purposes for starting off your career in a fame system quite nicely.
Upon successful competion of the Entertainer quests, you've successfully impressed the Theatre Manager, built asmall reputation through advertising, andare now qualified to enter the Fame system proper. And of course, your reward is the new song or dance.
Xyrdre
Mon Aug 02, 2004 2:08 pm
#2
Entering the Fame system...
So, we're budding young starlets now. How does this work? What's next?
My concept for a fame system is really the entertainer's version of the GCW Faction system. As we are not at war (well, now that the buffbots are slated for dismantling), our Faction does not drive a negative as we go positive in Fame, but the rest of the concepts share close parallels.
Completion of the Entertainer Quests serves as the initial proving ground to begin in the Fame system, just as one must acquire 200 faction points before a faction recruiter will accept you. In our Fame system, rather than faction recruiters, we have Booking Agents who will be interested in representing us once we've gotten our feet wet in ShowBiz (by doing the entertainer quests). Booking Agents will be found backstage in static city Guildhall Theatres. An interesting touch here might be that once you've chosen your agent to represent you (from whichever static city you choose), that is your Agent - you cannot conduct your Fame business with just any old Agent you come across (one difference between faction recruiters... any of thosewill do, but your Agent is your Agent, even if multiple entertainers are represented by the same Agent). Once you've spoken with your Agent and hired him to represent you (joined the Fame system), you're ready to begin in the galaxy of Glitz and Glamour. More on the functions of Booking Agents later.
Hitting the Road - the Quest for Fame...
Yes, it's based on our Entertainer Mission terminals, but functioning as if they were faction (Fame) mission terminals as well.
This is where a lot of numbers and comparisons would need to be really looked at carefully, so my descriptions will remain for the time being necessarily vague... just to give an idea. More of some brainstorming, while leaving specific values as variables.
Entertainers not yet in the Fame system will see little change in the missions (which we'll start calling 'gigs')from the entertainerterminals as they currently exist, with the exception thatgig payouts really should increase to a range of, oh, 400-800 credits. We'll leave this alone for now as well... there may be ideas that come later that could make even these basic gigs a tad more interesting.
Once an entertainer has an Agent, however, these gigs will also award Fame points upon successful completion, comparable to faction point gains from combat players running faction missions.
Fame gigs scale up in difficulty levelswith the skill level of the entertainer... and group of entertainers. Similar to scalability ofcombat missions, but based on entertainer and elite entertainerprofessional skills combined. Note: this would reward a Musician or Dancerwhois also aMaster Entertainer, asadditional MEskills would factor intogig difficulties available.
Somegig difficulties may only be achievable by entertainers meeting a minimum skill level requirement to generate thatgig difficulty, aminimum Fame Rating, meeting a minimum group membership requirement (gig calls for 3 musicians who can play up to Ballad, and 2 dancers who know up to Popular 2, for example), or possibly a combination of all three factors.A large portion of gigs, especially starting at mid-difficulty and higher, should call for specific group requirements to be met for the gig as illustrated above, to promote social interaction at the gig between the entertainers themselves in the event of a lack of a player audience at the venue specified for the gig. More ideasabout group gigs in just a moment.
The lowest rated gigs only draw from cantinas and hotels in the area where the mission is taken - local coverage to gain exposure. After all, you're not a big enough name yet.to warrant wider draw and recognition. These early missions could even conceivably be required to be taken near your chosen Agent to represent the local area where careers begin. Many of these missions are as simple as the current entertainer missions - show up, dance for10-15 minutes, get paid for the gig and small amounts of Fame points. Nothing too fancy, as you're still a nobody.
As Fame Ratings increase, so too does the range ofdemand for your performances, the difficulty to complete, the payout and Fame reward,and for the duration of your performance set. Missions may start to spawn in cantinas (static or player) and hotels off-world as well. This begins to encourage a spread of entertainers throughout the galaxy (pursuitof Fame points)rather than solecongregations in few venues at traditional hubs (group XP bonuses and increased social outlet).
Missions at still higher and higher Fame Ratingsbegin to spawn in better venues (Theatres, and even up to the Palace at Theed, Jabba's Palace, etc. at the highest Ratings?) and spawn in venues off-world. Also as Rating and Mission difficulty increases, so too does the complexity required to successfully complete the mission - starting at the levels where Theatre engagements begin. This is where we get back to the existingcoding for the entertainer quests.
The coded system for the entertainer questaudience approval ratings can detect if you are performing the desired or undesired dances and flos. This basic system could conceivably be expanded into gig missions where you were asked to perform certain songs or dances by the venue during the course of a gig set. For example, the gig calls for you tocheck in with the Theatre Managerwithin one hour at the Mos Eisley Theatre, Tatooine... it will be a 20 minute performance, where you are to perform at least your variations on Ballad and SW2 (for a minimum of some continuousset period of time each (5 minutes?),songs selected randomly from the songs/dances known). Perhaps the audience couldstill be /conversed with just prior to get some idea of what flos they'd like to hear included, or excluded, and if there were any other songs they really *hated* and didn't want to hear at all during the course of the performance.
A minimum audienceapproval rating (as included in the entertainer quests, or even further improved for complexities?)must be achieved by the end of the performance, or cash payouts and Famepointsare halved (or not awarded at all?). Additionally, audience approval would start to drop back off if the requested flos were used too often (as in, more than thrice in succession), in order to prevent poor performances by simply spamming the 'requested' flos. Yes, there is inherent difficulty in having an AI determine the difference between a 'good' performance and a sloppy one intended to just hit the right combinationsrequested by the AI. Player audience votes may not be a reliable determinant either, as some would just bring friends along to stuff the ballot box with 'good performance' votes. I think that some form of NPC audience approval may yet be the most neutral choice, and the lesser of evils.
While testing the entertainer quests on TC, a friend and I commented on how fun it might be if those quests included options for bands, or dance troupes, or combinations of such groups. An expanded version of these quests, as suggested in this Fame system proposal, could be an ideal vehicle for such inclusions in game play, and thus further utilizing the work done on these quests thusfar. For now, I will leave ideas for how to include more entertainer group content in such a system, with divided payouts and Fame points appropriate for those levels of gigs to each group member, to speculative imagination. (Yes, this is the last section of this lengthy proposal I have written, and I've been awake far too long. ).Or at least, in short, if there were a way for the Quest system to not only read the skill makeup of the individual (as it does now), but could understand skill makeups of collective members of formed groups, perhaps then group mission song or dance requirements for successful gigs could be managed, specific instrumentations or particulardance combinations with song requests included... etc. I would hope only that some balance could be reached between the needs for success parameters (do flourish 7, don't do flourish 3) and room for creative interpretation and stylistic performance, especially in band/troupe gigs, could be found so that the Fame gigs were more subjectively acceptable to the performers, while still able to be "judged" mechanically by the system. And not something which could be easily sidestepped and satisfied by merely showing up and skill animating for the prescribed time. Clearly there is still some thought needed along these lines to find a good balance.
).Or at least, in short, if there were a way for the Quest system to not only read the skill makeup of the individual (as it does now), but could understand skill makeups of collective members of formed groups, perhaps then group mission song or dance requirements for successful gigs could be managed, specific instrumentations or particulardance combinations with song requests included... etc. I would hope only that some balance could be reached between the needs for success parameters (do flourish 7, don't do flourish 3) and room for creative interpretation and stylistic performance, especially in band/troupe gigs, could be found so that the Fame gigs were more subjectively acceptable to the performers, while still able to be "judged" mechanically by the system. And not something which could be easily sidestepped and satisfied by merely showing up and skill animating for the prescribed time. Clearly there is still some thought needed along these lines to find a good balance.Unless the NPC audience spawning was also expanded to include cantinas or hotels, such group gigs would by necessity begin at whatever Fame Ratings were required to get the better Theatre venue gigs, but the more of these types of grouped 'quest' style gigs could be included, in differing permutations based on group compositions, the more it would promote entertainer groups in various locales, bands/dance troupes, and players working together in general rather than solo.
Xyrdre
Mon Aug 02, 2004 2:09 pm
#3
On Gig Mission Payouts...
Although entertainers were originally intended to rely heavily on tips for healing services for income, the current trends are for other players to not be generous with tipping for services rendered. The addition of buffs as 'salables' for entertainers should be testimony enough that pure reliance on player generosity is not working as originallyintended. I therefore propose that these gig missions have substantially higher payouts than the 'standard' entertainer missions to serve as a new source of revenue for entertainers that is more conducive to our playstyle than the addition of craftable items for sales would be. The likely sink for this additonal revenue would be in going back to the economy in purchases of goods - clothing, costly BE enhanced foods,vehicles, structures and maintenance, and in decor for structures - all of whichare frequent expenditures made by entertainers.
That said, gig payouts should take into consideration the amount of time required to successfully complete the gig, as well as the number of groupedentertainers required to complete, so that each entertainer is sufficiently compensated for their time spent, in reasonable proportion to what combat missions would generate for those players in a similar amount of time required to complete. It is understood that the average combat player 'sinks' more money into expensive perishables such as weapons and armor (moneys which, as such perishable items aredestroyed through frequent use, rightfully leaves the economy), and that entertainers' expenses commensurate with their entertainment activities are not as high, and moneys taken in by entertainerswill take longer to deplete from the economy. Additionally, gig payouts should have a travel modifier of +1000-2000 credits per planet range (as dictated by existing space lane travel) per entertainerto cover incurred round-triptravel costs.
Booking Agents - What Are Those Snakes For?...
Your Booking Agent is of course, like a faction recruiter, who you go to see to acknowledge your new Fame in ShowBiz, or have him schmooze using your good name to namedrop behind the scenes to get his slimy hands on some nice stuff for you. Your Agent is where you spend your acquired Fame points, just like faction points with recruiters.
What can I get with Fame Points?
- Increases in your Fame Rating - No different than buying up a new faction rank in the GCW system, Fame Ratings increase in cost alongthe samescale as faction ranks. To provide long-term interest in the system, a similar number ofFame Ratings should exist as faction ranks (how many faction ranks are there... like 30? ). Ideally, Fame Rating titles should have colorful and appropriate names representing ascending levels of performer, with both male/female and music/dance equivalents represented. Fame Rating titles are displayed on your Character Screen, and would be nice if they showed up in your character's /examine window as well... we'd love to flaunt our Fame!
- Performance Enhancements / EntertainerSpecific Items- Awhile ago, members of the dancer forum compiled a list of dance props and toys that we'd like to see added in, and many of those could show up here, purchasable with Fame points. Musicians could conceivablypurchase new art versions/colors of instruments to add some individuality. Entertainer specific items? How about some form of Wardrobe item that functioned like an invisible backpack? No added advantage in inventory capacity over non-entertainers, but we couldstill carry as muchas other characters without havingan ugly (and non-stage show worthy) pack slung over our shoulders.Basically, this is the section where cool 'faction toys' would show up for purchase, with higher Fame Ratings 'unlocking' better and better stuff that we could spend Fame points to acquire. There is a lot of room for ideas for stuff in this category, and could easily be added to as time progressed.
- New Clothing Schematics - The idea here is to provide a vehicle for special entertainer clothing, and to fulfill some other long sought-after wants/needs. Schematics purchased with Fame points will need to be taken to Tailors to be made, and are single-use. Schematics range from simple, attractive stagewear at lower Fame Ratings up to specialized clothing to rival or surpass the Exquisite Leotard in desirability (perhaps going as high as +10 Mind Enhancement? More? or even some form of new skill mod that prevents falls at Master Dancer?) in both male and female variants. Remember that at some of the highest Fame Ratings, based on the time required to gain high faction rank, an entertainer may have been participating in this system for months. The Exquisite Leotard schematic can be obtained (with a bit of luck) in mere hours at Jabbas - and skill tapes are often outside of the financial reach of entertainers. Many entertainers, if without combat skills, are outside of the "loot loop" - and perhaps some desirable skill mods built into clothing schematicshere as reward for long-term commitment to the Fame systemwould bean equalizing factor.
- Future New Songs and Dances - As they become available, additions of future new songs and dances could also be included in such a system. I include this here as an option - a good argument could be made that new performance content should simply be made available at certain skill certification levels, but there is also the side that says that we're not necessarily opposed to going out and performing for such rewards. Just an idea here.
- And... (my favorite ) Fame Pets! - Yes! Faction pets for Fame! At sufficiently high Fame levels, access to gaining Fame pets is granted. Fame pets could perhaps be chosen like vendor characters, with particular looks/genders selectable or rerollable until you get the pet you'd like. Up to two "pets" can be purchased, and as a special perk for entertainers of sufficiently highFame Ratings, both can be called simultaneously. Pets are linked to your dance and musicskills -they know the songs anddances that you know, but do not count as having skill levels (thus grouping with Fame pets cannot increase Fame mission levels - you still have to find other entertainers to group with to get the higher missions). The purpose they serve is as backup dancers and musicians... /startdance(music) the same dance(song) that you do when out, /changedance(band) as well, and they respond to /bandflos! Weeeee! Music pets could have the same abilities as playback droids, but as characters could also share flourish animations with their Famous Musician! I do think that they'd need to share the dances and songs known by the Famous Entertainer, since these would beacquired late in theFame system, be veryFame point expensive, and there is a limit of two - and there are a lot of dancer/musiciancombinationsout there.Okay, I know that this would likely take some problem solving in the coding, but I think it's just too cool an idea to let go over mere details like 'difficult to code'.
PhoenixStar
Mon Aug 02, 2004 2:15 pm
#4
I'm hoping something like this is done for all professions(tailored to each of course), I'm all for any and all ideas that give us something to do besides grind to master and stand around picking at little things for no reason.
Nice ideas and very detailed. 
Panthu
Mon Aug 02, 2004 3:06 pm
#5
I love it! This is really more along the lines of what we were asking for with the Ent Quests and making this the next step would really make them worth while! 
I've asked TH to be watching this thread.
PoetDancer
Mon Aug 02, 2004 3:25 pm
#6
I like this. When most talks about fame content are proposed, they usually revolve around player votes. To me, it would just be the politician problem all over again, where players do not vote as a competitive activity as much as to give a player access to "goodies." I like how this kind of system places fame in the objective hands of the system, and not the subjective tastes of the playerbase. We already have the subjective aspect through the tip system.
Which leads me to my question. If we get a viable, and sometimes sizeable, source of income from entertainer missions, what will this do to our tips? Will players feel the need to tip us at all knowing full well we are making income through some other means?
Xyrdre
Mon Aug 02, 2004 4:05 pm
#7
PoetDancer wrote:
Which leads me to my question. If we get a viable, and sometimes sizeable, source of income from entertainer missions, what will this do to our tips? Will players feel the need to tip us at all knowing full well we are making income through some other means?
I don't think we can really be sure until we were in that situation. Probably some still will. My guess is that very few players feel a need to tip us anymore... I think that the days of AFK pretty much shot down any sense of obligation for tipping entertainers for healing, at least. Buffbots shot down a lot of players sense of obligation for tipping/paying for buffs. Seems to me that players that do still tip, for healing or just fun interaction, do so because they choose to out of a sense of appreciation, not out of feeling a need or obligationto. The last of the courteous patrons.
However, that said...
There are, in my experience, a very small percentage of players overall that are still tipping entertainers without some sort of targeted method of using our game mechanics. Players will alwayspay for mind buffs if they're charged up front - andsometimes (percentages vary by performer and server, it seems)if not charged up front. Hence the concepts earlier regarding targeted healing; with passive healing, that service can be taken without any 'pressure' to tip, and so the vast majority of players are doing just that... taking the healing and not tipping. The lack of cash flow led a lot of entertainers to want to put some form of control on that to be able to choose to enforce some compensation for those skilled benefits. Medics, with active wound healing, always have the choice to charge before healing if they see the need to. Entertainers only have that choice if they do not dance/play until first paid... which does not seem to be intuitive for most.
Some playersthat do still tip, tip fairly well, but those fewdo not appear to beenough to go around... especially if the goal is to add and retain evenmore entertainers to supply a theoretically botless/AFKless game environment. In short, and I think I said something in my proposal regarding this, tips are no longer remotely reliable enough an income to sustain a thriving entertainer environment. Alternative incomes are required by many, and perhaps most, entertainersto make ends meet.
Many entertainers choose, or are financially forced, to take up combat professions to run missions and pay the bills.The vast majority of additionalsuggestions for entertainersupplementary (or primary) income has been variants of crafting professions. My improved payout proposal contained within at least offers stable mission-based income for performing... something in-line with what attracted entertainerplayers to the professions in the first place. Made sense to me... entertainer/social players deriving income by working within their chosen playstyle, rather than having to adopt the combat or crafting styles just to have access to goods and services in game that players regardless of playstyle should at least have reasonable access to.
Additionally, I like to think that the Fame point/faction point parallel means that entertainers might be more drawn to the system not out of a sense of simplegreed to get the money, but rather more akin to players running faction missions to aquire FP's for buying ranks or toys. The money on those missions is generally ofsecondary concern, but is nice as well. And, these Fame gig missions could not be turned over nearly as quickly as combat faction missions, where 2 can be completed in 10 minutes. Hence my suggestion to find a reasonable ratio based on time spent to complete, even if it did not equal out to be the same (or even over half, necessarily) of the revenues entering the game economy through combat missions. And Fame isn't really faction... anyone could easily still choose Imperial or Rebel factions to participate in the GCW, and be able to have 2 such faction-point type games to play with. Even more fun. Add a Hutt Casino someday, and the Themeparks of your choice... and the fun keeps stacking up.
My thinking - even if a lot of entertainers are poverty-stricken in the real world, that doesn't make for fun game play. Even if what we'd spend our money on is art, housing anddecorations,and clothes, we can still have more fun having some of those imaginary things than having to go without because we're still at the mercy of generosity of players where generosity seems to have largely gone the way of the dinosaur. And... anyone who doesn't like the idea of the Fame system or the mission payouts certainly doesn't have to do them if they really don't want to. There are clear advantages to doing so, however, if even a third of the neat things you can 'buy' with Fame points ended up in a final version.
Fordep
Mon Aug 02, 2004 6:24 pm
#8
sounds great...
expecialy fame pets...
would be great if you could choose between different ones.
You could get these types of Fame Pets:
1. Groopie
2. Body Guard
3. Backup Dancer
4. Backup Musician
5. Backup Singer (sings in some odd SW language that has no real words anyways... just like adding to music/dance with a rythmic non-specific unrecognisable vocal)
6. Body Double (for those times you need to keep people away from you, looks exactly like you)
7. Effects/Lighting Professional (adds extra effects/lightings to your performance in a planned order, much like the droids, they possibly only work in theatres and they project effects onto you and not on themselves)
8. Personal Assistant (acts like an extra datapad and can do things like deposit credits in your bank acount and contact your agent)
Cudayn
Mon Aug 02, 2004 7:57 pm
#9
Wow!
Great stuff indeed, and yes, multiple "groopies" for me please 
Durney
FuschiaD
Mon Aug 02, 2004 9:36 pm
#10
I want a bodyguard! Preferably a big, burly one with strong arms and... oh, sorry, I've gotten carried away.
I really love this idea. For anyone who's played the Sims and has the Superstar expansion, it reminds me strongly of the fame rating they have there. And it's a great way to reward dancers who actually PLAY an entertainer. Nice proposal!
DarkY0da
Mon Aug 02, 2004 10:05 pm
#11
I'm all for something like this.
I think I mentioned this in the dark/light thread but I think I would like to see something along the lines of the Jedi Council put in. I think this could work with this idea as something like this maybe...
At like 50k fp you could spend 50k to to join the Ent Council(or the RIAA ) and Musician and Dancers would all be in the same council. So you get 2 votes you can cast. You can't cast them for the same person. And you can't cast them for yourself. And anyone that sets up a "gig"(aka the person that has an event and puts up the mission for the entertainer) could afterwards rate that entertainer 1-5 stars. And once a month said votes would get counted up and we'll say the top 10 then get boosts or perks. Something like...
) and Musician and Dancers would all be in the same council. So you get 2 votes you can cast. You can't cast them for the same person. And you can't cast them for yourself. And anyone that sets up a "gig"(aka the person that has an event and puts up the mission for the entertainer) could afterwards rate that entertainer 1-5 stars. And once a month said votes would get counted up and we'll say the top 10 then get boosts or perks. Something like...10. +5 Mind Enhancement and a special Holoemote(or a Special Effect) And new title
so on and so forth slightly increasing the perks as you move up. So that at the top
1 +25 Mine Enhancement, 1 use schematic for something just really cool. (Limo ?) a boost to mission payouts and pretty much all the perks of 2-10.
I think something like that would be just really cool. I mean if you have an event wouldn't it be cool then to have the top superstar of your server to come and do the entertainment ?
But anyways I think stuff like this would be rather cool... but then again I've always sort of thought that you should be able to join more factions in the game then just Imp or Rebel. I mean what if I want to work for Jabba ? or Blacksun ?
PoetDancer
Mon Aug 02, 2004 10:11 pm
#12
Xyrdre wrote:
That said, gig payouts should take into consideration the amount of time required to successfully complete the gig, as well as the number of groupedentertainers required to complete, so that each entertainer is sufficiently compensated for their time spent, in reasonable proportion to what combat missions would generate for those players in a similar amount of time required to complete. It is understood that the average combat player 'sinks' more money into expensive perishables such as weapons and armor (moneys which, as such perishable items aredestroyed through frequent use, rightfully leaves the economy), and that entertainers' expenses commensurate with their entertainment activities are not as high, and moneys taken in by entertainerswill take longer to deplete from the economy. Additionally, gig payouts should have a travel modifier of +1000-2000 credits per planet range (as dictated by existing space lane travel) per entertainerto cover incurred round-triptravel costs.
Now what is the risk, and what is the reward? By performing in the cantina now, I risk not getting tipped. So I do things that maximize my chances of getting a tip: greet, amuse, sustain interest, and make a normally tedious time go by smoother. Combat players have a similarly high risk. If they are aggroed by an unusually tough spawn, or they are similarly unable to complete the mission requirements, their consumables get depleted and get NO reward.
But what is the risk here in this plan? And if the risk is not very high, why should the reward be high? A player in this plan gets paid regardless of what they do or do not do at the keys. They could simply type /startdance and leave the computer for a quick, easy (and from the looks of things), disproportionately high reward.
And then I ask again, if we get paid regardless of what we do or not do behind the keys, then why should anyone feel the need to tip us anymore than the easy money we are making?
CristineA
Mon Aug 02, 2004 10:21 pm
#13
Oooooh ooooh (Oh sorry got carried away with something else, op said too much already), Oh I could get Celeberty status? Ooo love it bring it on.
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