CUEmu - Thread Posts

Padtai

Sat Sep 11, 2004 12:11 am

Boy as if there weren't enough disagreement, we have to complain about the fonts too?

Reachwind

Sat Sep 11, 2004 12:14 am

Warryyr wrote:

OK, SORRY.

If you were referring to any of my posts, aside from a header i used for emphasis, I thought my font was the default size...

It's default size... If I was half blind and needed four inch letters to be able to read.

Isendel

Sat Sep 11, 2004 4:10 am

#159

Dreamland you do not know what your talking about on this issue.... I am sorry to say... Buffs are not the problem in pvp.. It is the armor.. Before armor broke the 70% level there was NO problem in pvp, the various claseses did pleanty of damage to each other. Because you do not know this fact, or are choosing to ignore it, I can not give any credence to anything else you may have to say on the subject of pvp. Im not trying to be insulting here, but this is a FACT. Put armor back to 70% absolute cap, and the problems in PVP are solved for the most part. Also...most creatures are still in nerf mode... the deves weakend them for the combat ballance way to early.. there was a time when the creatures on endo and danthimir often had medium or heavy armor and were truely hard, buffed or not..

But.. Im gettign off topic.. the question here is not if buffs should/should not be in pvp, but wether buff bots are helpfull or not. I say they are. I say they should give bonuses to ATK entertainers and let those who choose afk play styles, because as much as you dont like it, it is a play style, continue to play their way. The things your advocating remove some one elses free choice and enjoyment, just so you can "enhance" your own.

Isendel

Sat Sep 11, 2004 4:33 am

#160

Because that is not the scope of this argument.

As far as the live game goes, its what you make of it.. If your not satasfied with it, maby you are palying the wrong game. Maybe a chat room would suit your needs better. I dont know, I dont know you. I have fun with the live game as an entertainer, but I also do other things.

You have not shown any real harm caused to you by buff bots, what I am getting here is alot of you are jelous because your not getting the attention you feel you deserve and are not able to force people to come watch you any more, they now an alternative. I think this is good. Any thing to increse choice can be good. Each to their own... the social players will seek you out, and the ones who are not social or just dont like live entertainer for what ever reason will not have to. I think thats a good thing. Some people just dont like dealing with the entertainer crowd, some do. I have met a good many rude entertainers, and a good many nice ones. The problem is for healing and such you were often forced to deal with the rude one if you wanted healing, where as if you are treated badly by a doc its generaly easy to find a different one, or become one.. because doc is a good addition to any combat template. Do not make the mistake of comparing your buffs to doc buffs. Making doc buffs is on an order of dificulty nothing in this class even approches, so any comparisons of the two are pointless.

Mind buffs should be more wide spread then regular buffs for the simple reason that mind is the only unhealable pool and thus gives certain classes a huge advantage if ther were no mind buffs. Therefore mind buffs are essential.

In any event your class is not "destroyed" by buff bots, and more or less functions as it always has, with a few enhancements. All that is needed is some more benefits to being an entertainer.. Content, and the salary system I think are good ideas. Forceing an unwilling audience to have no alternative but to seek you out for what they need will not make you liked, it will only server to increse the anti entertainer feelings on the servers, which im very sorry to say is quite strong on the two servers i play on.... Why is that i wonder. Maby we can discuss why people dont like enteretainers on another thread.. I cant figure that one out..

Any who.. I will close by saying chill. The entertainer game is what it is. Content and salary will make it better, and bonuses will help you get the attention you seem to crave. I really would like a middle ground of some type, but one that does not include functional afk play is not acceptable to me or a large number of players. I hope the devs at least pole all the players before doing any thign drastic.

Taewyn

Sat Sep 11, 2004 7:49 am

#161

Any who.. I will close by saying chill. The entertainer game is what it is. Content and salary will make it better, and bonuses will help you get the attention you seem to crave. I really would like a middle ground of some type, but one that does not include functional afk play is not acceptable to me or a large number of players. I hope the devs at least pole all the players before doing any thign drastic.

Not one of the Dancers here "craves" attention....I am sure most can do without the "attention" they get in game...

However, as a social support class, they do "need" a definable role in game...A role which can be preformed by actually *playing* and interacting.

That role is healing and buffing, however, if somone can perform this role AFK, then the need to be "playing" this class diminshes...How many people would pick up novice medic if they could buy a droid that could use stim D's? How many Armor Smiths could make a decent living if Armor did not require resources and could be crafted 100% AFK....No armor smith could, the economy could be flooded with armor in just a few days by guild mules who AFK craft armor all day...

So you see, mudflation of *anything* in a game, whether it be a resources, a commodity or even service (like healing BF/buffing) will eventually lead the the decline is said class that can perform or produceservices/items....

Dancers on a whole face a plight...Their "play style" is litterally being replaced by AFK bots who are run 24/7. No other class in game has to deal with competition from non-player bots, why should dancers have too?

I want fairness for all if AFK is allowed....I want AFK created armor, some AFK doc buffers at every star port...I want to log in and be able to kill everything within 30 seconds without any human interaction whatsoever....Because thats "fair", after all I pay 15$ a month right? I "deserve" this....

Sorry, this is an MMO...Get used to relying on others....If you do not like that then I suggest getting one of the myriad number of single player games out there.

Message Edited by Taewyn on 09-11-2004 10:11 AM

Taewyn Alsan Lt Colonel in service of the Empire

Taewyn and Oqua's "As you like it" Armor and Clothing store. On Naboo, right outside of Kaadara Location: +5729 +6376.

Drygo

Sat Sep 11, 2004 8:43 am

#162

Oh boy.

Isendel, I have done my best to reason with you. I have given you counterpoint after counterpoint, most of which you haven't responded to. You are completely unbending and insulting and blind to the reality of the situation. Instead of actually responding to most ofour points, all you say is "nope, you'rewrong, you haven't proven anything." Yet you state your opinions as fact. And, it seems to me that you're actually the one who hasn't proven anything. Yet when you do say something, I actually respond to what you say andoffer a counterpoint. You don't. And you accuse us of not wanting to find a middle ground. Okayyyyy. I'm done with you.

Oh...and one more thing. If you think that your "arguments" are helping your cause, they aren't. The way you present yourself is insulting, illogical, and completely unworthy of debate, and any person with a lick of intelligence (such as the devs who actually create this game) can see through this lack of logic and are not going to be swayed by your "vigorous defence" of the poor buffbot afk "playstyle."

Of course, I don't expect you to understand what I'm saying here...or to stop posting. But, hey, just wanted to formalize my "goodbye."

- I support hawtpants

PoetDancer

Sat Sep 11, 2004 9:16 am

#163

Isendel wrote:

Because that is not the scope of this argument.

As far as the live game goes, its what you make of it.. If your not satasfied with it, maby you are palying the wrong game. Maybe a chat room would suit your needs better. I dont know, I dont know you. I have fun with the live game as an entertainer, but I also do other things.

You have not shown any real harm caused to you by buff bots, what I am getting here is alot of you are jelous because your not getting the attention you feel you deserve and are not able to force people to come watch you any more, they now an alternative. I think this is good. Any thing to increse choice can be good. Each to their own... the social players will seek you out, and the ones who are not social or just dont like live entertainer for what ever reason will not have to. I think thats a good thing. Some people just dont like dealing with the entertainer crowd, some do. I have met a good many rude entertainers, and a good many nice ones. The problem is for healing and such you were often forced to deal with the rude one if you wanted healing, where as if you are treated badly by a doc its generaly easy to find a different one, or become one.. because doc is a good addition to any combat template. Do not make the mistake of comparing your buffs to doc buffs. Making doc buffs is on an order of dificulty nothing in this class even approches, so any comparisons of the two are pointless.

Mind buffs should be more wide spread then regular buffs for the simple reason that mind is the only unhealable pool and thus gives certain classes a huge advantage if ther were no mind buffs. Therefore mind buffs are essential.

In any event your class is not "destroyed" by buff bots, and more or less functions as it always has, with a few enhancements. All that is needed is some more benefits to being an entertainer.. Content, and the salary system I think are good ideas. Forceing an unwilling audience to have no alternative but to seek you out for what they need will not make you liked, it will only server to increse the anti entertainer feelings on the servers, which im very sorry to say is quite strong on the two servers i play on.... Why is that i wonder. Maby we can discuss why people dont like enteretainers on another thread.. I cant figure that one out..

Any who.. I will close by saying chill. The entertainer game is what it is. Content and salary will make it better, and bonuses will help you get the attention you seem to crave. I really would like a middle ground of some type, but one that does not include functional afk play is not acceptable to me or a large number of players. I hope the devs at least pole all the players before doing any thign drastic.

First of all, you have shown contempt for my question to you. Its obvious you don't care about preserving the live game. You refuse to answer my question because it will expose you for what you are: a person who feels that entertainment does not and never should have had a place in the game.

Because you just assume that players are going to keep on playing this thing live like they always have done. Well I can prove that they are leaving the game in droves, and they aren't coming back. Now you may not be concerned about this, but I am. They are leaving the game because of the disgusting environment out there that a very few, determined, and self-rightetous powergamers have made for us. Not the majority. Not the novice marksman trying to make his way in this thing who is trying to enjoy the simulation the way that SoE wanted it to be enjoyed. Just a few who want to turn this simulation into a Star Wars version of Counterstrike. Because what kind of argument are you going to make when we are all gone, and SoE comes around and says, "we are going to eliminate these professions from the game due to the fact thathardly anyoneplays them?"

I know what you'll do. You'll cheer and say, "good riddance" like all the other converted Counterstrike players, exploiters, six account subscribers, and high end template leveragers. Because you never, ever, EVER wanted to find a place for live entertainment in this game. You only wanted to find a place for your buffbot. You could care less what happens to us.

Entertainers, as the rulebook says on page 26, "rely on the goodwill of other players." Well I have to tell you, Isendel, that goodwill is getting more difficult to find. And it may be naiive of SoE to think that we should expect the self-righteous powergamers who wish to shape this game the way they want to suddenly be providers of goodwill. In fact, those sorts have more incentive to promote ill will toward us. Because once we are gone, then SoE will have to come in and say, "since there is nobody playing and enjoying these professions, we realize now that this type of profession is something that was a mistake to implement, and therefore, we are eliminating these professions and giving their functions top doctors and chefs."

So again, I ask you. Why should the buffbot owners care about preserving the live game? Why should the servers care about preserving the live game? Because its dying fast. And mark my words, when you all win this battle for unattended play, the next step is to eliminate these professions entirely. Where else will it go at that point? Buffbots alone do not give the patrons, the developers, and the subscribers any reasons to enhance or somehow promote these professions. They only give the patrons, the development staff, and the subscribers the impression that it was a mistake to include them at all.

Message Edited by PoetDancer on 09-11-2004 11:19 AM

Madame Sirii Ajaan
August 2003-September 15, 2005
"There is a difference between being /watched and being WATCHED."

Utess

Sat Sep 11, 2004 2:07 pm

#164

Isendel wrote:

Dreamland you do not know what your talking about on this issue.... I am sorry to say... Buffs are not the problem in pvp.. It is the armor.. Before armor broke the 70% level there was NO problem in pvp, the various claseses did pleanty of damage to each other.

Just wanted to chime in here then run <.< Its not just armor, its buffs + armor. Its armor because the devs never thought we would get resistances so high, and it is buffs because buffs defeat the entire point of armor "encumbrance".

Without buffs, how many people do you think would wear full heavy suits of composite all the time?

I constantly find the main two arguements against stopping unattended play to be:

1) We might not be able to find someone to heal our BF and mind wounds

2) We might not be able to get buffs 24/7.

The first issue is a valid one although I don't think it is going to be the concern most people think

The second issue isn't valid in any way shape or form for an arguement.

As has been stated many times, buffs are not necessary. The whole situation has devolved into a "so if all your friends jump off a cliff, do you?" thingy. Yes, when everyone else has buffs it applies pressure on you to do the same to be able to compete. But when the situation changes for *everyone* how does it remain a necessity?

The arguement against removing unattended play because it will give some an "advantage" without keeping the playing field level is false becausethe effects of removing unattended playapply equally to all players and the whole combat system is changing soon anyway.

Message Edited by Utess on 09-11-2004 05:16 PM

________________________________

'Tess
- Utess Pero: Master Entertainer, Master Dancer, Master Musician, ID
- Andria Pasretti: Master Artisan, Master Merchant, Teras Kasi Master
- Tatiyana Karkuf: Master Medic, Master Combat Medic, Master Doctor

Dreamland

Sat Sep 11, 2004 2:21 pm

#165

Isendel wrote:

Dreamland you do not know what your talking about on this issue.... I am sorry to say... Buffs are not the problem in pvp.. It is the armor.. Before armor broke the 70% level there was NO problem in pvp, the various claseses did pleanty of damage to each other. Because you do not know this fact, or are choosing to ignore it, I can not give any credence to anything else you may have to say on the subject of pvp. Im not trying to be insulting here, but this is a FACT. Put armor back to 70% absolute cap, and the problems in PVP are solved for the most part. Also...most creatures are still in nerf mode... the deves weakend them for the combat ballance way to early.. there was a time when the creatures on endo and danthimir often had medium or heavy armor and were truely hard, buffed or not..

But.. Im gettign off topic.. the question here is not if buffs should/should not be in pvp, but wether buff bots are helpfull or not. I say they are. I say they should give bonuses to ATK entertainers and let those who choose afk play styles, because as much as you dont like it, it is a play style, continue to play their way. The things your advocating remove some one elses free choice and enjoyment, just so you can "enhance" your own.

Armor never had a 70% cap, the armorsmiths learned to make higher and higher resistantarmor, Armor of this high a percentage was unuseable because of it's encumbrance... The availability of buffs made it possible to wear armor that would not be wearable due to its obscene encumbrance. This is a fact, I have been here for over a year, and watched all these changes take place.Many other people have told you this in here but you refuse to acknowladge it. Please go and educate yourself on the subject before you continue to post the same broken record insults over and over and over again.

Buffs make any ham costs asociated with special attacks completely invalid. so a high damage high ham cost special can be spammed nonstop which it was never meant to be. This is another issue being adressed in the combat revamp as special costs will no longer come from the main ham pool but a secondary pool that is unhealable and recharges at a very fast rate, to create a sense of tempo to combat as youll have to back off and recharge your specials before you can use them again.

These are all facts that you would know if you followed the development forums in any way which i in fact do, and have done for over a year now. And the fact that this is changing will directly affect the role that buffs take in pvp including their necesity or lack thereof.

Message Edited by Dreamland on 09-11-2004 02:23 PM

Message Edited by Dreamland on 09-11-2004 02:30 PM

Message Edited by Dreamland on 09-11-2004 02:31 PM

Hvzeda

Sat Sep 11, 2004 3:30 pm

#166

Unfortunately, there is never going to be any solutions to this issue. If buffbots are eliminated, the buffbots owners will probably yell and call the live entertainers whiners and crybabies (aren't we seeing this already). If buffbots stay, then current live entertainers will feel betrayed and leave the profession thus create even a greater need of afk/buffbots performers.

A history lesson:

Entertainers were very popular at the beginning. Dancers by far outnumbered the musicians. Many cantinas were full or had a large number of performers. A few places would be desolate, but we were trying to explore a new game. If you state there were not a numerous number of entertainers at the beginning, either you were in one of those desolate areas (Mos Entha comes to mind for me) or you happened to be on a time when most people were off.

The hologrind path: Those funny forgotten artifacts told people a path that they should take. Everyone join the jedi rush to become the first jedi. This meant massive grinding and grinding as long as possible. Thus the invention of the afk performer. When performers were atk, patrons felt compelled to tip for services because many entertainers are socialable individuals (I said many, not all!). Human nature, people like to hoard wealth, thus afk performers allow people to receive BF and mind healing without any remorse of not tipping because how is someone not at the computer going to know you used their generous service. This began the first wave of live entertainers leaving the profession.

Mind buff arrival: With the arrival this ability, live entertainers rejoiced. Though were we depleted from the afk attack and the lack of a viable income (like doing entertainer missions pay well (sarcasm here)). People didn't like paying for buffs (again back to the hoarding of wealth). So many purchase second accounts to create a buffbot (like many individuals created second accounts for a mayor). This create a division and began to interfere with the best way live entertainers could make money. Buffbots don't need it since it is a secondary account and the primary account is the money maker.

History lesson over.

Only reason buffbots fill a need is because they help to destroy the profession in the first place so to argue that they fill a need you also need to acknowledge they help to destroy the profession. This is why many entertainers are upset. Many non-entertainers haven't attempted acknowledge this (or they don't care as long as there is someone to heal their BF and mind wounds).

I'm not here to say you play your character this way or that way, but you also don't have that right to tell me how to play my character. Agreed?

I am willing to allow buffbots (yes I am a master dancer) but with these ideas:

Buffbots and afk performers can only perfom in cantinas in which they are placed on the admin access to the cantina (this allows player cities to decide if they want buffbots for their residents or not - I afk dance to anyone that happens to wander in or for the residents of our city but I only buff when I'm ATK - too lazy to write a buffing macro).

Mind buffing can only be done in cantinas (this makes player city cantinas a bit more popular).

AFK performers do not gain experience.

Buffs by live entertainers get a bonus to applying buff.

Buffs by afk entertainers are capped at 2 hours and at 100% of attribute.

There will probably be owners of buffbots that won't like this and live entertainers that won't like this, but AT LEAST I have attempt to find a middle ground and begin a starting point for a discussion. Take this opinion for what it is worth.

Kyrie
I came into the SWG universe as an entertainer
and performed to a crowded cantina in Mos Espa.
I will use a respec and become an entertainer again,
pull out my last pet from my creature handler days
and dance in an empty cantina in Mos Espa and disconnect from the game forever.

Nacoa

Sat Sep 11, 2004 7:14 pm

#167

Hvzeda wrote:
There will probably be owners of buffbots that won't like this and live entertainers that won't like this, but AT LEAST I have attempt to find a middle ground and begin a starting point for a discussion. Take this opinion for what it is worth.

Just wondering: Why find a middle ground?

Should we find a middle ground between the credit dupers and the non-dupers? I'm not saying buffbots are as bad, but why should there be a middle ground between "players" that damage the game and ones that don't? Why should SOE should say "Ok, you can damage the game some"?

The pro-buffbot argument seems to always be about availability. I'm well aware of this, because I used to run a buffbot, due to the same availability problems. Then the entertainers on all of the servers stepped up to try and address that problem by creating an entertainer channel on each server so that people looking for a buff can find it.

Walking into the cantina looking for a buff is just like walking into the med center for a doc buff. You're not going to find a live entertainer to give you one, even though it's the logical place to get one. But if you use the entertainer channel, you'll find one, and you'll likely convince them to come to wherever you're hunting, so you don't lose a chunk of your 2-hour buff traveling to your hunting grounds. Heck, bring a scout along and you can get buffed in your hunting grounds.

So, I'd say the availability issue is really a combination of 3 things: Bugs in key code like /register, and players not using the tools the entertainers provide to find a buff, and poor dev decisions in the past like the holo-craze that drove entertainers out of the profession.

The "they're needed for PvP" argument is really a side-argument on the availability problem. Use the tools provided, and you'll find your buffs.

The only other argument I'm hearing is "I pay my money, so I get to play however I want!!". To which I say, "no, you don't". You can't credit dupe. You can't use a cheat code to give you god mode. You can't instantly master any profession. You can't use more than 250 skill points. You can't give yourself a billion credits and a 10,000 damage weapon. And so on.

There are all sorts of restrictions in the game already, which will keep you from playing "the way you want" even though you pay SOE $15/mo. But please use this argument to continue advancing your cause, since it'll fail miserably. See, you're forgetting that the entertainers pay their $15/mo too, and deserve a playable game for it.

(And before someone says "I pay $30/mo for my buffbot and main", I'd like to remind them there are plenty of other people who pay for more characters than that, including myself. So please, make it be that the most $$/mo gets the most say on how the game will be played.)

I'd really like to hear another pro-buffbot argument. I mean, the decision on eliminating buffbots looks absolutely trivial to me, since the only valid pro-buffbot argument I've heard is worries about availability. I think that'll be fixed by supply and demand. For example, there's enough demand for doc buffs to create a lot of Doctors. There'll be enough demand for entertainer buffs to create a lot of entertainers. If it turns out I'm wrong, then the devs should try to solve the problem. But I think we should let market forces take a crack at the problem first, before installing an artificial means to address it.

Message Edited by Nacoa on 09-11-2004 10:15 PM

I'm baaaaaack
And it looks like I'll be going again.

Isendel

Sun Sep 12, 2004 5:18 am

#168

No Drygo, you have not tried to reason with me. You have taken a hard stance on this issue, and have shown that you are willing to make no compramise on this issue. You seem from your posts that you do not pvp, and dont care about that play style, and most of you wont concede that the loss of buff bots could adversely effect other players. I have answered all of your questions, except that concerning the "live" game.

Lets explore that... The live game assumes role playing, and im sorry to say, that is not the solo realm of the entertainer classes. In fact they make up only one small part of Starwars Role playing.. At the moment that is the "bar scene" so to speak... Thats not the end all and be all of roleplaying.. Not every one whos a combat profession spends all their time killing... There are tons of oportunity to roleplay...

Now to answer what Dream said.. I doubt VERY highly they will remove any class in this game.. There will all ways be some one willing to play them. I play my dancer as a roleplayer when I choose that actavity for that day, on other days I hunt, or pvp, or explore.. I love it all...

The point on fact is.. Until the combat rebalance hits mind buffs are a nessity, there are not enough entertainers to buff every one, there never have been, so buff bots have a usefull role. Thats a fact. I dont like it, but its there none the less. Id love to see them make it so i did not have to be buffed ever.. but i dont see that happening..

The reason afk play works with musicians, and not with other classes, is because they are so different... Entertainers do not deal in any sort of tangable resourse.. Having an armorsmith for instance, make tons of armor would not be possible, because the resourses required, and the effect that would have on the economy. By comparison. Afk dancers dont have much effect on the economy at large.

My argument is not from the perspective that "i wanna do what ever i want", its fromt he "No new restrictions please" view.

Reachwind

Sun Sep 12, 2004 7:03 am

#169

Isendel wrote:

The reason afk play works with musicians, and not with other classes, is because they are so different... Entertainers do not deal in any sort of tangable resourse.. Having an armorsmith for instance, make tons of armor would not be possible, because the resourses required, and the effect that would have on the economy. By comparison. Afk dancers dont have much effect on the economy at large.

My argument is not from the perspective that "i wanna do what ever i want", its fromt he "No new restrictions please" view.

AFK dancers have a HUGE effect on the economy you are just not able to see it because you are in the middle of exploiting it.

By placing an afk entertainer and getting free services you skip having to ever pay for these services. You also make it possible for any other person playing while you have your afk entertainer online able to skip having to pay.

Fact; In the current system one single afk entertainer can heal every single player on a server. Every single player character that is online, unattended and executing either the dance or music system can heal you. This completely eliminates that "need" and that role in the game. An unattended character can't set a price, can't make sure it recieves payment.

You said, 'My argument is not from the perspective that "i wanna do what ever i want", its fromt he "No new restrictions please" view.' Well my response to that is... Your argument is really that you have a great exploit that is working to help you cheat the game and you aren't willing to give it up because the advantage it is granting you is too good to let go.

Dancer Archive

Thread: Pro/Anti AFK/Bot/Macro All Purpose Sticky