Dancer Archive
Thread: In Development: Recursive Macros are going away.
Auraveda
Wed Aug 04, 2004 8:20 am
#183
rayill wrote:It was the multitude of players who play with the cavalier American attitude that "I want everything my way right now" that has brought this upon us.
I agree with the bulk of your post, except I have to address the above snippet. I don't know where you are from, but "I want everything my way right now" is not a specificly American trait, selfishness and impatience are HUMAN traits. It saddens me that the rest of the world seems to have such a 1-dimensional and poor view of Americans. Everyone who resides within the United States is not nessesarily a whining crybaby, and everyone who resides outside of the United states is not inherently smarter, wiser, and more patient than an American.
Kreistor
Wed Aug 04, 2004 8:24 am
#184
PhoenixStar wrote:Last night I told people in my group about this and it was the first time they've ever heard about it and they were outraged. Not everyone wants this gone. We're all entertainers by the way, I'm a dancer myself. Not everyone agrees with it, and not many people who actually are playing the game seem to even know about this change. I've asked around and most give me this "WHAT?!?! WHY?", so I think that should say something about making changes through forums and now allowing people to decide in game. They could easily set up a public poll through the login like EQ does or through an in game npc and tally the results, then we'd truly know what the majority of the players want.
Sorry PheonixStar, as nice and demoratic as a poll would be, it really isn't our decision to make. It never was. It's SOE's decision, period. All we did was bring to them our concerns and our opinions like other people do about their professions. They're the ones that make the final decision.
Imagine a poll that asked people about, say, killstealing. What if for some reason people voted for killstealing to be allowed. Does that mean it should? Not necessarily. SOE has the vision of what they want their game to be like. We can make suggestions, but in no way should the majority have the say when it comes to ruining someone else's gameplay, like killstealing does, and like Buffbots do.
Besides, the removal of Recursive Macros isn't just to solve the problem of Buffbots. It's to solve the problem of ALL UNATTENDED PLAY. That includes macrolooters, unattended combaters, DocBots, and more. Maybe we're just the ones that make the loudest noise, but it doesn't only solve our dilemma.
I for one am waiting for the change to happen before I start praising or yelling about it. When that day comes, then I'll be back with many comments I'm sure.
kirah_ashlin
Wed Aug 04, 2004 8:40 am
#185
Well stated, Ubi. I'm excited about the prospect of the buffbots getting the boot, but I know this is not and end-all by any means. We shall all have to wait and see.
Kreistor wrote:
PhoenixStar wrote:
Last night I told people in my group about this and it was the first time they've ever heard about it and they were outraged. Not everyone wants this gone. We're all entertainers by the way, I'm a dancer myself. Not everyone agrees with it, and not many people who actually are playing the game seem to even know about this change. I've asked around and most give me this "WHAT?!?! WHY?", so I think that should say something about making changes through forums and now allowing people to decide in game. They could easily set up a public poll through the login like EQ does or through an in game npc and tally the results, then we'd truly know what the majority of the players want.
Sorry PheonixStar, as nice and demoratic as a poll would be, it really isn't our decision to make. It never was. It's SOE's decision, period. All we did was bring to them our concerns and our opinions like other people do about their professions. They're the ones that make the final decision.
Imagine a poll that asked people about, say, killstealing. What if for some reason people voted for killstealing to be allowed. Does that mean it should? Not necessarily. SOE has the vision of what they want their game to be like. We can make suggestions, but in no way should the majority have the say when it comes to ruining someone else's gameplay, like killstealing does, and like Buffbots do.
Besides, the removal of Recursive Macros isn't just to solve the problem of Buffbots. It's to solve the problem of ALL UNATTENDED PLAY. That includes macrolooters, unattended combaters, DocBots, and more. Maybe we're just the ones that make the loudest noise, but it doesn't only solve our dilemma.
I for one am waiting for the change to happen before I start praising or yelling about it. When that day comes, then I'll be back with many comments I'm sure.
PhoenixStar
Wed Aug 04, 2004 9:40 am
#186
Kreistor wrote:
PhoenixStar wrote:
Last night I told people in my group about this and it was the first time they've ever heard about it and they were outraged. Not everyone wants this gone. We're all entertainers by the way, I'm a dancer myself. Not everyone agrees with it, and not many people who actually are playing the game seem to even know about this change. I've asked around and most give me this "WHAT?!?! WHY?", so I think that should say something about making changes through forums and now allowing people to decide in game. They could easily set up a public poll through the login like EQ does or through an in game npc and tally the results, then we'd truly know what the majority of the players want.
Sorry PheonixStar, as nice and demoratic as a poll would be, it really isn't our decision to make. It never was. It's SOE's decision, period. All we did was bring to them our concerns and our opinions like other people do about their professions. They're the ones that make the final decision.
Imagine a poll that asked people about, say, killstealing. What if for some reason people voted for killstealing to be allowed. Does that mean it should? Not necessarily. SOE has the vision of what they want their game to be like. We can make suggestions, but in no way should the majority have the say when it comes to ruining someone else's gameplay, like killstealing does, and like Buffbots do.
Besides, the removal of Recursive Macros isn't just to solve the problem of Buffbots. It's to solve the problem of ALL UNATTENDED PLAY. That includes macrolooters, unattended combaters, DocBots, and more. Maybe we're just the ones that make the loudest noise, but it doesn't only solve our dilemma.
I for one am waiting for the change to happen before I start praising or yelling about it. When that day comes, then I'll be back with many comments I'm sure.
No, it is our decision as long as it's not extremely disruptive to the game, that's why we have /deny in the first place. That's why IDs now have required payments. No poll would contain a vote for killstealing because that falls under griefing and most players in any MMO hate that to begin with. This will not solve the problem of unattended play because you can write a long macro just like the early days and go afk for 6 or 7 hours, this is only going to end the loop which isn't necessary as it won't solve anything. The only solution is to force auto-afk for people who have not touched a key for 30 minutes and kick them, period. That's the ONLY solution to unattended play. There shouldn't be an option for afk or not, if you're afk the game should start counting down to kick. Ending looping macros will just throw the timing off on entertainer macros and screw up combat macros such as center of being. If you really want unattended players gone, then you should say you want afkers kicked with no work around.
DarkY0da
Wed Aug 04, 2004 10:40 am
#187
Uhh that was pretty much the majority of our ideas on how to end afk.
Hard code the timer so you can't turn it off. 30 minutes of no mouse movement or what not would put you afk (no /afk to undo it) 30 minutes later a randomly spawned Radial would show asking you to click something. 10 minutes later with no clicking you get logged.
Things like that and tons of variations have been tossed around forever by Entertainers. NO Entertainer that I know of has ever said that they should take out the ability to loop macros. No Corr made any sort of suggestion to the devs for this.
The Devs came up with this on their own.
If this is the only chance we have at limiting Un-attended gameplay then I'm all for it. BUT they need to put some work into the areas of the game that people thought were a "grind" or "boring" and streamline or enhance them. Which I think was what they were trying to do with the Crafting Quests. In which case it shows they are thinking about improving things not just nerfing looping macros.
Reiella
Wed Aug 04, 2004 10:47 am
#188
DarkY0da wrote:
If this is the only chance we have at limiting Un-attended gameplay then I'm all for it. BUT they need to put some work into the areas of the game that people thought were a "grind" or "boring" and streamline or enhance them. Which I think was what they were trying to do with the Crafting Quests. In which case it shows they are thinking about improving things not just nerfing looping macros.
You also have to consider, a large part of why entertaining got to be so boring was that there were macroers about that weren't available for the socializers to socialize with. It was a 'slippery slope' situation that kept getting worse and worse. It's so bad now that it would be very difficult to gauge how of the 'fun' was adversly affected by the AFK-drones.
I do agree largely though, that the process should be made more interactive, I do think that any approach to the 'entertainer problem' needs address unattended play first and evaluate the results first.
I also wish that the bloody Publish 10 would get here already so we'd at the very least see a reduction in the macro-drones.
rayill
Wed Aug 04, 2004 10:58 am
#189
Auraveda wrote:
rayill wrote:
It was the multitude of players who play with the cavalier American attitude that "I want everything my way right now" that has brought this upon us.
I agree with the bulk of your post, except I have to address the above snippet. I don't know where you are from, but "I want everything my way right now" is not a specificly American trait, selfishness and impatience are HUMAN traits. It saddens me that the rest of the world seems to have such a 1-dimensional and poor view of Americans. Everyone who resides within the United States is not nessesarily a whining crybaby, and everyone who resides outside of the United states is not inherently smarter, wiser, and more patient than an American.
Sorry if I offended you above about the American comment. I myself am American, born and raised. The reason I used the term cavalier American attitude is because it is the stereotypical view associated with American people. We are one of the premier powers in what is known of Western Civilization, and even our stereotypical behavior is what is the easiest to identify when making a comparison. I know many people who are American where this view would never actually apply, but it still doesn't change the stereotype. I've had quite a few classes in regards to international studies and stereotypes. I agree whole-heartedly that these are human traits that are sadly blamed to be American traits.
I suppose in retrospect that I could have made an allusion to one or two professions in this game that would signify the same kind of attitude, but at this point, I'll choose to respect their professions and not bring them into this matter.
CodeBreaker007
Wed Aug 04, 2004 1:16 pm
#190
Ok! Their are some thing being saidthat using looping macrosare the cause of....And I can't beleive their being used as an excuse.
This is reguarding: People saying lag on servers is down to looping macros and people using more than one acc, now first off people who have more than one acc, pay for their accounts and isn't the cause of lag. Neither is using macros..
The whole problem here is some are saying that botts are giving free buff and removing their chance to make money..Now where do people get the idea that even if a person wasn't AFK that their still not going to give free buffs? The macro doesn't cause free buffs it's the owner of the character who has decided to give his or her services free. Now who can stop anyone from doing that? Not a macro as that seems to be dancers complain't...
What is needed is the ability to craft items that go along with entertainer/dancer/musician to make items that either enhance the entertainers ability to do more and give more help to everyone else and the ability to take on missions that pay well...
Missions can be anything from getting 20 people together and performing for them, to creating shows in theaters with groups of dancers, and also the ability to make mind enhancements in the form of say blue crystals that when carried around by entertainers it will allow them to mind buff, and iff their not then they can only buff in a cantina..
I'm sure their are plenty of things that can enhance entertainers and give them more to make money out off..
Also why not have a system set into the cantina where dancers can enter their names when using a cantina, and a price then set on the door for people to pay to get in, then battle fatigue would then create an entertainers income, and all money paid as and when people enter gets devided to the entertainers dancing or playing in a group at that cantina..
Aleyo
Wed Aug 04, 2004 1:25 pm
#191
CodeBreaker007 wrote:The whole problem here is some are saying that botts are giving free buff and removing their chance to make money..Now where do people get the idea that even if a person wasn't AFK that their still not going to give free buffs? The macro doesn't cause free buffs it's the owner of the character who has decided to give his or her services free. Now who can stop anyone from doing that? Not a macro as that seems to be dancers complain't...
The problem with bots giving free buffs is not that they give free buffs, but that they're bots.
If the live musician next to me wants to undercut my prices, that's his choice and part of the capitalist market in the game. However, I can be relieved that at some point, he will log off from the game and I'll be able to make my profits. With bots, this is not an option, as they're always there. The bot doesn't have a problem being there 23/7 because it doesn't cost it the time spent doing that. There is an inherent cost with providing entertainer buffs (though not enough of one, I would argue), and that is the time spent sitting in the cantina providing the buffs that could be spent elsewhere making money a different way. A bot isn't being played by a player, and the time cost is not an issue. *That* is the problem.
Nacoa
Wed Aug 04, 2004 1:40 pm
#192
CodeBreaker007 wrote:Ok! Their are some thing being said that using looping macros are the cause of....And I can't beleive their being used as an excuse.This is reguarding: People saying lag on servers is down to looping macros and people using more than one acc, now first off people who have more than one acc, pay for their accounts and isn't the cause of lag. Neither is using macros..
If you're not using macros, then why do you care if recursive macros are in the game or not? As for paying for the accounts, that's absolutely irrelevant to server lag. More cash in SOE's bank account does not make lag magically disappear. Yes they can use that money for a while to buy more servers, but they can only segment the planets so much before they cause even more problems.
The whole problem here is some are saying that botts are giving free buff and removing their chance to make money..Now where do people get the idea that even if a person wasn't AFK that their still not going to give free buffs?
The assumption is that a player at the keyboard will want something for the extra effort. Yes, they could continue buffing for free while ATK, but that's just about as likely as a Doc buffing for free.
What is needed is the ability to craft items that go along with entertainer/dancer/musician to make items that either enhance the entertainers ability to do more and give more help to everyone else and the ability to take on missions that pay well...
No, dancers and musicians are not crafters. They're not designed to be crafters. They aren't played by people who want to be crafters. What appears to be troubling you is that you don't realize there are more than 2 playstyles. Some people want to play the game, but don't want to be fighters OR crafters. They prefer the social aspects of the game. It is probably a completely foreign idea to you since you're not that type of player, but it's just as valid a reason to play.
The 2nd part you don't seem to see is that this change is not directed at the entertainers. The devs want to stop unattended play, and entertainers are only the most visible to you. Meatlump campers, cave campers, starport spammers and all the rest of the unattended players are "bad things". Removing recursion is an attempt to block all unattended play, whether it's a buffbot or a sampling macro. So every entertainer-directed solution you come up with will not fix everything the devs are trying to fix with this.
Also why not have a system set into the cantina where dancers can enter their names when using a cantina
There is. It's bugged. Please use /bug to report that all cantinas and medcenters show registered entertainers so they might finally fix it.
Message Edited by Nacoa on 08-04-2004 04:41 PM
CodeBreaker007
Wed Aug 04, 2004 3:38 pm
#193
Some of these replys are kinda daft, as your not reading the posts correctly and replying twisting what is being said, my last post was in reply to others.
1: I am using a macro for dancing while at work and in bed, have you a problem with that? , I choose to use what I'm paying for from my 1 meg adsl connection to my swg acc's which I pay for through working hard 5 days a week..
2: Being AFK is not a crime, who the hell are you guys telling me how to play a computer game or run my life by telling me or anyone else I should be sat infront of my pc? Some of us also have work and have house holds to run and don't have all this free time you kids do, And while I'm AFK I'm still dancin and healing people battle fatigue free and keep other people going..Even when I'm not sat at my pc, but doing me washing and other stuff..Get the point?
3: Entertainer/Musician/Dancer are apart of this game and also keep other professions running, some of you are putting it acros like your some maffia with some elite profesion...I'm almost at master dancer, my goal is to perform for my guild and charge or give free my service as and when I like. If I ever come across any entertainers over charging for buffs, I will stand next to you and shout free buffs..
4: I also can tell you now, their will be people creating macros that will run for hours on end..
5: You won't stop 23/7 bots, people will just create longer macros to compensate. The will also take turns in taking over spots which guild members will do..So you won't stop 23/7 buffing
6: You people don't realise you ain't going to stop anything..
7: Makes me laugh, why are you people having so many problems with buffbots is because you goto some cantina see a bott and say their pinching your trade yet haven't got the noddle to move else where, were their aren't any botts, then come on the forum and complain about it. I haven't seen hardly any botts buffing thats how hard they are to find on european server.. And the ones I have seen are used in guild cantinas and they charge for entering at about 6k.. They provide a service even AFK, and where are people like you to be found, no where but tucked up in bed...Some of us older players don't have all day on swg, so we use are time wisley and if that means using a looping macro to gain xp, so be it.. I don't want to spend 3 months to gain one profession, 2 weeks is enough thank you..
PhoenixStar
Wed Aug 04, 2004 3:44 pm
#194
The above postsare why we cannot have a debate or come to any sort of conclusion. Any time someone comes up with an answer a few of you don't want to hear you immediately shoot it down or use insulting words/phrases without introducing anything new to the discussion. Read back through these log winded posts about why a new less drastic idea can't be tried first and you'll see where the "trolling" and insults are coming from, then tone your posts down a bit and stop trying to insult the intelligence of others please.
There is simply no reason why there can't be a timer that will automatically boot afkers who are not at the keyboard for 30 minutes, it's already hard coded into the game, the only reason it's not working is because we have the option to turn it off. Take that option away and we instantly have a fix. No ifs ands or buts.
There is NO reason to take away recursive macros for that reason alone. Taking away recursive macros would only force owners of buff bots and every other bot to write longer macros that will still run for hours, those of us ATK cannot work with long macros unless we want to keep using /dump, and trying to time the next set of flourishes.
If you truly are a dancer or musician then you know what I'm talking about because it's impossible to run a flawless show without a recursive macro, if you're really doing it because you enjoy it and not just for exp. If anything removing macro will only be flat out annoying.
I can't believe people are agreeing with this quick fix that will only further break the game when there are already hard coded solutions WITHIN the game as it is. If you truly want to solve the bot problem ask the devs to remove the auto-afk option. It's so simple and will solve the afk problem entirely. If you disagree with that then you cannot tell me you're trying to help the game because that's not helping anyone who's learned how to use macros to better their character and playing time. I get so much more done with macros than I can without, and there's no reason to remove the loop at all.
Message Edited by PhoenixStar on 08-04-2004 06:45 PM
CodeBreaker007
Wed Aug 04, 2004 4:07 pm
#195
I just realised as well, their would be now reason for removing any looping macros, why you ask?
Well why are people asking for it to be removed, it's based on the premice that botts are taking trade from entertainers. I would put it to these Entertainers that they have created a character badly..
At the moment I'm at:
Teras Kasi Master
Dancer 4/4/4/3
Entertainer 0/0/4/4
Brawler 4/0/0/0
Scout 0/0/1/0
This is with one character and through the professions I'e chosen I have 3 means of making money in this game.
Teras Kasi : I can make 400k if I was to spend saturday and sunday playing missions..
Dancer : I can make 7 to 10k a buff if and when I choose or just help and give free buffs to beginners.
Scout : I'll be able to with what points I have left get 0/0/4/4 and collect hide/bone/meat and then cell it on the market..
Now I have 3 ways to make money and survive. What professions have these people wanting looping macros removed got? That they are so upset about people giving free buffs and saying it's their only form of creating money..
I think these people have chosen badly in creating their characters, to only wanting to survive on entertaining..
Now my second character will be:
Master Medic
Master Doctor
Master Artisan
If I have enough points, but again choose wisely and you won't have to rely on one income and you wouldn't need to moan about looping macros..and botts.